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3/3 - Houston @ Boston 3:30pm: Nail in the Coffin II

Discussion in '2018 Celtics Game Threads' started by Red Averages, Mar 2, 2019.

  1. luckiestman

    luckiestman Son of the Harpy SoSH Member

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    10,722


    JB should start AND JB is a head case. He is like this Fitzmagic of the NBA. I like him a lot and I hope he gets it together.
     
  2. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Doesn’t look like brad will pull Morris out of the starting lineup. Awful.
     
  3. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Well, I am ok with that as long as Brown is finishing.
     
  4. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I am curious how you have arrived at the headcase conclusion.
     
  5. mostman

    mostman Member SoSH Member

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    The lack of effort is something he can absolutely address. This isn’t a team fighting for a lottery spot where there’s nothing to motivate them. How is it that they are starting games basically sleepwalking and acting like they are playing a generic opponent at the Y? He can try to stop guys from not rotating, or jacking up stupid threes, or not passing, etc. - just in the way you said. Yes that usually only works on younger guys, but if you are never even threatening to take minutes away, what incentive do players have to change their ways? We call out Brad’s rotations in these threads every night. He’s robotic. If we know it, the players know it. Morris is going to get his 29 every night, even if he shits himself trying to get on the highlight reel.
     
  6. CoffeeNerdness

    CoffeeNerdness Member SoSH Member

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    Per the post you're replying to; yank Morris from the starting rotation. Letting a cantankerous, low effort mediocrity start every single game since November 23 sends a bad message to the handful of players on this team that actually give af. He played well enough at the beginning of the season to warrant starting, but that pixie dust has worn off and he needs to sit and get his minutes chopped. The last two games show that Brad is slowly getting there. I expect he'll finally be ready to make the move by mid April.
     
  7. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Danny should have taken this decision out of Brad’s hands. I don’t care what the return was - MaMo clearly needed to go.
     
  8. CoffeeNerdness

    CoffeeNerdness Member SoSH Member

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    Per post game?
     
  9. Lazy vs Crazy

    Lazy vs Crazy Member SoSH Member

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    The offense is two guys standing in the corner with no movement and no one setting screens.

    The team needs to cut and set screens.
     
  10. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Yes. Says the lineup isn’t the issue
     
  11. shawnrbu

    shawnrbu Member SoSH Member

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    Morris didn’t finish the last two games. Only played 18 minutes tonight. CBS is making progress.
     
  12. shawnrbu

    shawnrbu Member SoSH Member

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    You really think he wants to announce a lineup change when he has to go sit on a 6 hour flight with this group of babies?
     
  13. Imbricus

    Imbricus Member SoSH Member

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    Morris has really drilled his value straight into the ground after being a borderline all-star before the break.
     
  14. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I agree with this. Its understandable that we want Stevens to staple X players to the bench but he needs to keep everyone as engaged as possible for depth, chemistry and reputational reasons.

    The old school, hard ass coach works (to some degree) in high school, college and movies. However its not as effective in the NBA where the players have all the power and teams need to be able to sell themselves to prospective free agents.
     
  15. shawnrbu

    shawnrbu Member SoSH Member

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    LeBron will probably sign him in yet another bad GM move.
     
  16. Jed Zeppelin

    Jed Zeppelin Member SoSH Member

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    Stevens was the right coach for the last few years but the best coach for the personalities is someone like, well, Doc Rivers.
     
  17. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    Setting screens/cutting and physical defense is so last year basketball...

    5 offensive first players standing around the perimeter ready to shoot is the new way
     
  18. Jed Zeppelin

    Jed Zeppelin Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah either he built a shit offense or he literally has no control over any aspect of his team. Either way, the idea that he can’t do anything is laughable.
     
  19. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Doc had a talented roster in LA that had serious chemistry issues and fell well short of expectations. He might outcoach Stevens with this roster but his recent track record doesn't suggest it.

    I don't fault Doc or Stevens for not being effective with veteran rosters - its not an easy job at all. You have to get someone who is more highly paid than you and has more job security to follow your instructions. That is tough.
     
  20. Imbricus

    Imbricus Member SoSH Member

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    I like Stevens a lot, but I'm starting to wonder if he's losing control of the team. Sometimes a coach has to be a dick. I don't think that's his style.
     
  21. CoffeeNerdness

    CoffeeNerdness Member SoSH Member

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    I honestly don't follow. This team's chemistry is already in the dumpster. Grande and Scal were audibly groaning at the lack of effort and chemistry during today's game. What chemistry is Stevens maintaining by continuing to start Morris? He only played 18 minutes today and got zero minutes in the fourth for two consecutive games and there's zero doubt that they played their best today with his ass stapled to the bench in the fourth.
     
  22. SemperFidelisSox

    SemperFidelisSox suzyn SoSH Member

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    This is really Stevens first time dealing with NBA superstars and veteran players. He’s a long way from Butler, or last years group of young players and role players accepting of their roles. He’s dealing with men now with egos,
     
  23. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Sorry, to clarify, he did exactly what he was supposed to with Morris. He played him less. But not playing him at all and not giving Rozier minutes as well isn't just a problem for this season (what happens if Irving or Brown or Tatum goes out with an injury?). Its creates issues down the road where players may not want to come to Boston because Stevens won't let guys work things out on the court. Some may think, so what, but as we have seen, these players all talk, text etc with each other and organizations get tainted. Who knows, maybe Kyrie's seeming unhappiness in Boston has already poisoned the well.

    Again, I am not saying Stevens has done a flawless job nor am I arguing that he is the best coach for this team. I am just not sure who can do better with what appears to be a difficult mix of personalities as well as players in their contract year who aren't on the same page as the rest of the team.

    That said, if we really want to lodge criticism at someone, it should be Ainge. This is his roster. Kyrie was his big get. Stevens is his coach. If people believe that Stevens isn't up to the job (again I am not in this camp but also not begrudging those who think this is the case), its on Ainge for failing to recognize it. So, I guess, in Danny, some of us don't trust.
     
  24. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    The problem is that it isn't Stevens' team any more. It's Kyrie's team and it reflects his personality and approach to the game. Stevens looks to me like a passive minutes manager at this point, afraid to step on Kyrie's toes (or Morris' toes, for that matter).
     
  25. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Then its on Ainge. He should probably be on the hot seat too. I cannot believe Stevens is managing these games without Ainge's input.

    Maybe the Cs need to really blow it up and let Irving and Horford walk along with Morris and Rozier. And also fire Stevens AND Ainge.

    Again, not saying Stevens isn't a problem but if he isn't up to the job, the guy who handpicked him should be under fire as well. Maybe Ainge isn't the right executive to lead this team going forward, especially if fans can see things he seemingly cannot.

    I don't agree with this but I know no more than anyone else here. What I do know is that it will suck if Stevens takes the fall and is hired elsewhere only to find sustained success. That might be more painful than this season.
     
  26. ifmanis5

    ifmanis5 Member SoSH Member

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    The blowup is coming this offseason, that's why they didn't bother to do anything at the deadline.
    This version of the Celtics busted out, hopefully the next version will be much better.
     
  27. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    1,332
    Stevens used to draw up killer plays out of timeouts and at the end of close games. I haven't seen one of those in months. He was also praised for his advanced statistical analysis, to put the best combinations of players on the floor. I haven't seen much success there either, in part because you-know-who has been just plain bad no matter when or with whom he plays.

    It's time for Tatum and Brown to play 35+ minutes, and give some time to Ojeleye. I'd also like to see Theis and Horford play together. If they have played any significant minutes together, I don't remember it.
     
  28. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    I'd think he should say that everything is on the table in terms of how to fix this mess.
     
  29. CoffeeNerdness

    CoffeeNerdness Member SoSH Member

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    I'd say this could easily be true on the opposite end of the spectrum. I forget who the player was earlier in the season who basically called out Gordon Hayward for being an on court liability, but the crux of their quote was 'this guy is hurting them'. So for some there could be the perception that Stevens would let players work through things or the opposite- he giving minutes to a guy coming back from a devastating injury who doesn't deserve those minutes and it's actively hurting the team, or something like "Do I really want to go play in Boston where Stevens keeps running out Morris and his low effort game every night while the team implodes." Either way the time for sticking with the plan is long gone and I think the easiest remedy is redistributing on court minutes and juggling rotations. IMO, a shoot first offensive weapon like Morris is PERFECT for a second unit and a high energy guy like Brown should start. What is there to lose at this point? (Also beyond game thread hyperbole I don't think anyone is legitimately clamoring for Rozier and Morris to get zero minutes. That's a bit of a strawman.)

    Agreed on Ainge and the roster, fwiw.
     
  30. sime

    sime lurker

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    159
    DBMH - you are one of my favorite posters in the forum, and I know a fraction of what you and others do, so this is not to pile on (quoted you earlier), but really? Do you think the Rockets on the bench who were laughing at the Celtics as they got up by 20+ also were thinking "at least Stevens is letting them figure it out?"

    He has given the players plenty of time to work things out on their own, and they haven't done shit. It's been the same cycle since the first game of the season.

    If anything, free agents may be more likely to be thinking this coach is letting his team run wild and deferring to the players too much.

    Also, not that this is bible, but Adam Silver said the other day “I think it’s less calculated than a lot of people think,’’ he said. “The reality is that most don’t want to play together. There’s enormous jealousy amongst our players.’’ (in context, it was preceded by this paragraph: "While fans might presume players are hanging out and devising ambitious plans so that they can play on the same team, Silver stressed that’s hardly the case." source
     
  31. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    27,040
    Look, I don't have any answers and you guys may be right that Stevens is not up to the job. But I think management of egos is, perhaps, the toughest part of a professional (and many college) coach's job.

    Also, it may be that Stevens will figure it out at his next stop like Doc or D'Antoni (who was, until recently, viewed as a flawed coach in NY and LA).

    Ultimately we are stuck with this situation until the end of the season. And I want to emphasize that I would be surprised if Ainge isn't giving input on minutes and rotations to Stevens so perhaps we should be aiming higher here.

    At this point, the range of outcomes for the Celtics going forward is pretty broad. We could see another total rebuild on the fly to a championship next year. Unfortunately the promise this front office, coaching staff and roster held at the start of the year is largely gone. I will still watch and they may yet get hot. However a long run into the playoffs is no longer an expectation.
     
  32. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I appreciate that but I know no more than you and far less than most others here. I would only say that Silver almost has to downplay how much players coordinate with each other for obvious reasons. That said, he has a lot of credibility with me (he is my favorite professional sports league head by a wide margin) so he may well firmly believe what he said. The chatter around the league as well as specific examples (the Heatles, Warriors and even the Rockets are examples of players planning to form teams together) suggests that there is more cooperation amongst competitors than Silver is saying.
     
  33. bosockboy

    bosockboy Member SoSH Member

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    I’ve wondered if this roster flailing this season is proof that the only model that works now is 3 superstars plus ring chasers. Ainge went with some 1a stars, youth and depth.

    This might prove his model just has too many mouths to feed.
     
  34. SemperFidelisSox

    SemperFidelisSox suzyn SoSH Member

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    Do any of Stevens assistant coaches have head coaching experience? I don’t think so. He might benefit from bringing in an enforcer type next season.
     
  35. bosockboy

    bosockboy Member SoSH Member

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    Thibs.
     
  36. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results. It's time to shake up the rotations. Bruise some egos if necessary.
     
  37. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

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    Looks like they need to overhaul that department. Maybe demote/promote Waltah to somewhere in the marketing or community outreach departments.
     
  38. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Walter McCarty is currently the head coach at Evansville.
     
  39. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

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    Oops!
    Then bring him back!
     
  40. HowBoutDemSox

    HowBoutDemSox Member SoSH Member

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    Was Kyrie not a superstar last year? Was Morris or Baynes not a veteran? Any critique of this season’s chemistry has to account for it being very similar from a roster standpoint. Whether that’s the impending free agents or Hayward’s return or Tatum and Brown chafing at not having the same roles they did in the playoff run last year or the increased expectations, but it’s not just the roster construction.
     
  41. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    It was an unnamed GSW player who said this.
     
  42. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    And Hayward looked better starting two games after that. SSS.

    CN is right that another player said that. It anonymous quote from a Golden State Warriors player (it had to be one of Green, Durant, Cousins or Iguodala because Klay Thompson doesn't say anything and its not in Curry's nature to talk about other players like that) though so I am not sure how much weight it carries. Furthermore, I am not sure that Stevens letting a player like Hayward get some run to see if he can continue to work himself back into shape bothers players as much as it does fans. Fans pay and watch to see their teams do well. The players know that if you are seeded highly enough, the regular season is a marathon and individual games aren't that meaningful (Durant was asked about the "playoff atmosphere" after their game against the 76ers and just said it was a regular season game in March when teams are trying to up their intensity. But he appeared to be dismissing the weight of the outcome).

    The point is, as competitive as these guys are, I doubt they view early and mid-season games as all that important. That is, unless "Playoff Mode" has been activated.
     
  43. gedman211

    gedman211 Member SoSH Member

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    Philly had "The Process"
    Ainge gave us "The Ponzi"
     
  44. lars10

    lars10 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    I think the problem (or one of the problems) is that they don't have enough role players... or more accurately they have a number of role players that think they're stars. Stevens has played into that by treating them all equally (more or less) and giving them equal minutes all the way around. There are basically two players that he treats as role players, Theis and Timelord who have seemed to actually have hustled on D every time they're in... he's done nothing to impose his will on this team (as far as I can tell) other than having a very regimented time allotment for each player or set of players. He hasn't (seemed to) reward or punish any behavior on the court. So players like Morris get starter's minutes night after night regardless of his form.. Brown comes off the bench even though he's playing better etc. etc. I know they're 'men' (20-30 year olds), but it seems like the best way to take away any incentive to perform well or to not change behaviors. It's frustrating to watch and I don't understand what the method is supposed to do.. did he do this same thing previous years? Or is just this team so 'talented' that he's had to change up his normal coaching style and hasn't adapted well? In other years he did an amazing job getting the most out of rosters.. this year he's seemed to have found a way to have gotten the least out of pretty much everyone up and down the roster.
     

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