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Anthony Davis: No Loyalty

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by HomeRunBaker, Sep 28, 2018.

  1. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    Yup, these are the kinds of situations where legalistic little gotchas don't get far. Commish gets what Commish wants.
     
  2. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    Well if they've decided to play him, don't do it halfway, because that's when guys get injured.
     
  3. Myt1

    Myt1 the FRESH maker Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    No. The rules are the same but the facts are different.

    I’ll give you a hypothetical to try to illustrate this for you: if the highest performing employee of your company was fired the day after reporting his boss for sexual harassment, he’d have a better claim for wrongful, retaliatory termination than your lowest performing co-worker who was fired after stealing a laptop.

    Who says that Chandler Parsons doesn’t? It would turn in the facts if the situation, which differ.

    Depends on the facts. A claim for inadequate representation depends on the facts.

    Assuming there’s a discovery process in the arbitration form in the CBA, literally the same way that you would seek to prove bad faith for any action. Communications about the reasons for the action.

    I don’t know. Maybe.
     
  4. Myt1

    Myt1 the FRESH maker Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    We typically refer to those as “law.”

    You guys just kinda wing it here, huh? That’s cool. I’ll show myself out.
     
  5. Red Averages

    Red Averages owes you $50 SoSH Member

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  6. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    Sitting him to prevent injury is a plausible reason for holding him out. The burden is on AD to prove that it wasn't the real reason.
    I suggest that if AD calls you and asks you to represent him in the matter, that you don't take it on contingency.

    Ad for the league not liking the optics of teams sitting their superstars, that's a business and marketing matter, not a legal determination.
     
  7. Myt1

    Myt1 the FRESH maker Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    This assumes that sitting a healthy player who wants to play to prevent injury and maximize trade value can’t be bad faith in and of itself.

    Yeah. I mean, after the hard-hitting analysis to the contrary in this thread, I’d be terrified of rolling the dice in the oh-so-strenuous and formalistic forum of a labor arbitration.
     
  8. maufman

    maufman Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

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    Dude, there’s a lot of people here who know stuff about labor law, collective bargaining, and so on. It’s pretty clear you’re not one of them.
     
  9. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    I'm not sure anyone is claiming the NBA commissioner can act outside the law. And even the law does give sports leagues fairly broad power to set up bylaws that outline disciplinary measures for teams, owners, league employees, and players (as we saw during Deflategate). Player discipline is, of course, covered by the CBA. Of course, you would know this in far more detail than most here.

    Maybe Silver cannot "force" the Pelicans to play Davis (that's an argument I cannot make either way). But he can point out the numerous ways how sitting Davis for non-disciplinary reasons could end badly for all parties involved, both from a business standpoint and from the legal side.
     
  10. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    Oh, I don't pretend to be an expert. But what part of my analysis is incorrect? Just curious.
     
  11. Myt1

    Myt1 the FRESH maker Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I was referring to the “legalistic little gotchas.” ;-)

    Seriously, I’ll quit pissing in the punch bowl.
     
  12. maufman

    maufman Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

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    It’s a Law of the Shop issue, so I’m not an expert either. But good-faith behavior is always part of the Law of the Shop, and I’m pretty sure using a player contract solely to deny that player’s services to other clubs would be considered bad faith. I’d expect the Pelicans to lose in arbitration if they tried to sit AD when he is healthy and wants to play. If there’s a good-faith dispute about AD’s medical status, that’s a different story.
     
  13. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    Myt1, please don't stop. Probably a moot point now, with the NOP seemingly deciding to play him. But your opinion on this--even as a hypothetical--would be appreciated, were you able to see past the church farts.

    Edit: thx to mauf also
     
  14. Myt1

    Myt1 the FRESH maker Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    It’s basically what Mauf says. Here are a couple of additional generally applicable premises:

    Labor arbitrators can do almost anything they want. Honestly, the deference they are afforded is almost unfathomable.

    A lot of labor arbitrations come down to some level of splitting the baby or, “Dude. So uncool.”

    Absent precedent to the contrary, there’s a pretty easy, straight-faced “This is some fucked up shit,” argument to be made for sitting a top 10 player who is perfectly healthy, outside of the generally applicable disciplinary mechanisms. You don’t really need a ton more.

    Is it possible that a labor arbitrator would say, “Sitting a healthy player to maintain his trade value is perfectly acceptable”? Sure. I’d say that the likelihood of that is directly related to the scope of the action: day of trade deadline, Yeah, obviously. Week of? Uh, OK I guess. Months before the offseason? Meh.

    I’m a guest in the parlor here, and was honestly hoping that someone might have more real, specific info than I did. That’s why I waded in before.
     
  15. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    Thanks to both of you. That helps. Law of the shop, arbitrator deference. SSDD, but clearly we needed the reminder.

    Fwiw, the NBA is better at keeping this shit in house than MLB and the NFL, which very well might be why the NOP is already walking back.
     
  16. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    The "Law of the Shop" is an unwritten set of common practices that both labor and management assume will be followed--yes?. It appears that the law of the NBA shop is that coaches play who they want to play. Players who want to play have been held out all the time. Has a grievance objecting to this practice ever been filed before?
     
  17. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Kinda? Darius Miles.

    Not really the same thing though.
     
  18. EvilEmpire

    EvilEmpire Dope Staff Member Dope

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    I know this is a probably a dumb question, but when a precedent is set in labor arbitration, does it carry over in future arbitrations? I mean, I'm sure it probably does for a specific arbitrator, but do arbitrators change, and are they bound by what previous arbitrators have done?

    I guess I'm wondering how much Silver really wants these issues tested in arbitration at all.
     
  19. Myt1

    Myt1 the FRESH maker Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    When your argument continuously requires you to revert to a generality that is so far removed from the specific facts of the situation being discussed, it’s probably not a particularly good argument.

    It’s even worse when we’re talking about a situation in which the front office decides to sit someone and your formulation is the coach making the call.

    No one is going to want to play with you. We’re not trying to win (and, no shit, we’re super good at playing these sorts of games).

    I’ll give you a hypo: Notwithstanding the fact that a coach generally can play who he wants, if a coach sits a player at the request of management to prevent him from hitting a contractual bonus, that’s probably done in bad faith and could be the type of thing would be open to challenge. If the coach sits him for fucking the coach’s wife, we probably have an issue, too.
     
    #1369 Myt1, Feb 7, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
  20. Myt1

    Myt1 the FRESH maker Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    That’s when you get law of the shop precedent on point. Harder to ignore and your last sentence is likely on point.
     
  21. maufman

    maufman Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

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    Building on this, arbitrators depend on repeat business. Labor and management both need to agree on the selection of an arbitrator, so labor arbitrators are strongly incented not to hand down rulings that really piss off one side or the other. This is a feature, not a bug; the purpose of the grievance and arbitration process is to foster harmonious labor relations, not to achieve perfect justice in each individual case.

    Applying this principle to a hypothetical AD-Pelicans dispute, I think players would care a lot about owners benching players for reasons unrelated to health or on-court performance, whereas I doubt the owners as a group feel strongly about having that right; indeed, they might rather not have that right if it means superstars like AD get put on the shelf to serve an individual club’s parochial interests.
     
  22. maufman

    maufman Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

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    I believe there have been grievances in baseball where a player was denied a roster spot despite clearly being one of the best 25 guys. There was a bit of chatter about this here several years ago, toward the end of Jason Varitek’s career. Tek had unexpectedly accepted arbitration instead of becoming a free agent and therefore came back on a one-year, non-guaranteed contract that was very expensive relative to his production at that point. The consensus here was that the Sox couldn’t cut Tek at the end of Spring Training and avoid paying his inflated salary because you couldn’t argue with a straight face that he wasn’t one of the team’s two best catchers. (Not that the Sox ever seriously considered doing that — we discuss some crazy shit here.) Don’t ask me why that principle doesn’t stop clubs from fucking with young guys like Kris Bryant and Evan Longoria.
     
  23. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    It's simple: anyone who spends more than a few hours reading up on the byzantine NBA CBA and deal structure begins to think of themselves as a labor lawyer.

    edit: I won a $100 buy-in poker tournament in atlantic city once, and began to think of myself as ready for mid-stakes tables in Vegas. That worked out well.
     
    #1373 InstaFace, Feb 7, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
  24. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    Sure, it's possible that there is some sort of smoking gun, and pouring through documents, emails and voicemails might turn something up to establish bad faith on the part of management. But suppose there isn't? AD has been injured often and in fact he's just coming off an injury now. Absent tangible evidence of bad faith, I don't think he wins an arbitration or a lawsuit if the team sits him because it fears another injury.
     
  25. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    I heard a talking head today say "Anthony Davis leads the league in X-Rays." I thought it was funny.

    I don't really have an opinion on this one way or the other, except to say that I would find it rich that the guy who hasn't been playing in order to maintain value for a trade he demanded, in violation of the NBA CBA, would now be able to sue the team that didn't trade him, because they are trying to maintain value for a future trade, something one would presume he still wants.

    I'd be curious how an arbitrator would wade through that set of facts. Myt, isn't there a Latin phrase for "You made your bed, now you lie in it?"
     
  26. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I suspect Ainge or at least janos is seething about tonight's loss but if anyone won today, it was Danny. Davis may still wind up elsewhere but now Ainge gets to play in the Brow market.

    That alone should soothe him and any Cs fans who are frustrated with the current team's up and down season. The reality is that the longer term dream is still alive and it potentially positions the Cs to compete when the competitive balance of the league may shift favorably with other player movement in the offseason.

    To summarize, no loss this season is bigger than Davis remaining with New Orleans today. The Cs can still compete this year but they have a good shot to become even more formidable in just under five months.
     
  27. luckiestman

    luckiestman Son of the Harpy SoSH Member

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  28. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I think Al will stay as long as the Celtics want him back and don't lowball him. He might opt out of his current deal and sign a longer one at less money, since that may be his last big NBA contract.
    I think OKC chose wrong. Imagine Durant and Harden instead of Durant and Westbrook.
    Tatum's likely to be very good but unlikely to ever be as good as AD, and the Kyrie/AD pair gives the Celtics 2 top players at their prime.
    This is where AD and Parsons differ, though. There's a credible argument about why a coach would want to not play Parsons; there isn't one for Davis (outside of health and maintenance reasons).
    Did Davis refuse to play until the deadline or did he and NO decide together to do that?
     
  29. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Not a lot of info because situation if it happened wouldn't have precedent.

    One thing that is absolutely true is the poster that says NBA doesn't want this to be a grievance issue.

    Looking into it more, maybe the closest thing I found was last year when Bulls sat Robin Lopez and Justin Holiday for a few weeks. https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/b...ters-will-now-play-robin-lopez-justin-holiday. Bulls claimed they were doing it to "evaluate young players." That ended when Bulls had "conversation" with league office.

    I'm glad NOP decided to play AD because that's better for the league, although I wonder if they will reduce his minutes. (Or, they could increase his minutes to get every ounce of value out of him; that would be ironic). Still, it seems like NOP should be able to take into account when making a PT decision the value of their asset.
     
  30. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    I'm not buying that argument. "Health and maintenance" as you call it, is a much more powerful reason than the reasons for sitting Parsons (we need to evaluate young players blah blah blah). And sitting AD causes him zero economic harm. In Parsons case, it effectively precludes him from getting another decent NBA contract.

    The league intervenes because when good players are held out it looks like tanking, and the league has been unable to figure out how to eliminate this practice. They tinker with the lottery odds, and all the rest, but so long as there are incentives to lose, some teams will. Teams will continue to hold players out until the league office calls, then the player in question is reinserted in the rotation and the team sits someone else.

    Let me add that the adverse effect on TV ratings when stars are held out is also a serious concern.
     
    #1380 Big John, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  31. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Problem with your Parsons argument is that he left the team voluntarily. It would have been interesting to see what happened if he had filed a grievance after he was medically cleared to play but before he agreed to leave the team.
     
  32. PedroKsBambino

    PedroKsBambino Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Agree both with the notion NBA pushes on these teams, and also that people are likely overstating the certainty Davis would win given the valid interest NOP has here. Comparisons to sitting guys to avoid them getting a bonus are inapt; this is a different scenario. None of my comments are to say NOLA should do it, only that it's tricky on these facts becasue the best interest of the team truly is sitting him and the player is not clearly directly harmed by that.
     
  33. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    C'mon now, it was a little more complicated than that. He didn't want to go to the D-league, so they sent him home rather than have him with the team.

    http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25709108/chandler-parsons-disappointed-leave-grizzlies-ready-play
     
  34. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    You may be correct in terms of real life but fortunately or unfortunately, the legal process is not real life.

    From everything I understand - e.g., http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25699385/chandler-parsons-memphis-grizzlies-agree-part-ways - the official position of both sides is that both team and player agreed that Parsons would rehab on his own in LA.

    The reason that this - and not the back story to which you allude - is important because Parsons would not win a grievance when MEM can simply say he agreed to the plan of action.

    Now it would have been super interesting if after MEM made their proposal (3 games in G-League; rehab in MEM; or rehab in LA with his own team) Parsons had immediately filed a grievance. Then the back story you reference would have had more probative value.

    That is also not to say that tomorrow, he could decide he wants to play, head to MEM to work out for the front office, and demand to play. At that point, he might have a case - depending on whether MEM was serious or just bluffing about letting him play in the future; whether his knee truly was sound; whether the hearing officer believed Parsons' explanation about not wanting to play with the Hustle; and many other factual matters.
     
  35. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    Parsons' agent is Mike Dunleavy's son, James. Maybe they should have grieved. But Dunleavy isn't the first player to be sent home. I've never head of any grievance being filed because of it, and I don't think one will ever be, so long as the paychecks keep coming.

    I note in passing that the NBA CBA's grievance language includes the following: "Nothing contained in this Article XXXI [the grievance provisions] shall be deemed to limit or impair the right of the NBA or any Team to impose discipline upon a player(s) or to take any other action not inconsistent with the provisions of a Player Contract or this Agreement."
     
  36. Myt1

    Myt1 the FRESH maker Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    You’re conflating two different things: whether he could have a prima facie case for bad faith and whether he could affirmatively prove it. And you’re continuing to fight the hypo by acting as if “fears another injury” in a perfectly healthy player cannot constitute bad faith.

    We get it. You don’t like this viscerally, so you’re going to keep trying to reverse-engineer some reasoning to support it. That’s fine, I guess.

    Pedicare probably works. ;-)

    He got fined for that in accordance with the CBA. The demand probably wouldn’t help him if he grieved a short-lived quasi-suspension, but I don’t think it would play very much in something longer term. I think that there’s a reasonable argument to be made that the fine would be evidence that the continued lack of playing would be continued, extra-CBA discipline, but maybe that’s more a more creative argument than a serious one. I’d probably try it to see if it got traction and drop it at resistance from the arbitrator or judge.
     
  37. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    Yes, that's right. I don't believe that in these particular circumstances--including AD's value to the franchise, his trade request and his injury history--, fear of further injury alone could constitute "bad faith" without some tangible evidence that the benching was vindictive. If some player and his agent want to embark on a fishing expedition to find such evidence (at their expense, as provided in the CBA's grievance provisions) they are of course free to do so.
     
  38. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    Janos is right, guys. The replacement for "who backs up Kyrie when we S&T Rozier" is staring us in the face. Just stared us down with a scowl, in fact.
     
  39. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Any one wondering about Davis skills need look no further than the box score tonight. Halfway through three, the guy has 32 points on 11-12 shooting, eight boards and three blocks.

    Ainge may have to call his doctor in a few hours...
     
  40. The Social Chair

    The Social Chair Member SoSH Member

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    He's coming off like a dope.

     
  41. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Is there a single person on this planet who is wondering about Davis’ skills?

    :)
     
  42. Tony C

    Tony C Dope Dope

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    Not in the abstract, no...but have certainly read plenty of "he's not worth JT, +, +" posts just as have read Lakers fans saying "he's not worth Lonzo and Ingram +, +" (actually ESPN -- from Pelton, if memory serves? - had a similar take in re analyzing potential deals from the Lakers' side). Those take miss that otherworldly stars are worth more than the sum of their parts. Maybe there's a legit fear in re Davis' injuries, but otherwise -- he's worth whatever a team has to give.
     
  43. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Agreed. Furthermore, those trying to propose trades where the Lakers, Celtics or anyone else surrenders less than their best possible package (e.g. any package without Tatum in it for Boston) are wishcasting.

    Davis is what he is - a transformational player. He is currently fifth in win-shares, second in win-shares per 48 minutes, fourth in BPM (eighth in offensive BPM) and fourth in VORP. The idea that teams are going to be able to acquire him for "cheap", even if he won't commit to staying with his new team, is not realistic.

    The Pelicans should demand a steep price and given that players aren't really fungible the valuation of each trade partner's package may vary widely in the eyes of the beholder. In short, Davis will almost certainly fetch a return that "hurts" the acquiring team.
     
  44. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    The issue is whether or not Davis stays long term, not his talent.
     
  45. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    Paul George and Kawhi Leonard were were traded for far less than many thought. Each had one year left on their deal. PG, while not quite in the tier of AD, had very similar "I want to go to LA" baggage. Kawhi, certainly in AD tier, had the weird injury thing and also similar "I want to go to LA" baggage.

    So I think the stating point is what those teams got for trading each of them, and then throw an additional asset on top for the 1) higher tier AD is in compared to PG, and 2) the not having a mysterious injury that sidelined him for the entire year compared to Kawhi.

    If PG hadnt signaled he only wanted to go to LA, there is no way Oladipo + Sabonis gets it done. Similarly if Kawhi was healthy and not so fun weird, no chance DeRozan + Poetl gets it done
     
  46. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    One other thing you have to factor in is the internal "hurdle" that teams dealing these stars has to beat. Buford has, understandably, been on rock solid ground in San Antonio and Pritchard/Buchanan seemed to have support even when dealing George. Demps, on the other hand, appears to be in a worse spot. Its hard to say what that means but he may be heavily incentivized to swing for the fences with each trade partner and stand his ground given that maximizing a return for Davis may be the only way to keep his job.

    To be clear, I know no more than anyone here and I would love to see the Celtics acquire Davis on the cheap, especially given his flight risk. But I strongly suspect its going to take Tatum as part of a larger, hefty package to get it done for the C's. And that is even if we collectively think that beating the other offers is doable without including Jayson.
     
  47. NomarsFool

    NomarsFool Member SoSH Member

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    Very hard to read Demps' mind. Personally, I think that whatever he ends up getting in return, NOL fans will think it wasn't enough. On the flip side, if he holds out to long and is unable to move Davis and he walks giving NOL nothing, Demps is fired for sure. So, he's definitely between a rock and a hard place. He feels pressure to have a massive haul, but if he holds out and gets nothing, he's totally screwed.
     
  48. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    To further clarify, I think if Demps holds out for a Cs package that is centered around Tatum, Danny is going to bite. The subtext of all the reporting these last few weeks suggests that the teams have had a rough framing of what a potential deal may look like.

    Also, given what we know about Ainge, its hard to see him backing away from Anthony Davis because giving up Tatum is too much to bear, even with the flight risk. Danny is secure enough to take that sort of gamble because in some ways, he lucked into Tatum and Davis is exactly the sort of NBA talent for whom it is worth going "all in".
     
  49. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    I think the likely scenario is it is Tatum and some salary filler and one of the picks which is not the MEM pick and maybe a future BOS first. I think Tatum is thought of that highly that him being the only real sure asset is a good enough haul for a guy who should be viewed as a rental.

    And I would prefer that deal over another likely scenario where it is Brown, Smart and a bunch of picks.
     
  50. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Demps knows that how he handles the AD trade this summer will determine his future as a GM in this league.....and not necessarily with New Orleans. He has to be on his A-game and act in the best interest of the Pelicans. In other words......he has to perform his job to the best of his ability regardless of whether he knows this could be his final act in NO. I expect him to get a haul for Davis......one that may shock some people.
     

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