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ALCS 2018 - Houston Astros

Discussion in 'Red Sox Forum' started by DeadlySplitter, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. dhappy42

    dhappy42 Member

    Messages:
    4,857
    Because when a fan touches a ball in the field of play, it’s a dead ball.


    There is no video or photo showing that Betts’ glove crossed the invisible, extended plane of the outfield fence. All the video and photo evidence shows that it did not. It also shows that two or three fans reached into the field of play to try and catch the ball.

    True.

    There was no “the latter” on this play. Mookie, his glove, the ball and the fans’ hands were all in the field of play. Watch it again. Betts’s body was one to two feet away from the wall at the moment of contact between glove, hands and ball. After the ball deflects his body continues to move then bangs into the wall. His arm is extended upwards at a slight angle. Unless his left arm is four feet long, his glove was still in the field of play. It’s even more obvious if you look at the fans. Three of them are reaching into the field.
     
  2. EllisTheRimMan

    EllisTheRimMan Member SoSH Member

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    4,129
    Correct. It was either an out or a HR. No chance for a third option based on the fan interference rules.

    This is a useless discussion going on around a first inning play. Houston built their ballpark so the fans could be right on the field. You do that and you run the risk of a fan interference call that might come back to bite you like last night. The teams combined for 12 runs after the out call was made. I know the media (social and otherwise) love a good controversy. This is not a good controversy. Mookie would have caught it easily if the fans weren’t there. The fraction of a millimeter difference between out of play/in play was not close to being clear enough to overturn.

    Thank Joe West for making the call on the field. I don’t think the opposite call could have been overturned by review either.
     
  3. KillerBs

    KillerBs lurker

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    810
    Two real stories here IMO:

    1. Joe F'in West had a very difficult big time pressure call in an ALCS game and got it right. Well done/good call Joe.
    2. Mookie made a fantastic 5* play (one of two last night) to get to point where only fan interference could "plainly prevent" him from catching the ball.
     
  4. Sox and Rocks

    Sox and Rocks Member SoSH Member

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    5,565
    This guy gets it.

    Yes, it's a problem, but there are no easy, or even practical, fixes.
     
  5. Savin Hillbilly

    Savin Hillbilly loves the secret sauce SoSH Member

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    17,845
    I've watched it several times, and I have no idea how you're seeing it as so clear-cut. It's very difficult to say exactly how close to the rail the guys directly behind Betts are at the moment the ball hits Mookie's glove (about 2:14 here). They're clearly close, but how close? A variation of a few inches in the answer would be the difference between out and HR. My best clue is the guy to the right of that group directly behind Mookie, in the light grey shirt, who's leaning to his right and grabbing the rail with his left hand. He seems to be leaning almost straight to the side, perhaps very slightly forward. Judging by the position of his body, it looks like his hand is maybe 4-6 inches behind the rail. And the ball appears to be a few inches forward of his hand--more or less right above the rail, in other words.

    We'll never know what the true answer is. Probably nobody involved--Mookie or fans--knows for sure what the answer is. Astros fans will naturally feel robbed. Sox fans will naturally feel like the call was fine. On we go.
     
  6. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

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    47,673
    Maybe, but

     
  7. pvg44

    pvg44 Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    526
    Totally agree that it's not clear cut because of the lack of a definitive camera angle. I posted this (admittedly not great) screen shot from a vide from a different angle than is on the MLB.com video you linked. To me it's not when the ball hits his glove, it's when his glove hits the guy, which is when the interference first occurred. From this angle it looks to me like it's right above the yellow line and not behind it.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. chrisfont9

    chrisfont9 Member SoSH Member

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    4,176
    How is MLB supposed to accommodate this? They had 18 innings of baseball and maybe 15 of them were at a reasonable hour for you guys. About six of them happened at a reasonable time for us. I suppose they could swap the AL and NL times, given the teams involved.
     
  9. bosockboy

    bosockboy Member SoSH Member

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    9,846
    Definitely the most compelling look I've seen thus far. Either call could be spun as correct, but we got this one. And frankly we are all pretty certain he was going to catch it anyway whether it was in front of or behind the yellow line. So it feels like the right thing was done.
     
  10. KillerBs

    KillerBs lurker

    Messages:
    810
    That's a generous approach and undoubtedly it was very close to the line, but everything I have seen strongly points to the fans reaching out on to the playing field side of the fence at the point of interference. That said, I am inclined to think that at some point in the transaction, Mookie "broke the plane" reaching over the fence the other way too. But as I read the rule, even if so, if a fan reaches over the plane on to the playing field side and plainly prevents the catch while doing so, that is fan interference even if the player is at more or less the same time reaching over the fence in the other direction. In other words, if both the player and the fan are on the wrong side, and the fan plainly prevents the catch, then it is fan interference.
     
  11. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

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    47,673
    Yes, the length of these games is ridiculous. I need a day off, almost wishing today was a travel day. I mean, in football, even if a game goes into overtime, you're looking at 3 1/2 hours max +/- a few minutes; 3 hours without OT. Basketball 2 1/2 +/- a few minutes. And, our beloved team and the MFY have to have the longest of the longest games.
     
  12. nvalvo

    nvalvo Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    15,518
    I thought Betts didn't learn to throw correctly until he remade his throwing mechanics in AA, adding the fifth tool.

    Remember that he didn't stick as a shortstop because he made three errors in six innings at the position in rookie ball, and the Sox player development people suggested a move to second base.
     
  13. patoaflac

    patoaflac Member SoSH Member

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    925
    I'm in the Central time zone. Game ended at 12.15 and it is difficult to get to sleep after all the emotions. Getting up at 5, means I´m sleepy and also wishing today was a travel day. In the morning I was thinking the same many of you were thinking. How come adolescents will become fans, if they must sleep to go school and be good students? And we, devoted fans, only watch all the game if our team is involved if we must work and be alert on the morning after.
     
  14. Oppo

    Oppo Member SoSH Member

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    1,214
    I’d go into this game knowing that Verlander is most likely to take over the game and try to steal the game ala Craig Counsell.

    Alternate LHP/RHP every 1-2 innings and try to force Hinch’s hand. Price/Workman/EdRod/Hembree/etc. It either gives you a chance or you lose a game you were likely to lose anyway so you just save Kimbrel/Brasier/Barnes and Price can come back as needed in game 7.

    If you start a LHP, you probably force Altuve to start at 2nd, with White/Gattis DH. After you bring in the RHP and Kemp pinch hits, go back to a LHP.
    If you start a RHP, switch to LHP to try to get Kemp out of the game since he’s been a bit of a terror.
     
  15. DennyDoyle'sBoil

    DennyDoyle'sBoil Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill SoSH Member

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    24,873
    One thing that I wish the media would tumble to is where the actual plane is. If you look at the right field wall, the entire top of the wall is painted yellow which means that a ball that hits the top of the wall is in play. Contrast this to the Moster, where the shelf above the painted red line is not in play and is a home run. That means that for purposes of defining what constitutes the "playing field side of such fence, railing or rope" within the meaning of the rule's approved comment, the playing field side is the part of the fence that lies outside the plane that extends vertically upward from the inside (that is the part facing the spectators) part of the wall.

    When this is understood, I really don't think the call is that debatable in the absence of a more dispositive angle. All the video evidence I've seen suggests it is more likely than not that Mookie's glove at the time of interference was on his side of that plane.

    And one final point. The relevant question is where the fan's interfering body part is at the time of the interference, which may or may not be the same as where his body part is at the time he touches the ball. Interference is the act of preventing the catch, which started to occur here with contact with Mookie's glove not with contact with the ball.

    Again, a view down the wall would be crucial. Without one, the evidence that exists to me suggests it's more probable than not that Joe West got this one right.

    There is another part of the rule that is not really being talked about. The interference must prevent the catch, which means the umpire has to judge that the player was going to catch the ball. I think it's fair to say Mookie might have caught the ball. I'm kind of curious how umpires are taught to judge this. Do you presume the ability to make a spectacular play? Can you take the attributes of the player in question into account? Or do you assume something closer to ordinary effort? Is the rule that a ball that has the trajectory to be a home run should be presumptively judged likely to have made it or do you decide that you should never punish the player from being deprived of the opportunity to make a great player if the spectator violates the stadium rules? I think these are all pretty interesting questions and not obvious.
     
  16. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    31,044
    To paraphrase someone other writer a long time ago, listening to the "experts" while out grabbing lunch, the Astros lead this Series 1-3.
     
  17. j44thor

    j44thor Member SoSH Member

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    8,540
    It appears that the orange guys shirt bottom is touching the rail.
    Even if he has trex arms they would still be out past his waist given his slight lean and thus in the field of play.
     
  18. patoaflac

    patoaflac Member SoSH Member

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    925
    Maximum limits of 15 seconds for delivering the pitch and in order not to steal signs baseball should adapt some technology. Pitching coach, manager or a new specialist in the dugout presses a remote control and the catcher and pitcher have an earphone and get the pitch selected. If the pitcher doesn´t want to throw that particular pitch, he nods and the selected pitch is changed. When MLB adopts this strategy patoaflac would like some Red Sox courtesy tickets for the idea.
     
  19. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    31,044
    I was kinda making a joke
     
  20. ookami7m

    ookami7m Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    4,558
    Never forget Joe F'in West had two very difficult big time pressure calls in the 2004 ALCS and got them right. West gets a ton of flack for being the highest form of Ump Show but it's rarely rated to his calls on the field. He's terrible at handling players and escalating situations, but on the calls he's usually spot on.
     
  21. dhappy42

    dhappy42 Member

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    4,857
    To me, it seems very clear in that photo that all three fans are reaching across the plane. As others have said, whether Bett’s glove did or didn’t break the plane, (I don’t think it did, before impact,) isn’t relevant.
     
  22. dhappy42

    dhappy42 Member

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    4,857
    You must be new here. Welcome to SoSH.
     
  23. JimD

    JimD Member SoSH Member

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    6,536
    West was also the umpire at second base who called Dave Roberts safe in game 4.
     
  24. Harry Hooper

    Harry Hooper Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    24,629
    Given his physical status, making Altuve play in the field has some value to the Sox however Game 5 turns out.
     
  25. joe dokes

    joe dokes Member SoSH Member

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    11,809
    I doubt Altuve is playing the field no matter who starts. Maybe Sox should put him on 4 times to make him run the bases.
     
  26. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    31,044
    No---some MLB guy said today it was an HR or an out, because it did hit fan in crowd.

    DISCLAIMER: That does not mean the fan didn't lean over wall and interfere, because he did.
     
  27. Pitt the Elder

    Pitt the Elder Member SoSH Member

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    440
    I know it's been said how special the Sox outfield defense is, but what has been especially impressive this postseason is how often the guys are cutting off hits up the gap and holding opponents to singles rather than doubles. I'm not exactly sure where to look that stat up, but it's felt like 2 or 3 plays like that per game.
     
  28. JohntheBaptist

    JohntheBaptist Member SoSH Member

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    11,268
    Betts keeping Gonzalez from scoring on Correa's double was one of the plays of the game. Betts is the luck from Clark's double going into the stands in 2004 taken human form.
     
  29. Earthbound64

    Earthbound64 Member SoSH Member

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    674
    Honestly, I strongly considered (and quite likely will eventually be) moving west just for the more beneficial starting times / time zone shifts. This whole "We miss the first 2 innings of the game!" thing that some people do is nonsense when games are getting over after midnight for people in the same time zones as the teams playing.
     
  30. santadevil

    santadevil Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    3,509
    Just my own anecdotal evidence, but I haven't been able to watch much of the post season live. Maybe about 10 innings out of 72 played. So I'm typically on DVR. Rarely can I do a 30 second fast forward and not have a pitch delivered. These guys are getting the ball and throwing it, the bigger time suck is the number of pitches and walks. That is what is dragging the games out
     
  31. Pozo the Clown

    Pozo the Clown lurker

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    631
    Per Mad Dog on High Heat today, Big-Mouth Alex Brag-man wouldn't talk to the media after last night's game.
     
  32. Kevin Youkulele

    Kevin Youkulele wishes Claude Makelele was a Red Sox Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    3,385
    Every pitching change during an inning adds about 3 minutes, too (including the time for the manager to walk out, then the reliever enters the field, commercial, and post-commercial reintroduction).
     
  33. In my lifetime

    In my lifetime Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    863
    Good thing Verlander believes in 3s
    4-1 game
    4-1 series
     
  34. DeadlySplitter

    DeadlySplitter Member SoSH Member

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    15,170
    easy. Astros only had one XBH I believe.

    see you on Tuesday!
     
  35. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    35,413
    Hard not to get emotional when thinking about what this start meant to David Price.
     
  36. Muppet

    Muppet Member SoSH Member

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    369
    Someone needs to photoshop the two catches by Beni and the one by Mookie onto that Bregman tweet.
     
  37. lapa

    lapa lurker

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    544
    What I don’t get is why are batters allowed to take time or step out of the box. Why can’t the rule be with a pitch clock to keep the pitcher and fielders from fannying about and then when ball is in pitchers hand the play is live, pitcher can throw and if batter steps out of box tough shit that’s on you. I agree that the pacing and tempo of the game actually isn’t so much of a negative as it’s sometimes claimed but it drives me nuts how often batters call time and back out of the box.
     
  38. lapa

    lapa lurker

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    544
    Every post game interview with hinchcliffe only serves to highlight what a class guy he is that’s for sure.
     
  39. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    5,066
    Here's the rub: The hardcore West Coast baseball fan that buys tickets to the Dodgers doesn't even show up to that game till the 4th or 5th inning. Running your schedule based on the fickleness of the West Coast TV market/viewer has to be bad business.

    I live in LA and I'm 100% behind starting the games earlier (3pm works). Games finishing in the middle of the night ECT is beyond unfair and has to be somewhat uneconomical.
     
  40. lapa

    lapa lurker

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    544
    I’d love to know the rational behind the 7:8 pm ET times I mean I get primetine but who is helped by the thrilling finishes hitting midnight and beyond. I imagine 5 is tough for people getting there from work though

    What do you think would be a good way to schedule games to appeal both to the tv market and not overly piss off regular fans. Also what’s wrong with weekend day games and double headers even for the World Series. ?
     
  41. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    32,718
    When the USA goes to a single time zone this will all work it's way out
     
  42. Clears Cleaver

    Clears Cleaver Lil' Bill SoSH Member

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    Eovaldi striking out Bregman with 102 in the eighth was extra sweet
     
  43. DanoooME

    DanoooME Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    14,879
  44. dhappy42

    dhappy42 Member

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    4,857
    Which means he probably grew up in Texas rooting for the Ratsos. He also started his broadcasting career announcing San Antonio Missions games. They’re the Brewers AAA team. Imagine how bad Anderson would be in a Sox-Brewers World Series.
     
  45. Max Power

    Max Power thai good. you like shirt? SoSH Member

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    3,340
    The Red Sox are still the only team this season that hasn't lost four games in a row. The Astros on the other hand...
     
  46. syoo8

    syoo8 Member SoSH Member

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    Bradley led the Sox with WPA of .680 in ALCS.

    Brasier led the pitching staff with WPA of .390 (per Fangraphs)

    (Betts, Benintendi Kinsler and Vazquez at the bottom.)

    I would post a table but don't know how to export Excel to SoSH.
     
  47. CoffeeNerdness

    CoffeeNerdness Member SoSH Member

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    3,021
    At one point last night he said about the older guy with that huge mustache "he's been at Astros games for as long as I can remember." Guy is a straight up Astros fan.
     
  48. Dewey'sCannon

    Dewey'sCannon Well-Known Member Silver Supporter

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    I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but on Mookie's catch against Bergman last night, the two seats closest to where Mookie made the catch were empty. So not much chance for interference - the closest fan was in a Sox jersey who put his arms straight up, and you could tell from his expression he was making sure he kept his hands clear. All this made me laugh. I wonder if the two empty seats were the guys who interfered in G4 (asked not to return?), or just folks in the bathroom or beer line.
     
  49. uk_sox_fan

    uk_sox_fan Member SoSH Member

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    I fully admit I'm biased by the fact I live in a time zone 5 hours ahead of ET (Game 3 starting at 10pm was heaven though I did shut it off at 2am after JBJ's granny) but as for the argument about what's fair for the fans going to the game, I would think that missing the 1st 2 innings if you can't make it from work in time would be preferable to trying to get out of the city and drive 2 hours to your suburban home beginning at 12:45am...
     
  50. JimD

    JimD Member SoSH Member

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    6,536
    Pretty sure that the networks have a lot of influence, if not outright control, on the start times. They likely want maximum eyeballs from 8:00 to 11:00 p.m. eastern time and care a lot less about how many fans are left if a game runs late. This is likely codified in the contracts with MLB. In other words, it's all about the money, as always.
     

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