Am I one of those Parents?

bakahump

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IE am I making LL too big a deal?
 
Preface...
 
Last year my 7yo moved up from a strictly "Coach Pitch league" the year previous and was the youngest in his "Player Pitch" league that had an age limit of 7-11 (very few 10 or 11yos...as most of them where in "Majors").  I wont lie...he had some growing pains and as a 7yo in a league with 8 and 9 yos I expected it and was proud of his efforts and performance ( I would be regardless of how he did but you get the idea).  Most importantly HE was happy and seemingly challenged without getting dejected. At the end of the season he was good enough to start his teams playoff games (over some older kids) and the team was good enough to win their championship.  (Left Handed 2nd Basemen Booyah!)
 
In that league the Players did "80%" of the pitching.  If a Pitcher threw 4 balls during an at bat the Batting teams coaches came in and Pitched to their own player to finish that at bat (K, Out or Hit).  If a Pitcher K'd a batter the batter sat down.   Basically 3 Strikes and your out......4 Balls and you get the coach....who could still strike you out....even if inadvertently.
 
 
This year we combined our LL system with a neighboring town that we have very close ties with (we share the same High school,  Our towns are referred to as A,B by most locals,  basically we are one entity with 2 names etc etc).
 
During this combining the powers that be decided to reorganize the Levels to the below:
 
 
(AA) Player Pitch Baseball: Ages 7-8
This level is intended to bridge the transition from coaches pitching to players pitching to each other. Players at this level will pitch to other players in every odd inning (1,3,5) and coaches will pitch in the even innings (2,4,6) or to give a batter the opportunity to hit. Coaches will be on the field with the players providing instruction during the game. There is increased competition at this level; standings will be kept and there will be a two game playoff at the end of the season to determine a Player Pitch champion.
Players need attend Tryouts/Assessments.
 
(AAA) Minors Baseball: Ages 9-10
**NEW IN 2014** This level is intended for players whose skills have advanced beyond what is offered at the Player Pitch Division, but are not ready to compete in the Major Division. At this level, players do all of the pitching and the coaches remain in the dugout during the game. Players in the Minor Division age 9 and above are eligible to be selected for all-star teams. There is increased competition at this level; standings are kept and there will be a playoff at the end of the season to determine a Minors Division Champion.
 
Majors Baseball:  Ages 10-12
Intended for the most advanced players. Once a player has been placed on a major team, they may not return to a lower division. Players in the Major Division are eligible for all-star teams. There is increased competition at this level; standings will be kept and there will be a playoff at the end of the season to determine the Major Division Champion.
 
 
 
As I said earlier....my son last year was in his "age 7 Little League season" ....which obviously would mean that this year would be "Age 8".
As an 8 yo he is only eligible for "AA Player Pitch".  As you can see "AA PP" is actually a hybrid of coach pitch and Player Pitch.  The problem as I see it is that My son will need to "regress" (for lack of a better term) to facing his peers every other inning and Coaches every other inning.  I have found nothing "official" but I suspect in this league that if a Pitcher has control problems in one of the "kid Innings" then a coach will come in for that batter (much like they did last year in the Minors).
 
So last year where the coach may have pitched 20% of the time (only for those batters that faced "wild pitchers") this year they will pitch 50% of the time PLUS the Batters that are facing "wild Pitchers".
 
I sent an email to the LL board asking why they did not "Overlap Ages" between Coach Pitch and Minors like they did between Minors and Majors.
 
It seemed to me that doing so, while using the "tryout" methodology would solve the issue my son is facing. He would either make the "Minors" at tryouts or have to stay down in "Player Pitch".
 
I guess I am wondering if I should be concerned about this at his age and possibly press the issue (short of being an ass), or if I should just shut up and let him play in a league he basically played in 2 years previous.
 
I know some of the personalities on the LL Board...and while I applaud them for putting alot of time and effort into the league,  there are also individuals who are Sanctimonious in the fact they are the masters of this little fief of baseball.  I am POSITIVE that they will take affront to me even suggesting that they may not have done this perfectly. As such I suspect that they may dig their heels in regardless of logic.
 
Am I wrong? I would love some coaches/ League official input.
 

RIFan

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I'm not seeing the downside of the hybrid approach. Kids facing kids at that age is very tedious and actually drives a lot of kids out of baseball. They don't get a lot of pitches to hit and the games drag on. The benefit of their approach is there is opportunity to develop pitching, but also develop batting skills by giving kids see some pitches they can hit (assuming the coaches are able to groove some pitches).

I applaud you for considering that you "might be one of those parents". That puts you far ahead of many. I would sit back and enjoy the season. Age 8 is wayyyyy too early to be concerned about anything. Hell, when I was a kid you started t-ball at 8. I think there is more than a good chance he'll enjoy the season more with the approach they are taking and he certainly won't have his development suffer.
 

Plympton91

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Amazing; when I played we had separate leagues for 8, 9, 10, and then 11-12 played together.  Is your town just not big enough to stock enough teams for the younger kids, has youth baseball declined everywhere to such a point where participation isn't high enough, or is there a development theory that they benefit from playing with older kids at younger ages?
 
The coaches pitched all the time at 8 years old, and no coach pitch was allowed at all for the 9 year old league.  By the 10 year old league, if you couldn't consistently field the ball you basically never played a full game.
 
To answer your question, it doesn't sound to me like you're one of those parents.
 
I'm having my first experience as a coach this year though, so I'll let you know after I have a bigger sample.
 

Heinie Wagner

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"I would sit back and enjoy the season. Age 8 is wayyyyy too early to be concerned about anything......  I would sit back and enjoy the season."
 
I'm on son #2 in his 9 yo LL season and son #3 starting T-ball.  The above is the best possible advice anyone can give you.  At this age, the most important thing is that he has fun so he wants to throw a ball or hit a ball as much as possible.  His placement is not going to hinder his development as a baseball player (or as a kid).
 
I agree that someone will be insulted by your question and they won't make an exception.  If they make an exception for you then it becomes a lot more work for them to have to decide if they do or don't make any other exceptions.  No way to make everyone happy, so draft a policy and stick with it.  It's easier that way.  I'm not saying it's right, just that in my experience, that's how it works.
 
I also applaud you for considering that you might be one of those parents, few are that self-aware.
 

twothousandone

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He's 8 and you are worried he isn't hitting against his peers often enough?
 
I had trouble keeping it all straight, but I think I agree with RIFan -- young kid pitch often means facing pitchers who can't throw strikes. Two very bad habits from that are 1) happy feet, because half the pitches are likely HPB, 2) reach for something vaguely hittable, because chicks dig hitters. 
 
My 9-year old played kid pitch for the first time in the fall. Five balls = BB. Pitcher, throws it, it bounces to the backstop. catcher picks it up, throws over the pitchers head. 2nd baseman picks it up. In the first game, this happened on every pitch of a five-pitch walk in the first inning. I believe I would have paid $100 to change the rules, right there, and permit coaches to pitch. And that was September, when it was warm. 
 
I don't know where you live, but I believe 45 degrees with a stiff breeze while watching my kids stand at home plate and take a four-pitch walk will get me to heaven quicker than otherwise. It HAS to matter more than three Hail Mary's and Stations of the Cross. 
 

riboflav

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Fun is key, here. If your kid is still having fun playing the game at 13 then, based on studies, he will stick with it and baseball will become a lifetime hobby for him. I think it's something like 80% of all kids who start playing youth sports drop out by 13.
 
I had a parent of a 9-year old in AAU one time come up to me to complain about her previous coach, saying "Last year, the coach stunk (which he did, btw). We lost en entire year of development." I rolled my eyes.
 

bakahump

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I would be lying if I didnt admit some pride that "my boy is playing with big kids."
 
But thats not all of this.
 
Part is that due to his late Birthday (Late sept) he is a 3rd grader and will be playing with 2nd graders (IE not his friends).  You all can relate to the fact that 3/4 of the fun as a kid was not even playing ....it was being with your friends and playing.  I DO worry  more that  him not getting to hang out with his friends will turn him off more then getting plunked or BBs.
 
Also I can relate to the advice your giving. Some of the games last year where long and tedious with Players pitching.  However... we as parents...and he as a player dealt with it and he enjoyed it.

I appreciate the advice I really do.  Not saying I like it.....like my first sentence says...Its cool knowing he could play with the "big kids" and I know he wants to "play with his friends"...But I can admit that his development (which in the end MIGHT mean he makes his HS team someday) wont be stunted. He may even actually like being a "big fish in the small pond" as opposed to working his tail off to be competent.
 

Heinie Wagner

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"I believe I would have paid $100 to change the rules, right there"
 
The best thing our LL ever did was buy pitching machines for the 8-9 level.  The dumbest thing they did was decide midway through the season to only use them for the first 4 innings.
 
4 innings with every pitch a strike, kids swing, catchers catch, fielders are engaged, it was actually watchable baseball.  Then bring in an 8-9 year old to pitch and except for 1-2 kids in the entire league, it got brutal.  Worst of all, the 12 year old umps call anything near the plate that doesn't bounce a strike so the kids are encouraged to swing at everything.
 

twothousandone

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Don't blame the umps. I may have paid them off to be able to get the hell out of there. 
 

Heinie Wagner

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Oops, I quoted that because I meant to say I know exactly what you mean.  Kid pitch at that age is brutal. Everyone says if they're going to pitch, they have to do that at such a young age.  I completely disagree, at that age, pitchers are made in the back yard, not on a LL mound throwing ball after ball no where near a strike.
 

Heinie Wagner

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twothousandone said:
Don't blame the umps. I may have paid them off to be able to get the hell out of there. 
 
LOL   I know what you mean at some point you just want it to be over. It's just brutal to hear coaches tell kids to swing at everything when you know that it's an awfully bad habit that will be hard to break and totally ruin them in a couple years if they don't break it.
 

riboflav

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Heinie Wagner said:
Oops, I quoted that because I meant to say I know exactly what you mean.  Kid pitch at that age is brutal. Everyone says if they're going to pitch, they have to do that at such a young age.  I completely disagree, at that age, pitchers are made in the back yard, not on a LL mound throwing ball after ball no where near a strike.
 
I can't count how many young pitchers (under the age of 12), I've seen quit the sport because they were lit up in front of family and friends. And I'm not even talking about the ones who are heckled.
 

twothousandone

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We've got a five run limit. I've told both my boys five HRs means five hittable pitches. Seven walks means. . . . damn it means you can get a ride home 'cause I'm leaving.
 
I think four walks in a row and the pitcher has to come out (great! Now we can watch another third grader "warm up," because if he doesn't get eight practice pitches how can you expect him to throw a strike?), and maybe it's for BB and/or HPB.
 
My boys leagues do 9/10, then 10/11. Rule is the younger age has to pitch two of the first four innings (with everyone saving their "closer" for the last two). In 9/10, it actually becomes bareable as the season goes on --usually teams can come up with three third graders who can throw strikes, so they have a sub if one gets rattled. The fourth graders are usually pretty good.
 
That's mostly because the third graders who aren't any good often quit. Which sucks -- one year a kid was playing ball for the first time (as I did in third grade) but was up against kids who had all played for at least a year before, and sometimes four years. The league has to do it, though, because soccer and lacrosse are after the same kids. 
 

czar

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Heinie Wagner said:
Oops, I quoted that because I meant to say I know exactly what you mean.  Kid pitch at that age is brutal. Everyone says if they're going to pitch, they have to do that at such a young age.  I completely disagree, at that age, pitchers are made in the back yard, not on a LL mound throwing ball after ball no where near a strike.
 
I didn't play organized ball until 12 or step on a mound in any serious capacity until I was 15 and still started through HS and college (albeit club). 
 
Also, for anything under the age of 13, I don't get the angst about game situations. I umped anything from 8 yo up to 16 yo for a while and it was maddening the anxiousness people had about "is my kid getting enough time doing this, etc." Maybe I'm a weird case, but I'd guess that 95% of my baseball development in that age came from playing ball in the backyard (or at the field with my friends, or at the cages, or whatever). Only a small fraction of it was actually determined by in-game situations (probably until around 8th grade or so).
 
There's no way the quality of 3-4 plate appearances a couple times a week was going to do much of anything tangibly to my skills. I know it seems like a "regression" in this thread's case but I highly doubt the difference between the situations is making any appreciable dent in his "development" (certainly nothing that can't be overcome with a couple hours here and there taking pitches from you or from his friends). All the other aspects (arm strength, fielding, etc.) require repetition on the side, too, before I'd be anywhere near worried about whether or not getting 4 innings instead of 6 at 3B (or who was hitting him the ball) was "stunting" anything.
 

riboflav

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czar said:
 
I didn't play organized ball until 12 or step on a mound in any serious capacity until I was 15 and still started through HS and college (albeit club). 
 
Also, for anything under the age of 13, I don't get the angst about game situations. I umped anything from 8 yo up to 16 yo for a while and it was maddening the anxiousness people had about "is my kid getting enough time doing this, etc." Maybe I'm a weird case, but I'd guess that 95% of my baseball development in that age came from playing ball in the backyard (or at the field with my friends, or at the cages, or whatever). Only a small fraction of it was actually determined by in-game situations (probably until around 8th grade or so).
 
There's no way the quality of 3-4 plate appearances a couple times a week was going to do much of anything tangibly to my skills. I know it seems like a "regression" in this thread's case but I highly doubt the difference between the situations is making any appreciable dent in his "development" (certainly nothing that can't be overcome with a couple hours here and there taking pitches from you or from his friends). All the other aspects (arm strength, fielding, etc.) require repetition on the side, too, before I'd be anywhere near worried about whether or not getting 4 innings instead of 6 at 3B (or who was hitting him the ball) was "stunting" anything.
 
Right on. It's the same in basketball where kids learn how to improvise on the court playing pick-up basketball instead of the tightly controlled practices and games by well-meaning adult coaches. You used to see more development in the off-season than you did during a season. Now that there is no more offseason with the adult invasion of the kids' world, development has been stunted.
 

robssecondjob

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Don't get too wrapped up on the age thing.  My oldest is ten who plays 11 year old soccer and 10 year old baseball.  Most of his school buds are 11 in baseball years.  Kids are much more adaptable to having new teammates.
 
We have a AA, AAA, Majors alignment with 8s and first year 9s required to play AA.  AAA if 9-12 who ended up here by tryouts.  Too good for AA or not good enough for Majors.  Majors is massively competitive and is 10-12.  All kid pitch.  My son got placed on a Majors team provisionally and was the last player cut (8 players for 2 spots).  That is always a fun time.  The head coach liked him enough to "protect" him for next season so he won't have to tryout, he will automatically advance to Majors.  Team option...
 
From the coaching side I love involved parents.  That said I always start the first practice each year by pointing out that I have checked the stands and there are no scouts there.   
 

SoxJox

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I am nearly 60 years old.  How is it that I played (note: I grew up in SW Virginia, and league divisions back in the day were somewhat different) pee wee (6-8), midget (8-10), all with the kids pitching from the get go - no coaches, and we all just seemed to do great.  Hell, we would have been offended by T-Ball.  Then we matriculated into LL (10-12), Pony (13-15), and Babe Ruth (16-18), Sandwiched in with High School ball.  No harm, no foul.  The system produced college players, MLB draft picks, yadda yadda.
 
No, and I don't mean to cast this directly at you Baka, but today's generation (and by this I mean collective leagues and coaching expectations) is all about ensuring that our young studs are provided every opportunity to develop into the next..well, I was gonna say Ken Griffey, Jr., but even he's too old now, so I'll say Miguel Cabrera since he's the latest multi-year gazzilionaire.
 
We simply have lost the joy of the game, I'm afraid.  We are looking for every edge for a ...7, 8 or 9 year old.  We stare at the TV screen day in and day out, and dream about how great it would be if our kid was the next great one.
 
We're too afraid to admit that, well, maybe my kid ain't going to be a star, or more fundamentally, enjoy a sport that "I" do.  I know my now teenage son was a very good baseball player, but he simply fell away from the game because he lost interest.  It was boring compared to soccer and lacrosse, to which he gravitated.  Many parents, mostly fathers, are afraid of this potential I think because they think it will somehow break a link or connection between them and their son.
 
Again Baka, I'm not directing this at you.  I commend your involvement in your boy's growth.  Keep it up.  I've just grown crotchety in may old age.
 

bakahump

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I dont take Offense SoxJox.....and I appreciate ALL the comments in this thread.  Like I said...upclose....part of the situation...I am probably too close (and Jaded/Proud papa) to have an objective opinion.
 
I do work with him on the side alot...really because he wants to. (obviously I enjoy it....but I am not the "Grab your mitt kiddo" guy....its him saying "Can we go out and play?")  So its a good point that any "loss of developmental skills" can easily be replaced by our times playing together.
 
I do hope the friend thing doesnt come back to bite him. 
 

bakahump

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I will have to post some video and we can turn him into our Sosh Baseball equivalent to Ivan Drago.  
 
"Baka make sure he turns his hips another 8 degrees"
"Baka he is dropping his hands too early and not rolling the wrists enough"
"BAKA DO NOT LET THAT ELBOW DROP!!!"
 
:)
 

nattysez

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bakahump said:
I do hope the friend thing doesnt come back to bite him. 
 
FWIW, my 8 y.o. son has very rarely had more than 1 kid on his team that he knew -- and this goes for baseball as well as soccer.  The result is that he seems to know a lot of kids when we walk around our pretty large town/small city, and knows kids from different grades/schools that he wouldn't otherwise know.  IMO, just about everything can be turned into a growing opportunity/positive at this age as long as he's enjoying himself. 
 

EvilEmpire

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Watching 9 year old kids pitch was sometimes tedious, but I was thankful for the extra experience my son got from behind the plate as a catcher :)
 

RIFan

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bakahump said:
I do hope the friend thing doesnt come back to bite him.
Every kid is different, but if they enjoy playing and competing it will be about the sport and not the friends. If the friend thing is a big deal, he probably isn't really enjoying the sport and it's a matter of time before he wants to quit. Odds are that most of his friends will quit baseball by the time they are 12. Year round focus on sports such as soccer and the emergence of lacrosse take out 60-80% of the kids that play baseball at 6-8.

FWIW, my son's primary sport is hockey. He's never had a good friend from town on his team and very rarely played with more than a couple of the same kids in consecutive years. It's made no difference to his enjoyment of playing. In his case, it's probably been good since he is an introvert and it's helped open up to a wider social circle.

In the end water seeks it's own level. Kids will generally encounter bumps in their development, but ultimately talent will win out.

Edit: typo
 

Doug Beerabelli

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I've got a third grader 8 year old, and I'm an assistant coach on the 9u travel baseball team he made, so perhaps I'm not the best advisor on this. But I think he will be fine at the younger age group. Let him be a star for the year. Coach pitch/machine pitch is a great thing for rec leagues. Our league is all kid pitch, and for the most part they get the ball over and catch it well, so game pace is good, but machine pitch is a godsend for rec leagues. Your son will pitch a bit, and he will relish the times he does. And you can coach him up and challenge him on your own as much as you have time to do so.

The flip side of slowed development is delayed burnout, something I have to keep an eye on with my son.
 

bakahump

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Just an update in case anyone was wondering.....
 
He is one of the oldest on his 7-8 team. All but 3 are in 2nd grade (he of course is a third grader).  Only 1 other boy we recognize from other sports.
 
Coach asked if was will to try pitching.