Arsenal 2014-2015: Ugh. Your banter stinks.
- Thread starter sachmoney
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That might have been the most un-Arsenal game all season. Red card but against the other team, dives not rewarded even in an intimidating environment, no last-minute goal allowed, a huge defensive mistake was the deciding factor but it wasn't an Arsenal CB, etc etc.
Nice win. Oliver was outstanding today. Rooney and Fellaini were the only United players who played well, aside from De Gea who isn't human.
Zomp said:
Thanks Zomp. I thought you guys were the better side in the first half and that the lineup with Rooney up front and Fellaini also pushed forward continued to work well, really much better than the various lineups with RVP and/or Falcao in there. I don't know whether those half-time subs were injury related but I don't understand the logic of them.
blueline said:
That is crazy (and sad).
Winning at both Manchester clubs is a huge step forward in terms of getting that kind of monkey off our backs.
I just wish we hadn't fucked it up so badly in Champions League but oh well...
Not sure as I thought Shaw and Herrera were both bright spots. Also while Januzaj may be very talented his decision making needs to improve for him to be considered a full time starter. I'm starting to get flashbacks of Nani.Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
I'm over the moon about the win - and can't quite believe Arsenal felt almost comfortable toward the end of the match - but I fear that Ozil's performance will be used as further ammunition with which to undermine him. Monreal's goal came in spite of Ozil's pass, not because of it: gifted acres of space and an opportunity to drive into the box, he took one touch in that direction before spraying a weak, slightly backward pass to the right wing and Oxlade-Chamberlain (who luckily showed far more attacking intent). And on several other occasions he also seemed to have found great positions near the goal and tried to do anything but shoot. I know several NBA analysts have have called Dennis Schroeder "the German Rondo", but on tonight's evidence that crown seems to belong to Ozil.
Really? I had the opposite impression. Yes the pass to Chamberlain was a bit behind him, but he would have had at least one assist if not for de God, and I thought he was gritty (at least for his standards) and well-positioned in defense.
I felt we looked waaaay better defensively in the 4-1-4-1 with Ozil on the right (after Ramsey came in) than in the 4-2-3-1 with Ozil as #10. It was the right tactic for this match, as having both Ramsey and Cazorla in midfield allowed Coquelin to safely double Fellaini, bracketing him in front with Mertesacker behind. Given that most of United's offensive moves - and only goal - came on crosses or long balls, it slowed a lot of their attacking capability. I have a hunch that if Ramsey had been full fitness, the team would have come out in a 4-1-4-1 to begin with.
I felt we looked waaaay better defensively in the 4-1-4-1 with Ozil on the right (after Ramsey came in) than in the 4-2-3-1 with Ozil as #10. It was the right tactic for this match, as having both Ramsey and Cazorla in midfield allowed Coquelin to safely double Fellaini, bracketing him in front with Mertesacker behind. Given that most of United's offensive moves - and only goal - came on crosses or long balls, it slowed a lot of their attacking capability. I have a hunch that if Ramsey had been full fitness, the team would have come out in a 4-1-4-1 to begin with.
The Ozil haters can go suck a dick; he was actually pretty quiet in this match but he's scored 3 goals and had 5 assists since coming back from injury and he made Daley Blind's life pretty difficult tonight.
I am stoked about this win, fuck me, that was great.
I am stoked about this win, fuck me, that was great.
FWIW, I love Ozil and am definitely not a "hater" - I just thought tonight was the sort of match which can be particularly used against him, as several of his highest-profile actions played right into something of the negative biases some people have against him. That's all.
Man, it feels good to win two matches in Manchester in a calendar year.
Man, it feels good to win two matches in Manchester in a calendar year.
So it was super loud at the bar so I'm still unclear exactly what happened with Di Maria
Was he sent off for the dive + touching the referee or was he sent off for dive + a 1st half yellow that I thought actually went to Herrera but Fox showed it as Di Maria originally?
Was he sent off for the dive + touching the referee or was he sent off for dive + a 1st half yellow that I thought actually went to Herrera but Fox showed it as Di Maria originally?
Dive + tugging the ref's shirt.
It wasn't easy, I don't know if they were simulcasting the BBC but they were confused as well. They saw the shirt tug pretty quickly, but it was only after the match when they showed an alternate camera showing the ref pulling out the second yellow.
It wasn't easy, I don't know if they were simulcasting the BBC but they were confused as well. They saw the shirt tug pretty quickly, but it was only after the match when they showed an alternate camera showing the ref pulling out the second yellow.
Huge win for Arsenal. It was one of the fixtures where form can go out the window. Both clubs knew going in they had a great chance of silverwear and UTD were up for it. But...The Utd cabinet will be bare for another season. The DI maria sending off was a bit harsh, but if you get one yellow, keep your hands off the ref...then gesticulate in a manner known only to Christians and Italian men.
Arsneal have shown they can come oop North and hold their own, stay strong, play their game, keep it tight at the back and get a result. Wengers transfer war chest has been halved as a result but we must stay in the present.
The purists would like to see a Bradford v Villa final. Pish and tish to that, i want a Liverpool V Arsenal borefest, which is what it will be if the two big teams make it to the final.
Arsneal have shown they can come oop North and hold their own, stay strong, play their game, keep it tight at the back and get a result. Wengers transfer war chest has been halved as a result but we must stay in the present.
The purists would like to see a Bradford v Villa final. Pish and tish to that, i want a Liverpool V Arsenal borefest, which is what it will be if the two big teams make it to the final.
I agree. I was very impressed with Oliver rightly calling simulation. That takes guts, but it's exactly what we need from refs nowadays.Zomp said:
And kudos to you Zomp for your magnanimity.
sachmoney said:
Coincidence?blueline said:
God those kits are fucking hideous but maybe lucky.
Stanley Steamer said:
The only thing that he may have screwed up after watching it again last night was the Arsenal right back's second yellow, but then if he calls that he probably sends off Rojo for his challenge on Santi Cazorla.
I'm still baffled as to why LVG subbed off Shaw and Herrera at halftime. I felt United were edging it a bit in the first half and a lot of that had to do with the uptempo passing of Herrera and Shaw making runs with Ashley Young. I don't see any post match quotes indicating why they were taking off so if anyone has seen them please post.
sachmoney said:
Here's the situation on the pitch an instant after Ozil's pass to Oxlade-Chamberlain in the build-up for the first goal - given the space in front of him and Welbeck's run, I would humbly submit that passing to someone not even on the screen isn't the obvious choice here:
Here's the move right at the end of the game - Ozil has just received a marvelous diagonal through-ball from Sanchez which is running across him to the right, but instead of driving for goal or to the byline (albeit on his weaker right foot), he turned into traffic and allowed the two defenders near him to close him down:
Those aren't necessarily even criticisms of Ozil, at least not from my perspective - Arsenal scored a goal from the first move, and would have scored a goal from the second but for a fantastic De Gea save from Sanchez. My (poorly worded) point was to suggest that these are the sorts of high-profile moments which Ozil's detractors can use to say he's not good enough or doesn't want it bad enough...which I think is rubbish, but seems to be the established narrative of why Ozil has been disappointing for Arsenal over the last 18 months.
And for the record, I'm not such a miserable bastard that I couldn't take huge, huge delight at the win last night.
Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
All the English sides have looked amateurish in the CL. The Pot system has allowed Chelsea and Arsenal to have a better go, but nobody from England has been covering themselves in glory in Europe over the past few seasons. I honestly wouldn't be particularly negative on Arsenal, I don't think the PL is played at a level necessary to really have a go at the best sides in Europe right now. It's sort of depressing given all the money spent, but the results seem to speak for themselves.
teddykgb said:
True enough, although I'm not sure about the PL not being played at a high enough level as the reason. Actually, the general futility of English teams in Europe in the past few years is somewhat mysterious to me and probably deserves its own thread. The typical excuses for English teams sucking - not enough technical quality in the players, too many naive English managers, etc - don't really wash. Its one thing when we're talking about losing to Bayern/Barca/Real. But they don't really help explain why English teams can't beat the likes of Monaco, Besiktas, and Fiorentina.
Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
I'd love to debate it. I don't think it's technical quality so much as continental football generally evolving on a high pressing style that the English league just doesn't seem to have adopted for whatever reason. I feel that for all the bluster about English football being about work ethic and played at a faster pace, it is actually in some ways played at a slower pace, or at least one with more time on the ball than you see in nearly any league except Italy. England remains the home of the heroic, physical defender while most of Europe seems to be moving toward high lines and teams that compact the space in front of the defenders so that they need not be heroic. I feel almost dirty pointing to a difference between continental and English football, it's like the oldest trick in the book, but I do honestly believe that the top Prem teams just aren't accustomed to playing the style of football that they're facing on European nights. I know for a fact that my team doesn't, maybe I'm projecting it onto others, but I tend to think it's more or less the same for Chelsea and Arsenal as well.
teddykgb said:
I don't know. From what I understand, pressing and generally very high paced football has become relatively widespread in the Bundesliga, but I'm not sure that's true for Serie A, La Liga, or Ligue 1. Maybe I'm wrong (its not like I watch those leagues much, especially the lesser teams) but everybody always talks about there being much more time on the ball in Italy and Spain.
Part of me wonders whether it is the opposite - the combination of the pace/physicality of Premier League games and the greater quality of teams in the bottom half of the table making every match a difficult three points means that English teams often get to midweek games with more fatigued players and with managers that have had less time to prepare for that specific opponent. But I really have no clue. I'm just speculating.
Its also possible that its just the Anna Karenina principal and that every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way: ie, City has been performing poorly for reasons specific to their tactical setup, Arsenal has been performing poorly for reasons idiosyncratic to Wenger's approach to management, Liverpool did poorly this year due to young players that hadn't gelled yet, United is going through a bad patch in general, Tottenham had a manager that was completely new to European play, etc.
Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
I typically see the opposite. I distinctly remember an article when Ozil came (and I think another when Sanchez came) where Cazorla talked about how much more time he has on the ball in England than he did in Spain. It didn't really make sense to me, but he would know way better than I would.
I'm very EPL-biased in my soccer watching (except for international competition, which just isn't on the same level tactically), but the times I watch Barca or Real, it doesn't seem like they do any more pressing defensively than e.g. what we saw yesterday. They do tend to have better possession technique than any English teams, but I chalk that up to better players.
blueguitar322 said:
Really? Whenever players from other leagues struggle at all in their first year in the Premier League (ex: Ozil, Di Maria, Lamela), the pundits always talk about how the Premier League is faster and more physical and how you have less time on the ball than in those lollygagging, lazy Mediterranean countries where everybody just jogs around and takes a siesta at midfield.
I'm not saying that's necessarily true by some objective standard. But that is a huge narrative surrounding the Premier League.
The cliche about England that I always see is "but can he do it on a cold night in Stoke?"
But I also think suppose there could be a difference between fast-paced games (which I associate with back-and-forth, lots of counters) and quick defensive pressing. You can have less time on the ball in Spain and still have a slower-paced game. Or the opposite in England. But honestly I don't watch enough La Liga to have a well-informed opinion.
But I also think suppose there could be a difference between fast-paced games (which I associate with back-and-forth, lots of counters) and quick defensive pressing. You can have less time on the ball in Spain and still have a slower-paced game. Or the opposite in England. But honestly I don't watch enough La Liga to have a well-informed opinion.
Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
This gets my vote, along with the inherent noise in relatively small sample sizes. One club you didn't cite - Everton - has greatly overachieved in Europe relative to its league position, I think largely because Martinez has emphasized the Europa League more than most and perhaps built his team for that competition more than for the Premier League.
I do like that you inadvertently included United in a list of teams which struggled in Europe this season, though. :lol:
It is worthy of debate. It's kind of the elephant in the room for English football right now. You might be right about the high pressing game, but I see teams try to play that way in England, like Liverpool and City at times. There do not seem to be as many players who can toy with such a strategy, and play keep ball, nor do the refs tend to award the players with niggling fouls that can halt possession. The physical game of disruption, and the chaos it brings is perhaps rewarded more. I do feel the reffing plays a role in Europe, as if the English teams don't always appear to grasp how the refs might call a game differently in the CL. Physical play is not rewarded so much, but gamesmanship can and does play a role. I don't want to generalize too much, because like others, I rarely get to watch games outside the EPL and UCL, and MLS, which is even more brutish.
I agree that none of the English teams has looked great this year, but Chelsea has shown less naivete in their play. Of course, the Not Seemingly Happy One demands a fairly negative style that can stymie most opponents, and the Blues rarely boss the field so much as deny and counter with speed and rare moments of skill. They are true to their form, whereas City struggles to find theirs, at least in the CL. Arsenal is Arsenal, and Liverpool may yet figure it out, if only they can get back in.
I think the poor performance of English teams is little more than a lull though. In years past, they have had more than their share of teams in the quarters and semis, just not now. Given the buying power of the teams involved, it only seems likely in the future that the Brits will be able to say with more accuracy that theirs is the best league in Europe.
For now, p'shaw!
I agree that none of the English teams has looked great this year, but Chelsea has shown less naivete in their play. Of course, the Not Seemingly Happy One demands a fairly negative style that can stymie most opponents, and the Blues rarely boss the field so much as deny and counter with speed and rare moments of skill. They are true to their form, whereas City struggles to find theirs, at least in the CL. Arsenal is Arsenal, and Liverpool may yet figure it out, if only they can get back in.
I think the poor performance of English teams is little more than a lull though. In years past, they have had more than their share of teams in the quarters and semis, just not now. Given the buying power of the teams involved, it only seems likely in the future that the Brits will be able to say with more accuracy that theirs is the best league in Europe.
For now, p'shaw!
Luis Taint said:
Such a boss. He made United's midfield look slow, sloppy, and silly. Its amazing how well he has taken to the deeper lying box-to-box role. He's basically the player many people - myself included - have long hoped Wilshere would become.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esjr-RXc9q0
Also, here is the Ozil video. It wasn't a fantastic performance but I don't think there's much to complain about here - he was heavily involved in our most threatening moves, he didn't lose the ball in bad places, he got stuck in and helped out defensively, he drove the team forward and played a couple pretty nice through balls to Welbeck, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nScs6pO8Yr4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nScs6pO8Yr4
Looks like we're going to be hitting West Ham at just the right time. Both starting CBs are injured (Tomkins and Cole) and Enner Valencia just had a suspicious Paxton Crawfordesque injury, cutting his toe while stepping on a broken cup. That's in addition to also missing Andy Carroll and Carlton Cole upfront through injury and Jenko at RB because he can't be played against us.
On the other hand, the Ox is now out for four weeks:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/mar/12/alex-oxlade-chamberlain-arsenal-england-injury
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/mar/12/alex-oxlade-chamberlain-arsenal-england-injury
May be we'll actually see Theo. He's done well against West Ham historically, if memory serves. It was him and Podolski.
Arsenal 3-0 West Ham
Slow, almost boring game outside of the last 10 minutes and the final 10 seconds of the first half. Not the best team performance as Theo was rusty, Ozil wasn't as crisp as usual, and the fullbacks weren't handling West Ham's wing play as well as they could have. Man of the match for me might be Koscielny, he was a one-man wrecking crew on defense and frequently covered up for others' positional mistakes. Giroud also has a shout, his first goal was a cracker and he was involved in the other two goals (with one assist). Ramsey and Coquelin were also strong the whole game - I really like that pairing.
On the whole, this was a game against a critically weak West Ham team that we always should win. Not too much to complain about overall.
Arsenal are now in the midst of a strong run of form, albeit one with two emotionally trying moments. Since the New Years day loss to Southampton, Arsenal are:
Slow, almost boring game outside of the last 10 minutes and the final 10 seconds of the first half. Not the best team performance as Theo was rusty, Ozil wasn't as crisp as usual, and the fullbacks weren't handling West Ham's wing play as well as they could have. Man of the match for me might be Koscielny, he was a one-man wrecking crew on defense and frequently covered up for others' positional mistakes. Giroud also has a shout, his first goal was a cracker and he was involved in the other two goals (with one assist). Ramsey and Coquelin were also strong the whole game - I really like that pairing.
On the whole, this was a game against a critically weak West Ham team that we always should win. Not too much to complain about overall.
Arsenal are now in the midst of a strong run of form, albeit one with two emotionally trying moments. Since the New Years day loss to Southampton, Arsenal are:
- 8 wins, 1 loss in the Premier League, outscoring opponents 24-5 - but that loss was a difficult loss away to chief rival Tottenham
- 4 wins in the FA Cup, outscoring opponents 9-3
- 1 loss in the Champions League, which was a terrible loss at home
Coquelin has been outstanding, but I didn't realize just how otherworldly he's been. Out of PL players with 14 or more appearances, he's second with 4.4 tackles per 90 (with 75% success rate) and first with 3.9 interceptions per 90.
By comparison, Chelsea's Matic - who has been amazing - has 3.8 tackles per 90 (with 61% success) and 2.2 interceptions per 90.
By comparison, Chelsea's Matic - who has been amazing - has 3.8 tackles per 90 (with 61% success) and 2.2 interceptions per 90.
I had a thrilling Wales-Ireland Six Nations match on TV, a two week old to feed, and a royally crappy VPN connection (for pretty much the first time all year, which is annoying) so I didn't get to see as much of the game as I liked, but there really isn't much to complain about. We dicked West Ham.
Ramsey looked really good today, always there, working, running and a nice goal (admittedly West Ham were asleep defensively). Giroud had one of his better games, and looked again like the striker the peanut gallery are going to struggle to improve upon. I didn't have the attention span for Mesut-watch but he worked really well with Giroud on his goal, and made some runs and even had a shot on goal (whoa!!...). Coq is just in a run of form that makes him like the new Manu Petit, out of nowhere he's become one of the first names on the team sheet and the fulcrum of our midfield.
Theo was a little wasteful and I saw him not track back a few times - my mate is getting increasingly annoyed by Theo and is convinced he'll get sold in the summer as he's been outstripped by Ox and Welbeck, who both work harder. Wenger's meh comments about his new contract seem to suggest this could happen.
The team is being rebuilt into a team that looks tougher and harder to beat: more defending from the front on, more counter attacking. This, honestly, is what won Wenger his two doubles, so I am happy to see this.
Ramsey looked really good today, always there, working, running and a nice goal (admittedly West Ham were asleep defensively). Giroud had one of his better games, and looked again like the striker the peanut gallery are going to struggle to improve upon. I didn't have the attention span for Mesut-watch but he worked really well with Giroud on his goal, and made some runs and even had a shot on goal (whoa!!...). Coq is just in a run of form that makes him like the new Manu Petit, out of nowhere he's become one of the first names on the team sheet and the fulcrum of our midfield.
Theo was a little wasteful and I saw him not track back a few times - my mate is getting increasingly annoyed by Theo and is convinced he'll get sold in the summer as he's been outstripped by Ox and Welbeck, who both work harder. Wenger's meh comments about his new contract seem to suggest this could happen.
The team is being rebuilt into a team that looks tougher and harder to beat: more defending from the front on, more counter attacking. This, honestly, is what won Wenger his two doubles, so I am happy to see this.
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