Stealing signs and pitchers rubbing stuff on baseballs to improve their grip are one thing. Having someone from the Astros organization sit in the media area, without credentials, with a camera is something else. I would expect MLB to handle this swiftly and without much fanfare unless there is more to this story.
Astros caught cheating in Game 1?
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
I believe that at the MLB level, most PITCH OUTS AND PICKOFFS are called from the dugouts for some teams.
Still waiting for the original poster’s cite that dugouts call most pitches these days, because I still find it astonishing.
No, I might have been unclear but I did not mean to equate that with pine tar. My point was really just that I don't see stealing signs as a major infraction, I think it's fair to say that it's always been generally considered "part of the game." I understand if the details on how they did it put it on another level for you. Depending on what other details come out, I might consider it to be a more serious offense as well.
At the very least, I'm glad the Red Sox are smart enough to switch up their signals.
And one loud bang off the scoreboard is a catch by Kemp.
He would be looking in from a different angle. Anyone who has something that needs to be hidden would make sure a zoom lense from across the field could not see it as thats the obvious look in. They probably looking for video monitors, or perhaps anyone with an apple watch or phone. I am sure they were looking in from across the field as well. Mostly a fishing expedition I would guess
Maybe just bang for confirmed fastball. No bang means anything else is coming. Or location in/out, up/down. Depends on hitters preference. Every little bit helps
Maybe bang just loud enough for on deck hitter who then calls out a code word phrase unique to each hitter and changes by inning
So many ways
Wow.
First Carlos Correa breaks into the St. Louis Cardinals database AND IS STILL PLAYING WITHOUT SUSPENSION and now this???
First Carlos Correa breaks into the St. Louis Cardinals database AND IS STILL PLAYING WITHOUT SUSPENSION and now this???
You are correct to my knowledge pitches being called form the dugout at the MLB level are rare to non-existent.
As a general rule, MLB players don't at all mind when pitchers use some substance (legal or illegal) to get a better grip on the ball, because it reduces the chances of the pitchers losing control and drilling the hitter (which normally neither party wants). So what Barnes was accused of (like Buchholz several years ago) is about the lowest level of "cheating" accusation that exists in the game - no players (hitters or pitchers) really have a problem with it, for safety reasons mainly.
Ain’t cheating, ain’t trying, fun that they got caught and if the Pats did it, the reaction and coverage would be 100x. Same old, same old.
If the Dodgers suspected something last year, and the Astros actually were cheating, wouldn’t Cora know about it? And if he knew about it, what would or should he do now?
Perhaps, precisely what he is currently doing.
Suppose they were doing something serious and he knew about it? Not a good idea to bring it up now, just take countermeasures.
But wouldn't the best counter-measures not reveal that you knew but take advantage of selective use of misinformation? Like Churchill sacrificed Coventry, perhaps Cora told Workman that he would take one for Papi and Nation in Game 1. Finally, we're getting at the real baseball analytics in this place!
This is quite possibly the case. The Indians complained to MLB and alerted the Sox, but Cora & Co. maybe weren't going to say anything to anyone. MLB on its own found enough suspicious activity.
Based on his comments in the postgame, Cora doesn't trust anyone. Maybe that's based on what he experienced last season in Houston, maybe not.
No we're not the Colts. If we were the Colts, we would have lost the rest of the games of the series by a combined score of 28-0. And then in our next game against the Astros, we'd run some kind of botched triple steal to run ourselves out of an inning. (Sorry, that was the best I could think of to compare to the fake punt).
![[icon]](https://sosh-cdn.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/data/avatars/m/9/9352.jpg?1560259877){kind=avatar}
Bingo. Hang selfie sticks over the edge of the dugout
Of course this requires purchasing/owning those horrid devices...
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I think it’s somewhere in the middle. I’ve noticed a lot of the catcher looking into dugout before putting signs down in this series, to the point it drew my attention because I didn’t think it happened much anymore.
They can even be fake cardboard cameras. Or a $10 disposable. Point them into the dugout. Point them at the players as they leave the field.
Lots of signals are visual. Hand on knee fastball, arms crossed curve, etc. If you can figure out who is sending i to the catcher the on deck guy should be able to see it.
I hope this story goes away quickly - partly because the Red Sox had the embarrassing Apple watch fiasco that will be brought up in every current story about this, and partly because I don't want to give the Astros and their fans anything to fuel an 'Us against the world' narrative. If the Red Sox win this series, I want it to be because they beat the defending champions, period.
1. What's the use of a camera in stealing/relaying signs. Nil.
2. What's the use of a camera in determining signals. A lot...but signals are stolen all the time and every team should do the same.
3. Catchers changing up the sign is a clear indication that many teams figure signs are being stolen.
4. TV often shows the catcher's signs on telephoto. Access to that feed combined with some sort of instantaneous tips from the bench or crowd could...
5. But really, how difficult would that be? How much time is there between recognizing a sign, signalling a batter, and the pitch?
6. Players change teams all the time - so sign stealing can't be kept a secret. Sometimes coaches change teams, maybe even from the same one being accused.
I need to know what Cleveland and Oakland (and MLB) thinks is happening. It's all too vague for me.
2. What's the use of a camera in determining signals. A lot...but signals are stolen all the time and every team should do the same.
3. Catchers changing up the sign is a clear indication that many teams figure signs are being stolen.
4. TV often shows the catcher's signs on telephoto. Access to that feed combined with some sort of instantaneous tips from the bench or crowd could...
5. But really, how difficult would that be? How much time is there between recognizing a sign, signalling a batter, and the pitch?
6. Players change teams all the time - so sign stealing can't be kept a secret. Sometimes coaches change teams, maybe even from the same one being accused.
I need to know what Cleveland and Oakland (and MLB) thinks is happening. It's all too vague for me.
Thankfully Machado's antics have sucked all the oxygen away from this. It's easier for the media to debate dirty vs. non-dirty than some cheating scandal.
Good question. I definitely saw it with no one on second (as well as dual sets of signs, touching body parts Varitek style then dropping fingers when there was a guy on second) but I can’t 100% say there was or was not a guy on first when I noticed catchers looking into the dugout, mid at bat. I’ll admit my own ignorance on not exactly knowing where you’re going with this.
Upthread.
This turf was trodden to bedrock back in the days when Varitek wielded a noodle bat: “If he’s so friggen good at calling a game, let him do it from the dugout and put someone in the lineup who can hit!”
It doesn’t work that way in MLB.
The only thing missing is a closing quote from Brian McCann ensuring us all that the Houston Astros will guarantee all teams play baseball the right way.
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That's Houston's excuse? *They* were cheating to make sure *we* weren't cheating? The FBI investigation into Kavanaugh was more thorough.
That’s some fine “investigative” work by Mlb
It seems like the MLB thought - "How did Goodell handle his 'scandals'? Lets do the exact opposite and try to make it go away instead of staying in the news for 2 years"
If it was, the Sox would probably deserve it - they were caught last year using the Apple watches and paid a fine, so another documented incident of rule-breaking would likely draw Manfred's ire.
Right. Less than 24 hours after the story broke, its been dealt with, and the process of putting it in the rear-view mirror is underway. There's almost no way to feed more oxygen to that fire.
My guess is they know rampant "cheating" is happening by every club and they don't really want or care to stop things like this. The only way around it is headsets for every player.
That's kind of my point, although it wasn't made very clear. We paid a fine. For a first offense. For a team doing something along the same lines, we get "nothing to see here"?
Do you really care whether or not the Astros pay a fine or not? If we take it as a given there was never going to be a punishment that affects the on-field product, why does it matter?
So, what's the back story? The guy is looking into the Red Sox dugout to see if the Ipads are connected to the web and showing live TV (you know, like the live TV being shown at the box seats right next to the dugout at Fenway). Let's assume the report is correct. What is he looking for to photograph as evidence?
That's his point. No one cares about a fine so there's nothing to see here.
edit: Or not. A fine is the same as nothing, really.
No I don't care and it doesn't matter. I just want consistency in handing them out for the same or similar offenses.
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Since we're all just guessing about some meaningless bullshit, I'll add mine:
The pictures show the guy with Crane. Not anyone else in the organization. The guy is probably the ne'er-do-well nephew of a guy that Crane knows from the country club. Crane needs to do the guy a solid.
"Hey, Spaulding, just take pictures of the Sox dugout to make sure they aren't doing anything." There is virtually nothing that a guy taking pictures can actually accomplish. If this was 20 years ago, there'd be no film in the camera.
Yes, I made all that up. I dont know. I dont care. I dont care if the entire city of Houston spends all its tax revenues on a 50 mile high billboard that says "Matt Barnes Cheats." Its done. If people want to give the Astros players all-in-fun camera grief, I'm all for it.