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Arrests in Major NCAA College Basketball Probe

Discussion in 'College Sports' started by Was (Not Wasdin), Sep 26, 2017.

  1. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    4,402
    This is where I'm at. Clear NCAA violations and the NCAA should be kicking some ass right now (cannot believe Ayton was allowed to play, for example), but the FEDS? Did the Feds get involved when Syracuse got punished for the Fab Melo nonsense? Did the Feds get involved when USC was funneling money to Reggie Bush's family?

    I mean maybe the IRS for unreported income? I dunno.
     
  2. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    15,788
    The main charge is the honest services fraud. The university is being deprived of its right to honest services. There was a bit on this upthread.
     
  3. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    A major oversimplification: The schools also participate in federal loan programs. Fraud that endangers the school's ability to possibly pay back federal funds is essentially defrauding the government. Also, student athletes may receive Pell Grants. A student that receives $100,000--well, technically, that means that student wouldn't be eligible that Pell Grant--having $100,000 in assets is going to jack up one's EFC. You've participated in defrauding the federal government's grant program.
     
  4. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    Yes, you had an elaborate and excellent post at the top of page 4, which I've just re-read. I do understand the concept of honest services (Skilling was the first introduction to it that I had), when personal profit for the perpetrator is involved. I get it with respect to kickbacks for public officials (where the public is the victim) or the various stock schemes you'd see with corporate executives (where the company and its shareholders are the victim). The victims in those cases are getting a poorer service (and financial return) than they'd paid for from their agents, as a result of those agents' self-dealing - their lack of honest services.

    Here, Richardson, Miller et al went to some great lengths (and career risk, in flouting the NCAA so blatantly) in order to provide their employer excellent service. With Ayton as the most obvious example, they successfully steered much greater talent to their university, and thereby success and profits, than would have been at all likely under a coaching staff that scrupulously followed NCAA rules. Every player they bribed to secure their matriculation was going to go to college anyway, and receive a federal scholarship anyway. The only difference is where. And the only people who care where he goes are the students and alums who get to watch him play for their team (or not). So, who's the victim? What tangible harm has been caused, and absent that, whose intangible right to honest services has been infringed upon?

    Then we come to all the other charges just unsealed. Mail fraud? Wire fraud? I'd expect to see that in a kickback scheme or gambling scandal. But those are crimes with tangible harm attached. Where is that harm?

    OK, following along, the school's ability to pay back federal loans is contingent on the students to whom they award those loans being properly eligible for them. Or, if I understand you, something about their (eventual) ability to repay the loan being properly represented. What about their eligibility, or repayment abilities, has shifted as a result of these revelations?

    If any of the recruits bribed to attend these universities were receiving Pell Grants that the bribes would have made them ineligible for, that's coherent to me as a charge. It's in the category of a gangster going down for tax evasion, but I can at least see how the marginal awardee of a Pell Grant is a victim here. Somehow I doubt the students in question are in the Pell bucket, though, especially since their room and board is getting paid for with the university's own scholarship "funds" (no actual funds change hands, of course, because 'scholarships' are just price discrimination between different classes of customer, but that's a digression). It's kinda a left hand / right hand thing, no? The financial aid office steers this discretionary bit or that discretionary bit, plus whatever fund is set aside for athletic scholarships, to make up the "package" and the kid signs it.


    edit: I guess what feels a bit icky here is that nobody criticizes a high school senior for going to a school that offers the best price for a college education, or the best value for that education. But the minute that student crosses the break-even point, and goes from paying dollars to attend to making a personal profit on that decision of where to go, bring down the full weight of the federal law enforcement on them! For the tiny group of people where the school needs them more than they need the school, where they're viewed as "the product" rather than as "the customer", it seems we're saying the practice of boosters paying them to attend is not only against the rules of some silly Victorian-era classist idea of amateurism, but it's also criminal. How dare they take the best financial deal for themselves when marketing their talents, and how dare the coaches use what resources are at their disposal to put the best product on court and on TV.

    I just kind of think of the whole pool of resources (from both the school and the boosters, and the shoe companies) as being part of what a given athletic director can steer towards his goals, and make part of the compensation package for his coaching staff to incentivize them. So this kinda feels like some factory general manager just had a budget meeting, and when he decided the break room was going to get a face lift this year, the SWAT team came in through the windows and hauled him away, because someone thought he should have bumped wages instead.
     
    #304 InstaFace, Feb 26, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  5. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    I get both of those points and I also get he’s not doing it altruistically, he’s doing it so his team is good, it helps his own contract/salary and it keeps him employed because the boosters love him. I just think if one is going to complain that the kids should get paid - not to buy a meal, but for a portion of the revenue they generate for the university; which they should - I find it tough to go as far as ‘he should never coach again’. I think we agree that pretty much every major program does this on some level, I’m just not ready to hang him up by his thumbs. The whole system is fucked.
     
  6. Reverend

    Reverend for king and country Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    The coaches are, through their services, damage the universities by making it impossible for them to keep claiming amateurism which has monetary value?
     
  7. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Good post. You raise some good policy questions. However, the actual law is a lot less intuitive.

    First of all, here's the complaint against Lamont Evans, who was the assistant coach at OSU. https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/999011/download. If you read the charges, a couple of things become clear.

    (1) A bunch of the counts involve the solicitation of bribes/gratuities by an agent of a federally funded organization. If you google the statute (18 USC 666(a)), you will find that courts have read this expansively, in a way that may be far broader than intended by the drafters or covered by good public policy. Be that as it may, under an expansive reading, the defendants are in a really bad place.

    (2) With respect to "honest services" fraud, you're placing the emphasis on "services" while the interpretation of the statute emphasizes "honest." You're correct in pointing out that the university got the better deal by getting the player; but the statute says that the university is still deprived of the right to "honest" services, so it's a crime.

    As a side note, from what I have read (not a ton so someone can correct me if I'm wrong) but the FBI's case is based almost totally on expansive readings of the statutes in question. If the US Gvt doesn't like this, they should deal with it by legislation.

    Also, the people who really should be concerned about this are the workers at the shoe companies. They are the ones who are most at risk for being arrested. Note that at this point no coaches have been arrested to my knowledge, just the assistant coaches.

    (3) As far as the players, I don't believe any of them have been indicted. The latest storm of publicity was the FBI releasing their investigative material to show violations of NCAA rules, not criminal violations.

    Like I said, I haven't been following this very closely so if any of this is incorrect, I'm sure someone will post that shortly.
     
  8. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    Yeah, I'm fine with expansive readings of overbroad statutes if the conduct in question "feels like a crime". To the loyal adherents of "Amateurism" in sport, I'm sure this feels crime-y. But I remain unsold that anything that resembles a crime here was committed, certainly not anything deserving the full weight of the FBI.

    I'll spot you that it fits the letter of the law that you've laid out - you understand it far better than I do. But it feels much closer to the "everyone commits three felonies a day" line of concern from civil libertarians, than anything else. Some of those people don't think that intangible harms can be committed, and I break from them there - e.g. personal injury to reputation and such. But there's a not-unreasonable notion that if these laws are so broad that they can cover a situation like this, where there's no practical argument of harm being done, that it runs counter to public interest and the notions of freedom. Which is ultimately why I care, since I couldn't give two shits about Arizona Basketball.

    As to point #2, about the emphasis being on "honest" rather than "services", I realize there isn't going to be some universally-agreed-upon definition of what constitutes honest conduct. But I do wonder whether an argument of "literally everybody does this, it's accepted practice in the industry, just because it's covert or against the rules of a private organization (NCAA) doesn't mean it's dishonest in a legal sense" would hold water. Dishonesty means you're not being straight with some other party. Here, the closest party I can identify with whom these coaches are not being honest is probably the NCAA. They have a don't-ask-don't-tell dynamic going on with their university superiors, their students, their fans and boosters (frankly, they may just tell the boosters, or at least the ones putting up the gray money). That doesn't quite fit what I think of as dishonest, any more than imprisoning gay members of the military (pre-2011) on the same theory would have done.
     
  9. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    I'm not arguing for or against an expansive reading of 666, but 666 has been used to prosecute scores of people who have defrauded the government or accepted bribes, such as governors, mayors, deputy mayors, city council members, hospital administrators, real estate developers, etc.
    A lot of times, the defendants don't contest the actions being alleged but contest whether there is a legal statute under which they can be charged, particularly when people are more sophisticated than asking for cash for votes. (I can't find a good list of examples, but here's one place to start: https://www.scribd.com/document/255...ceiving-Federal-Funds-18-USC-666-Criminal-Law, most of which are clearly crimes.) 666 was specifically designed to allow the Feds to stop these kind of briberies from taken place, and for better or for worse, the various courts have agreed to read the statute expansively.

    Bad facts make bad law.

    And yes, from what I gather from what people do around here, there are a lot of us who are probably federal criminals under this statute.
     
  10. Reverend

    Reverend for king and country Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    37,364
    How many, if any, of those would be civil cases if one of the parties were not the government?
     
  11. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Again, I was giving a major oversimplification.

    If you're saying "Hey, is the federal government possibly overreaching here?" then my answer would be "WHEN DOES THE GOVERNMENT EVER DO SUCH A THING???"

    These universities are involved with the federal government and federal money and the schools are considered "federally funded". That gives our government (WHICH AGAIN, TOTALLY NEVER OVERREACHES) the change to investigate.

    https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2018/2/25/17048132/fbi-ncaa-investigation-charges-crimes
     
  12. Don Buddin's GS

    Don Buddin's GS Member SoSH Member

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    1,491
  13. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Not sure what you mean. I don't see how any bribery case could be a civil case unless you are thinking of something that I am not.
     
  14. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    15,788
  15. Don Buddin's GS

    Don Buddin's GS Member SoSH Member

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    1,491
  16. soxhop411

    soxhop411 Member SoSH Member

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    33,571
    Arizona and Sean miller will be having a press conference at 2:30 today. ET
     
  17. soxhop411

    soxhop411 Member SoSH Member

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    Sean Miller totally denying the conversation took place. Giving himself zero wiggle room should his comments today be proven false.
     
  18. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Sean Miller will remain the coach at Arizona and is coaching tonight.
     
  19. scott bankheadcase

    scott bankheadcase Member SoSH Member

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    Smart move by Miller and the University right? If he is on a wire, they're dead no matter what. This allows him to keep coaching this season, see if they can get a run in the tournament, and if he eventually gets fired for it, he still gets his 10m.
     
  20. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Good article from Deadspin addressing some of the questions raised about Miller's call. Of course, as the article points out, whether or not the calls were made, the arrest of the assistant coach was probably enough to get Miller fired.

    So yes, I guess Miller has nothing more to lose - including his integrity.
     
  21. Humphrey

    Humphrey Member SoSH Member

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    682
    I guess there's no expectation that the feds will turn over the evidence at any point soon, so, yes, smart move.
     
  22. Detts

    Detts Member SoSH Member

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    4,073
    FAKE NEWS
     
  23. MillarTime

    MillarTime Member SoSH Member

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    Beginning to wonder if ESPN effed up the Ayton/$100k story. I get that Miller has nothing to lose, but why would the university run him out there with such an emphatic denial unless they know it's not true/can't be proven.
     
  24. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Michael McCann appears to be reporting that the player in question wasn't Ayton so maybe that's the issue. Or the other issue is that recruits get paid after they finish the season, not before.

    Here's Miller's full statement. Two quotes of interest:

    (1) "I have never paid a recruit or prospect or their family or representative to come to Arizona. I never have and I never will. I have never arranged or directed payment or improper benefits to a recruit or prospect or family or representative and I never will." (Note that he didn't say that he has never discussed payment, nor does it say that a recruit has never been paid to go to his program.)

    (2) "Let me be very very clear: I have never discussed with Christian Dawkins paying Deandre Ayton to attend the University of Arizona. In fact, I never even met or spoke to Christian Dawkins until after Deandre publicly announced he was coming to our school. Any reporting to the contrary is inaccurate, false and defamatory." (Two things: one, if McCann is right and the player isn't Ayton, that would fit. Or, if there's something about paying Ayton after he finishes the season - which would make sense because once players' seasons finish, they do take benefits, that would also fit.)

    Question: why was Miller talking to Dawkins after Ayton committed? I guess we'll never know.

    One more thing: these statements from various ARI officials that "if there was enough evidence, Miller would be arrested" is a red herring. There are almost no circumstances in which Miller could be arrested under the various statutes assuming he is not an idiot. The FBI acknowledges this and releases the information only because it would be a NCAA violation.

    NCAA isn't going to dig very deeply into any of this, correct? Survival instincts.
     
  25. Average Reds

    Average Reds Dope Staff Member Dope V&N Mod SoSH Member

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    The timing of Miller’s emphatic-sounding denial is very, very odd, as the act of waiting five days allows the image of Miller on tape directing a payoff to be cemented in the public consciousness.

    What this feels like is Miller, his lawyers and the university coming to the realization that there are significant problems with the ESPN story and deciding to push back in areas they know (believe?) can’t be refuted.

    Maybe he’s actually clean, in which case he’ll probably be well compensated by ESPN down the line. But I have my doubts.
     
  26. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    This may deserve it's own thread, but it's an offshoot of all of this: https://sports.yahoo.com/nhl-model-...lution-wake-ncaa-hoops-scandal-150355518.html

    Imagine Deandre Ayton suiting up to play down the stretch in the NBA like Donato is for the Bruins.

     
  27. SoxJox

    SoxJox Member SoSH Member

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    I say so what? Let 'em declare at ANY age (Ok, maybe 18 min).

    There are a plethora of professions out there that eat their young. Adding, there are many who go to college and never find a job or work a single day in that chosen field. So they have a gift at some sport - as a professional it is still a chosen employment field, What are they left to do if they fail there or never get there and fail elsewhere? Move on...like the rest of the world.
     
    #327 SoxJox, Mar 20, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  28. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    The 1 & Dun rule was instituted not for the players but to protect the owners from themselves, whose teams really couldn't figure out how to evaluate the talent properly.

    The draft salary cap should help if the Owners want to get rid of the rule. However, I wonder how much it will hit the NCAA. At some point, losing all of the best players has to hurt, doesn't it?
     
  29. SoxJox

    SoxJox Member SoSH Member

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    Wade, not arguing with you...maybe I'm coming from a position of fatigue on hearing about gifted athletes this, and gifted athletes that (OK, I'm just f**in' envious), but again I say so what that owners can't evaluate their talent properly? That differs how from the torrential flood of hiring managers and shithole HR departments that also don't have a clue but with whom a prospective or hired employee must deal? (And, for any HR folks out there, I'm not casting a wide net - just over those that are dark chasms of nothing, which certainly exist).

    Because an athlete has a special talent or skill, we want to continue treating them different just so that we can see them in a position where we can get pleasure from watching them? OK. I wish that some of those interviewers with whom I did not "click" or make their cut could have somehow seen my unique or excellent skill set and had nurtured me and instituted a hiring process that I could - while earning well above the average Joe - determine if my boss is capable of evaluating me sufficiently well to ensure my continued employment and success.
     
    #329 SoxJox, Mar 20, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  30. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Marvin Bagley III:

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nca...au-club-team/ar-BBKO7lZ?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp



    http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/page/the_loyalty_game.html



    [​IMG]
     
  31. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    32,236
    From same article.

    Josh Jackson:

     
  32. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Not sure if this is related to the probe, but Kansas just fired their AD.
     
  33. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Trials have started and there is some very interesting testimony.

    NEW YORK -- During opening statements Tuesday, attorneys for a former Adidas executive did not deny he conspired to or made payments to the families of high-profile basketball recruits.

    "NCAA rules were broken," attorney Casey Donnelly told the jury. "We are not going to waste your time pretending these families did not get funds."

    But James Gatto's defense team alleges that the former executive was simply asked to match other offers being made from rival programs to prospects, in order to level the playing field for Adidas schools. As a result, Donnelly argued, Gatto was helping the universities determined to be the victims of fraud -- not hurting them, as the government argues.

    But Donnelly said in her opening statements that coaches at Adidas-sponsored schools asked Gatto for help in securing the highly ranked players.

    Specifically, Donnelly alleged the evidence will show that Gatto agreed to pay Brian Bowen's father, Brian Bowen Sr., $100,000 for Bowen to attend Louisville, but only after Nike-sponsored Oregon offered the recruit an "astronomical amount of money" to sign with the Ducks.

    Donnelly said Gatto and defendants Merl Code and Christian Dawkins also schemed to pay Nassir Little's family $150,000 to steer him toward the Miami Hurricanes, but only after Arizona, a Nike school, offered the five-star prospect from Florida the same amount to play for the Wildcats. Little committed to North Carolina shortly after the investigation broke last September.

    And Donnelly said Gatto assisted Kansas by approving a $20,000 payment to Silvio De Sousa's guardian, Fenny Falmagne, to reimburse Under Armour, which had paid him to ensure that he signed with Maryland.

    http://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...orchestrating-payments-recruits-attorneys-say
     
  34. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Explosive testimony today by Brian Bowen Sr. as transcribed by Dan Wetzel. He detailed offers told to him by Christian Dawkins for his son to go to various schools, AAU programs, and even high schools. Bowen Sr. was also paid for his son to attend different HS and AAU programs.

    --Arizona offered him $50,000 via assistant coach Joe Pasternak.
    --Oklahoma State offered $150,000, $8,000 for a car, and undisclosed money for a house via assistant coach Lamont Evans.
    --Texas "would help him with housing via assistant coach Mike Morrell.
    --Creighton "would pay $100,000 plus a lucrative no-show job."
    --Bowen Sr. was paid $25,000 to play with the AAU program Michigan Mustangs for a summer. Money came from Adidas.
    --Bowen Sr. was also paid anywhere from 5-8k to play for a Nike based AAU program outside of Chicago.
    --Bowen Sr. was paid $2,000 a month to attend La Lumiere in Indiana by coach Shane Heirman
    --Bowen Sr. also said that the original offer of $60,000-$80,000 from Adidas to go to Louisville was upped to $100,000 because that is how much money it took to get Billy Preston to go to Kansas.
     
  35. Dernells Casket n Flagon

    Dernells Casket n Flagon Member SoSH Member

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    From what I can tell, he was ranked between 19-21 in his prospect class nationally. Wonder what type of offers the top 5 prospects were looking at.
     
  36. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Dick Vitale: A source involved in the @FBI hoops investigation told me there could be some testimony tomorrow that can create a big nightmare for some coaches & schools / stay tuned !
     
  37. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Interesting to note that this testimony was solicited by the government, as apparently the defense is going to argue that if they defendants were just matching offers, they weren't depriving the universities of "honest services," they were helping the university to obtain services.

    With respect to Vitale's note, most people think the defense is going to reveal as many additional NCAA violations as possible. As noted in the article linked below, "a violation of NCAA rules is not a criminal violation."

    Should be an interesting day of testimony.

    More here: https://sports.yahoo.com/tuesday-impactful-day-yet-college-hoops-corruption-trial-043905489.htmle is going to ask Bowen Sr. about everything that he was offere
     
  38. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Brian Bowen Sr. tells jury that ex-Louisville asst coach Kenny Johnson handed him $1,300 cash in summer 2017 to help Bowen family make rent after they relocated to city to watch son. "He made it pretty clear that this was like a one-time deal for him," Bowen Sr. says
     
  39. StuckOnYouk

    StuckOnYouk Member SoSH Member

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    When does duke finally get nailed?
     
  40. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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  41. DukeSox

    DukeSox Rick Derris SoSH Member

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    if anything, players should be paying for the honor of attending Duke University and playing for the best coach in history and then going near the top of the draft every year
     
  42. Philip Jeff Frye

    Philip Jeff Frye Member SoSH Member

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    That's what they apparently do at Penn!
     
  43. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    "TJ Gassnola just testified in federal court that he made payments to the families of 5 players on behalf of Adidas: Deandre Ayton Brian Bowen Silvio De Sousa Dennis Smith Jr. Billy Preston"

    Note that Gassnola plead guilty to charges already and he was an Adidas rep. I believe Ayton has previously denied getting paid.
     
  44. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    He testified that a Maryland booster paid the guardian of Silvio De Sousa $60,000 and in order to go to Kansas he had to pay back the booster. Dirty as hell.
     
  45. DukeSox

    DukeSox Rick Derris SoSH Member

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    Teams that made national championship runs with players that got paid keep popping up that Duke lost to in Elite 8s, Sweet 16s, etc those years. K probably could have 10+ titles if everyone played clean like Duke. Ah well, it is what it is.
     
  46. Clears Cleaver

    Clears Cleaver Lil' Bill SoSH Member

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    And at least two more if he didn't get outcoached by Jim Calhoun. Its amazing K doesn't have 20+ titles
     
  47. DukeSox

    DukeSox Rick Derris SoSH Member

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    Good point - another “school” that has been suspended in the post season as well
     
  48. Humphrey

    Humphrey Member SoSH Member

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    Referring to the coach that won the most titles, John Wooden, sooner or later folks will figure out who Coach K's Sam Gilbert is.
     
  49. Clears Cleaver

    Clears Cleaver Lil' Bill SoSH Member

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    And then there was Zion....



    He asked Kansas for a job, money and a house for his family. They worked to put it together but he ended up at Duke

    I’m sure because of the ugly co-Ed population...
     
  50. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    So what did Duke give him to go there?
     

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