Arif Hasan Q&A

ArifMHasan

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This brings me to Caedan Wallace. What a polarizing pick. Graded everywhere from a B to an F. You too seem to be critical of the pick. His 10 yd split, broad and vert were marked elite. Traits that you've said are important, especially for OL. Long reach. Powerful punch. Experience practicing on the left side his entire college career, also played LT all throughout High School. Showed up well at the Shrine Bowl playing both guard and LT. Multiple top 30 visits as mentioned above. Coming into a situation where I believe Scott Peters (underrated hire IMO) is going to put him in a position to succeed. Yet, it's being extrapolated that the ROI is going to be poor. How? Because some peoples perception of the data differs? I think it can be easily parsed that the Pats had him as a possible LT while other teams had him solely on the right which made for the discrepancy.
The predominant input in my determination is subjective scouting report data. It tends to produce our strongest indicators for player performance. It's not gospel, certainly -- players who have been regarded as reaches have turned out to be good and worth as much as more than their pick value. But it happens less often, to a substantial degree, than to players who have been picked near the consensus or are regarded as "steals" by the consensus. I looked at Wallace's holistic athletic profile to see what my loose athletic model has to say because I was curious given his mediocre (but not poor) agility numbers. You're correct, my model regards him as an elite position-specific athlete at offensive tackle. These players tend to succeed more than poor athletes. But that I think only moves the needle a little bit. Athleticism matters, but not enough for me to jump a player's round grade by more than one even for astounding athletes at positions where it dispositively matters, much less for a position where it matters less than at EDGE or 3-Tech.

For example, Wallace's athletic score is next to 2021 Consensus Board reach Dan Moore (picked 128th, ranked 194th). He has had, according to Steelers fans and PFF, a very underwhelming career. Steelers fans seem to be more down on him than PFF, even. They both have long frames, good size and experience playing left tackle. Moore had better agility scores and Wallace had better explosion scores and the model is crude enough to not make that distinction (and this could be crucial to the LT vs RT discussion you are having) but the example makes the point -- you can reach for athletes and be wrong. Other high-level offensive tackle athletes who have struggled include Kaleb McGary, Andre Dillard, Jedrick Wills, Lydon Murtha, Nick Zakelj, Marcus McKethan, etc.

As an interesting sidenote, I looked through the 2021 draft class to see which reaches made the Pro Bowl but found that every single player from that draft class picked after the second round who made a Pro Bowl was regarded as a substantial steal by the Consensus Big Board (Landon Dickerson, Creed Humphrey, JOK, Amon-Ra St. Brown, Talanoa Hufanga). That leaves the first round to produce any Pro Bowl reaches and there was only one: Mac Jones.

I've found that substantial reaches do better when it's an elite athlete vs a non-elite athlete, that part is true. The effect is somewhat small but likely to be statistically significant. The evidence that a player with a lot of visits but ranked low on a board is underrated is somewhat compelling to me. But other elements of his profile do not suggest the profile of a player who generally overperforms -- things like large disagreements about his playing ability (he has low variance in rank), a substantial absence from many boards (suggesting an overlooked player, he has been ranked by 50 different analysts) or pre-draft reports of NFL favorability -- e.g. the anonymous scouting tidbits we get from Bob McGinn (McGinn's survey of scouts ranked him outside of the top 12 tackles), Jeremy Fowler, Bruce Feldman, etc. Indeed, the reporting has suggested that scouts have pushed back against the Wallace pick in the instances where reporters have checked in on their feelings about the pick.

Do I think that Wallace is ultimately better than his consensus ranking of 186? Yea, I do. Do I think he is so much better than 186th to be justified as a selection at 68th? Not particularly. His absolute highest ranking was 80th. Among the 25% most positive rankings he received, his average rank was 117th.

These are ultimately an aggregation of other people's opinions. These people have, in aggregation, largely demonstrated their accuracy. You don't have to trust them or believe them, they can and have been wrong.

Also, a B for overall grade for Baker but a round adjusted grade of a D? Can you explain this a little more?
Typo. It's been fixed to a B.

For me the number of data points comes down to quality over quantity. Especially now where the negatives can take over fairly easily due to negative views being the ones people gravitate towards. If you're just adding data to add data you're introducing noise. At what point do the views start to muddle due to bias, misinformation and poor judgement? How do you even know those are factors? Does JimBobs Texas Sized Big Board actually have any value? (not a real board, I hope, but you get what I mean.)
Yes, I've been concerned about this and I think about it every time I add a new board to the pile. Largely, I "recruit" new boards either by looking for organizations whose boards I've pulled from in the past (for example, the Huddle Report added five new boards this year, primarily to house successful analysts whose previous stops have been shuttered) or who have demonstrated some level of success (to bring up THR again, I look at the top performers in predicting the top 100 to see if any new names pop up that I did not include). I do let people email or DM me submissions, but I don't just include them willy-nilly, there is some level of rigor that I need to appreciate happening before they are included. That either means scouting reports or YouTube videos or even tweets demonstrating some level of familiarity with the players being discussed. I added Matt Fitzgerald's board last year after some hesitation because he has scored well in the past. I'm not confident many people have heard of him and his first big board was originally published at a publication not traditionally known for its rigor -- Barstool Sports. But Fitzgerald scored well in THR's Top 100 every year and looking through what he's published, it's been generally items that suggest he's familiar with these players.

I've noticed that as I've added more boards, the Consensus Board gets better at the various tasks I demand of it, whether it's to have a comprehensive database of players so that there isn't a single player called who I don't have data for (I don't want a repeat of missing out on Justin Rohrwasser or Quincy Williams) to get closer to the NFL's valuation of players or to improve in predicting player outcomes. Moving from 40 to 60 and from 60 to 80 has improved the board's overall accuracy.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
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@Eck'sSneakyCheese you would judge from his game tape. Knowing that an LT is often on an island you can see how he does when he has less support. You can see his range. You can measure his independent use of hands. You can measure how good his 3 pass sets are. If the answer to all of those is maybe good enough to start at RT but could be looking to kick him inside to OG then you can be almost certain he is not athletic enough or skilled enough or a combination of both to play LT. That is how I would look at it anyway.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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@Eck'sSneakyCheese it is a much bigger jump athletically going from RT to LT vs kicking inside to RG or LG unless you change your typical LT splits. It would be like saying someone isn't athletic enough to handle first base but maybe we can move him to third (or possibly short-stop). I think the all-star circuit counts for something but I am not comfortable saying that because he practiced there he's a natural fit.
Athleticism isn't his problem though. Has anyone said he's not athletic enough to play LT or is it his technique that's lacking? His agility is poor but his 10 yd and broad show he can get off quick.

The oline coaching the last two years here has been dreadful. Like bottom of the league bad. I feel bad for Cole Strange honestly. The fact he hasn't made progress is not surprising.

The predominant input in my determination is subjective scouting report data. It tends to produce our strongest indicators for player performance. It's not gospel, certainly -- players who have been regarded as reaches have turned out to be good and worth as much as more than their pick value. But it happens less often, to a substantial degree, than to players who have been picked near the consensus or are regarded as "steals" by the consensus. I looked at Wallace's holistic athletic profile to see what my loose athletic model has to say because I was curious given his mediocre (but not poor) agility numbers. You're correct, my model regards him as an elite position-specific athlete at offensive tackle. These players tend to succeed more than poor athletes. But that I think only moves the needle a little bit. Athleticism matters, but not enough for me to jump a player's round grade by more than one even for astounding athletes at positions where it dispositively matters, much less for a position where it matters less than at EDGE or 3-Tech.

For example, Wallace's athletic score is next to 2021 Consensus Board reach Dan Moore (picked 128th, ranked 194th). He has had, according to Steelers fans and PFF, a very underwhelming career. Steelers fans seem to be more down on him than PFF, even. They both have long frames, good size and experience playing left tackle. Moore had better agility scores and Wallace had better explosion scores and the model is crude enough to not make that distinction (and this could be crucial to the LT vs RT discussion you are having) but the example makes the point -- you can reach for athletes and be wrong. Other high-level offensive tackle athletes who have struggled include Kaleb McGary, Andre Dillard, Jedrick Wills, Lydon Murtha, Nick Zakelj, Marcus McKethan, etc.

As an interesting sidenote, I looked through the 2021 draft class to see which reaches made the Pro Bowl but found that every single player from that draft class picked after the second round who made a Pro Bowl was regarded as a substantial steal by the Consensus Big Board (Landon Dickerson, Creed Humphrey, JOK, Amon-Ra St. Brown, Talanoa Hufanga). That leaves the first round to produce any Pro Bowl reaches and there was only one: Mac Jones.

I've found that substantial reaches do better when it's an elite athlete vs a non-elite athlete, that part is true. The effect is somewhat small but likely to be statistically significant. The evidence that a player with a lot of visits but ranked low on a board is underrated is somewhat compelling to me. But other elements of his profile do not suggest the profile of a player who generally overperforms -- things like large disagreements about his playing ability (he has low variance in rank), a substantial absence from many boards (suggesting an overlooked player, he has been ranked by 50 different analysts) or pre-draft reports of NFL favorability -- e.g. the anonymous scouting tidbits we get from Bob McGinn (McGinn's survey of scouts ranked him outside of the top 12 tackles), Jeremy Fowler, Bruce Feldman, etc. Indeed, the reporting has suggested that scouts have pushed back against the Wallace pick in the instances where reporters have checked in on their feelings about the pick.

Do I think that Wallace is ultimately better than his consensus ranking of 186? Yea, I do. Do I think he is so much better than 186th to be justified as a selection at 68th? Not particularly. His absolute highest ranking was 80th. Among the 25% most positive rankings he received, his average rank was 117th.

These are ultimately an aggregation of other people's opinions. These people have, in aggregation, largely demonstrated their accuracy. You don't have to trust them or believe them, they can and have been wrong.
Using Pro Bowls as a measure is something I'm not really on board with but I understand it's probably a general indicator of performance. Although Mac Jones being a positive on any list immediately disqualifies it for me. (Mildly kidding.) Your point stands though. Reaches are considered reaches for a reason and the same with steals. Reaches have an uphill battle.

In response to the bolded, I keep coming back to a tweet from Pelissero mentioning Wallace as a late riser and a possible day two pick. Who was he getting his info from? Just the Pats?

Then theres this: https://247sports.com/college/penn-state/article/nfl-draft-penn-state-offensive-tackle-caedan-wallace-guard-shrine-bowl--226529869/

Mentions a few people who were intrigued by his 2023 performance and his athletic prowess. There was some smoke to this fire.

Yes, I've been concerned about this and I think about it every time I add a new board to the pile. Largely, I "recruit" new boards either by looking for organizations whose boards I've pulled from in the past (for example, the Huddle Report added five new boards this year, primarily to house successful analysts whose previous stops have been shuttered) or who have demonstrated some level of success (to bring up THR again, I look at the top performers in predicting the top 100 to see if any new names pop up that I did not include). I do let people email or DM me submissions, but I don't just include them willy-nilly, there is some level of rigor that I need to appreciate happening before they are included. That either means scouting reports or YouTube videos or even tweets demonstrating some level of familiarity with the players being discussed. I added Matt Fitzgerald's board last year after some hesitation because he has scored well in the past. I'm not confident many people have heard of him and his first big board was originally published at a publication not traditionally known for its rigor -- Barstool Sports. But Fitzgerald scored well in THR's Top 100 every year and looking through what he's published, it's been generally items that suggest he's familiar with these players.

I've noticed that as I've added more boards, the Consensus Board gets better at the various tasks I demand of it, whether it's to have a comprehensive database of players so that there isn't a single player called who I don't have data for (I don't want a repeat of missing out on Justin Rohrwasser or Quincy Williams) to get closer to the NFL's valuation of players or to improve in predicting player outcomes. Moving from 40 to 60 and from 60 to 80 has improved the board's overall accuracy.
This is really great info. Thank you. It's refreshing to know you are doing your due diligence when adding or I love that you said "recruiting" a new board. The fact that you've been able to do so and increase your accuracy is admirable. Seriously, this has been a fantastic discussion. I really appreciate you giving us a glimpse into your process.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
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Jul 20, 2009
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Athleticism isn't his problem though. Has anyone said he's not athletic enough to play LT or is it his technique that's lacking? His agility is poor but his 10 yd and broad show he can get off quick.

The oline coaching the last two years here has been dreadful. Like bottom of the league bad. I feel bad for Cole Strange honestly. The fact he hasn't made progress is not surprising.
Yes, athleticism is a problem to me. Specifically I do not think he has the foot speed to keep up with speed rushers or redirect them enough when they get to the top of their arc. That's why he oversets imo. That's why he cheats by opening up his hips early to keep up with them. And that is why he needs inside help. His athletic testing was good but I don't see an elite athlete here. He doesn't play like one.

OL coaching is interesting because a lot of the major improvements you see don't come from your positional coaches during the season but from programs like Duke Manyweather OL Masterminds. But we do know that some OL coaches can act like these independent agencies and develop guys too like Scar. It's possible Scott Peters is going to be a big help.

Overall with Wallace I feel like there are two columns to him: promising and not-so-promising. Most of our data and observations are in the not-so-promising column even though there are a few things that we can put in the promising column. Overall the balance of the factors right now looks like a bad pick and bad process. I don't know a single analyst or offensive line expert who thought he could play LT. Most thought he was a super-sub, a RT or an OG.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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Yes, athleticism is a problem to me. Specifically I do not think he has the foot speed to keep up with speed rushers or redirect them enough when they get to the top of their arc. That's why he oversets imo. That's why he cheats by opening up his hips early to keep up with them. And that is why he needs inside help. His athletic testing was good but I don't see an elite athlete here. He doesn't play like one.

OL coaching is interesting because a lot of the major improvements you see don't come from your positional coaches during the season but from programs like Duke Manyweather OL Masterminds. But we do know that some OL coaches can act like these independent agencies and develop guys too like Scar. It's possible Scott Peters is going to be a big help.

Overall with Wallace I feel like there are two columns to him: promising and not-so-promising. Most of our data and observations are in the not-so-promising column even though there are a few things that we can put in the promising column. Overall the balance of the factors right now looks like a bad pick and bad process. I don't know a single analyst or offensive line expert who thought he could play LT. Most thought he was a super-sub, a RT or an OG.
You're kind of on an island if you have an issue with his athleticism. I don't know what to tell you there. He gets off the snap lightning fast, sets up well and engages. Against Ohio State he was up against Tui one on one and handled himself fine. I can find tape of all of his negatives and I can find tape of all of his positives. It seems you're leaning to one side and I'm leaning towards the other.

Most of the data and observations can be viewed as promising but again your mileage varies. Its a questionable pick and a process that cannot be determined as of yet because there is no outcome.

In regards to the bolded. Its just not true and not something you can honestly say with any absolute certainty. Most draft profiles say he can play tackle. That's either side. Yes there are many that say a move to guard would lessen his shortcomings but none said he was doomed if he didn't.

I think we just disagree here and that's ok.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
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You're kind of on an island if you have an issue with his athleticism. I don't know what to tell you there. He gets off the snap lightning fast, sets up well and engages. Against Ohio State he was up against Tui one on one and handled himself fine. I can find tape of all of his negatives and I can find tape of all of his positives. It seems you're leaning to one side and I'm leaning towards the other.
I assure I am not on an island here that the 186th consensus rated OL has some athletic concerns playing tackle. Look, two of his bigger fans in the draft community, Brandon Thorn and Lance Z, write about his issues with speed rushers and getting beaten by NFL quickness. If you watched the Ohio State game you are going to see he had a ton of help and he did lose reps vs speed but it didn’t result in a pressure. You can lose a rep and still have the QB get the ball out quickly. He consistently had inside running back help. When Lance Z and I are pointing to his trouble with speed rushers and opening up early that isn’t just technique. It’s athletic. It’s foot quickness. These aren’t two even sides. The side that thinks Wallace, for lack of better words, isn’t very good has a lot more ammo here. And remember had I released a board I would have been relatively high on him (somewhere in the 4th round).


Most of the data and observations can be viewed as promising but again your mileage varies. It’s a questionable pick and a process that cannot be determined as of yet because there is no outcome.
He brings a lot of positives to the table like many drafted prospects. No doubt. But the bar for starting OT is high. I think he is going to be a very good super sub who might start eventually at guard or RT. In a vacuum compared to a lot of other college prospects that’s pretty good! Is that what you want at pick 68 (his average outcome if he sticks on a roster)? I want to chase after guys I think have a higher chance of starting at pick 68 even though the air starts getting thin. It is even harder finding LTs at pick 68. Most (or a plurality at least) of the average to above average LTs are first rounders and projected first rounders at that.

In regards to the bolded. Its just not true and not something you can honestly say with any absolute certainty. Most draft profiles say he can play tackle. That's either side. Yes there are many that say a move to guard would lessen his shortcomings but none said he was doomed if he didn't.

I think we just disagree here and that's ok.
When draft reports say a guy can play guard or tackle they don’t always specify which side. That’s true. But for a lot of the community there is a bunch of implied or baked inFor many of us we thought Wallace was a swing tackle/backup type. In general though the understanding is that left tackle is the most demanding position to play and if you aren’t a top notch prospect you don’t really profile as a starter there. The best guys are your LT prospects or the folks who are more comfortable on the right side but are still elite (like Wirfs coming out). Then you have RT prospects, then swing tackles, etc. I might think Wallace can be a swing tackle and therefore he can backup both spots or a possible starting RT and for brevity just say “tackle”.

Brugler was also higher than consensus on him and specifically mentions his issues with lateral movement and problems with speed rushers. Brugler also specifically calls him out as RT only. Generally if a guy has limitations like Wallace does he more or less automatically is an RT prospect if you want him to start. I guess a better way to say it is that it is baked into what an analyst means when they say an OT prospect.

I don’t know for sure that most of these folks who didn’t see Wallace as a day 2 prospect would tell you he is not a starting left tackle prospect but I would bet my mortgage that they would tell you that if you asked them for more detail.
I will see what Thorn and Lance Z say when I try and ask them if they like Wallace’s chances at LT or if they meant they thought he was a true starting LT prospect vs RT and swing tackle. Maybe I will get lucky and they respond.

It would be interesting to ask analysts and people who have written reports if they meant they thought he was a starting LT prospect or not. If you have any other reports that mention him let me know. I’ll try and help figure it out.
 

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Eck'sSneakyCheese

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https://www.patriots.com/news/film-review-breaking-down-caedan-wallace-s-film-and-possible-o-line-combinations-for-the-patriots

You really can’t argue what this article says. Yes it has your points but they aren’t as magnified as you make them.

or this, if you want Thorns opinion. Taken from the above article.

“If you don't want to take the Patriots top decision-maker's word for it, I consulted with O-Line guru Brandon Thorn on Wallace transitioning to left tackle. Brandon writes for Bleacher Report and Trench Warfare. He is my go-to for offensive line play:
"Wallace could feasibly play on the left given that athletic ability and movement skills in pass pro are some of his top strengths. Plus, he passes most size thresholds for the position. Given that he has been exclusively a right tackle in college clouds the projection a bit, but on the current depth chart I don't think there's much of a question that he at least has the most upside at left tackle," Thorn said, while acknowledging the Patriots current options are limited.”
 

SMU_Sox

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Kind of damning with faint praise, no? Interesting Thorn thinks so. He’s in the minority and there is plenty to debate or argue over subjective opinions but at this point we’ve probably beaten it to death. Guess we will just wait and see. I would view him as a success if he starts somewhere on the line. He is probably break even at OL6 super sub.