21st Century Tiny Archibald?

Sprowl

mikey lowell of the sandbox
Dope
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2006
34,452
Haiku
Tiny was generously listed at 6'1", but nobody believed that. He was left-handed, had a great handle, unlimited nerve, a monster year in 1973, and a championship in 1981.

Isaiah Thomas has a lot of the same game, although he doesn't yet have the body control of Nate at his peak. He certainly has the chutzpah, though. 21st Century Nate?
 

JohnnyTheBone

Member
SoSH Member
May 28, 2007
36,344
Nobody Cares
The C's 1981 championship team was my first year watching the NBA.  I was too young to be a sophisticated viewer, but I remember Tiny as much more of a distributor than a scorer.  Of course, I missed the early part of his career.  Once thing TIny and Isaiah have in common is a hellacious ability to penetrate.
 
Man, the 1980's with the Celtics, Sixers, Lakers, and Pistons was the golden age of basketball. 
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Thursdays Factoid of the Day:

The year Tiny Archibald led the NBA in Scoring and Assists he averaged 46 mpg and was coached by non other than Bob Cousy.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
JohnnyTheBone said:
The C's 1981 championship team was my first year watching the NBA.  I was too young to be a sophisticated viewer, but I remember Tiny as much more of a distributor than a scorer.  Of course, I missed the early part of his career.  Once thing TIny and Isaiah have in common is a hellacious ability to penetrate.
 
Man, the 1980's with the Celtics, Sixers, Lakers, and Pistons was the golden age of basketball. 
Tiny in Celtic green was my first real knowledge of him.  My memory is that no man ever scored as many points with a release point below 6'-0" -- it seemed like his trademark move was a scoop layup after cutting thru the towers in the paint.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,680
Tiny was my favourite player when I was a kid, when the Celtics acquired him I must have celebrated for a week. My enduring memory of his time in Boston was a regular season game against the Sixers, maybe 81 or 82? Anyway, it was a close game with Boston ahead and they were into "foul the guy with the ball time". On the final possession Boston got the ball to Tiny who proceeded to dribble away from every 76er while staying out of reach of the defenders. With a couple of seconds left he dribbled out past the three point line and with a quick glance back at the basket to see where it was launched a two handed scoop shot over his head which actually connected. The funniest damn thing I've ever seen.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
63,777
Rotten Apple
IT is still a week away according to Danny. Once again a dirty Wade shove costs Boston. That possibly could cost us a playoff spot.
 

greatpiino

New Member
Apr 23, 2010
19
RI
Yup, it really irks me that Wade's reckless lack of body control is hurting us again. Even Gorman mentioned during last night's broadcast that he likes the guy less and less every time he watches the replay, although he may have been alluding to the "stare" that Wade threw in IT's direction after the incident. I know it's an immature thing to say, but I really wish someone would toss an elbow his way next time we see him. Make one of those "fouls" he always draws count.
 

swingin val

New Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,162
Minneapolis
ifmanis5 said:
Once again a dirty Wade shove costs Boston. That possibly could cost us a playoff spot.
Good god. There was no shove, and there was nothing excessive about the foul. It was a play that happens a dozen times a game.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
swingin val said:
Good god. There was no shove, and there was nothing excessive about the foul. It was a play that happens a dozen times a game.
Stop this!! You're interrupting my enjoyment of listening to irrational Celtics fans create their own living straw man.

Please carry on people. Wade is the devil with a goal of eradicating everything Celtics, am I right?
 

MainerInExile

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 21, 2003
4,825
Bay Area
ifmanis5 said:
IT is still a week away according to Danny. Once again a dirty Wade shove costs Boston. That possibly could cost us a playoff spot.
 
So we should send him a fruit basket or something?
 

Sprowl

mikey lowell of the sandbox
Dope
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2006
34,452
Haiku
21st Century Tiny did it again, with a behind-the-neck pass to Crowder in the corner for the three, after drawing a double team. He's still the team's only creator in the clutch.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,406
around the way
21st Century Tiny did it again, with a behind-the-neck pass to Crowder in the corner for the three, after drawing a double team. He's still the team's only creator in the clutch.
Yep. The team was spiraling downhill until he came off the bench. He stabilized the offense and took over that half of the floor. When the Nets countered with having everyone keep one eye on him at all times, he made that ridiculous pass. He must have had that scoped out before he passed the free throw line.
 

sox311

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 30, 2004
1,753
That's what she said.
He saved and won that game last night no question about it. He had seven points in about a minute and twenty seconds. The floater, the jumper in the key, and the top of the arc three. That stopped the bleeding and later the circus pass... "The Little Guy!!!"
 

thehitcat

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 25, 2003
2,377
Windham, ME
It was an amazing pass. I was in the house last night, Loge 9 just to Crowder's right and a little above him. The pass was so quick we all thought IT had lost the ball and then it hit Crowder in the hands Crowder hit the shot and the place exploded. Just a great moment leaving my nephew and his buddy screaming "Did you see that?!?! Did you see that?!?!"
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,478
Melrose, MA
I don't buy the "he's too small" to be a lead scorer anymore. His problem is the same one as Paul Pierce's before Kevin and Ray came to town.
 

RetractableRoof

tolerates intolerance
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2003
3,836
Quincy, MA
I don't buy the "he's too small" to be a lead scorer anymore. His problem is the same one as Paul Pierce's before Kevin and Ray came to town.
Will you accept that he is too small to score during the playoffs? Last night in the first half (maybe longer) he got bumped and brushed during drives in a small way. With his frame he got bounced to the ground or off the drive. By rights they should have been called fouls, but the amount of contact was such that the referees appeared to be reluctant to call it. I saw (eye test failure?) the same thing in the playoffs last year. He wasn't getting the foul calls, and therefore the value of the penetration was negated.

Until the referees are willing to make those calls during the playoffs his value will be minimized - which is a damn shame because he is fun to watch.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,478
Melrose, MA
Will you accept that he is too small to score during the playoffs? Last night in the first half (maybe longer) he got bumped and brushed during drives in a small way. With his frame he got bounced to the ground or off the drive. By rights they should have been called fouls, but the amount of contact was such that the referees appeared to be reluctant to call it. I saw (eye test failure?) the same thing in the playoffs last year. He wasn't getting the foul calls, and therefore the value of the penetration was negated.

Until the referees are willing to make those calls during the playoffs his value will be minimized - which is a damn shame because he is fun to watch.
Honestly, I think... Give him someone to take the pressure off and he'll be fine. I think he gets stopped when he has to be the first, second, AND third option on offense. Sure, there are guys who could do a better job of going it completely alone, but I'd much rather find a way to add another legit scorer to the mix than upgrade from Isaiah to a better one. Put him and Bradley in the backcourt of those Pierce/KG Celtics teams instead of Ray and Rondo and I don't think you necessarily see much of a drop off, at least on offense.
 

RetractableRoof

tolerates intolerance
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2003
3,836
Quincy, MA
Honestly, I think... Give him someone to take the pressure off and he'll be fine. I think he gets stopped when he has to be the first, second, AND third option on offense. Sure, there are guys who could do a better job of going it completely alone, but I'd much rather find a way to add another legit scorer to the mix than upgrade from Isaiah to a better one. Put him and Bradley in the backcourt of those Pierce/KG Celtics teams instead of Ray and Rondo and I don't think you necessarily see much of a drop off, at least on offense.
I won't take the bait to discuss the Thomas/Bradley versus Rondo/Allen pairings. I'd waste the rest of the night and neither of us would be amused... lol
If they do get him a support he'll likely be more effective - but when he does drive, if he doesn't get the foul call then Stevens won't be able to put him on the floor. His outside shooting is good but isn't consistent enough to sustain him, and he doesn't bring enough defensively.

I do hope you are right, I enjoy watching him. I just don't see it.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,472
Somewhere
I won't take the bait to discuss the Thomas/Bradley versus Rondo/Allen pairings. I'd waste the rest of the night and neither of us would be amused... lol
If they do get him a support he'll likely be more effective - but when he does drive, if he doesn't get the foul call then Stevens won't be able to put him on the floor. His outside shooting is good but isn't consistent enough to sustain him, and he doesn't bring enough defensively.

I do hope you are right, I enjoy watching him. I just don't see it.
Iverson did well enough in the playoffs.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,478
Melrose, MA
I won't take the bait to discuss the Thomas/Bradley versus Rondo/Allen pairings. I'd waste the rest of the night and neither of us would be amused... lol
I'm guilty of hyperbole there. IT isn't as good as either Pierce or Allen, so put into their shoes he would do worse because they are better. That said, I don't think the problem with that swap would be IT getting shut down offensively.
 

RetractableRoof

tolerates intolerance
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2003
3,836
Quincy, MA
Iverson did well enough in the playoffs.
He did, largely because be was persistent and sacrificed his body repeatedly in the process. I would submit that he didn't get a fraction of the foul calls that he deserved either. I don't if it was because of HIS build or just the referees.

Perhaps a topic for another time - but some players just don't seem to draw fouls the way they should. Pierce early on and still in pockets would drive and often not get a call on a legit foul. I wonder why that is - lack of rapport with the refs??
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
"Lil Isaiah" will be in the league next year when Oakland's Kay Felder is drafted somewhere in the 30's-40's this summer. Throw in "Lil Spud" (Big Spud?) with Tyler Ulis and you've got some fun fun energizers entering the league.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
63,777
Rotten Apple
Bravo, IT4!

52 total points, only McHale and Bird have scored more in a game in franchise history.
29 pts in the 4th qtr, most ever pts in one qtr in franchise history.
29 4th qtr pts is the most in the history of the league other than Wilt's 100-game in 1962 (31).
9 3-pt made FG ties franchise record with Antoine Walker.
The last Celtic to score 50 in regulation was Bird with 50 in 1989 (Pierce had 50 in 2006 in 2OT)

Truly a historic performance.
The deep 3 with :38 seconds left is a great call and moment.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,472
Somewhere
I don't know about Tiny but right now Thomas is playing like the modern incarnation of Allen Iverson (the version that cared).

The Celtics a giant shot blocker away from being like that 00-01 Sixers team, though.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,673
I don't know about Tiny but right now Thomas is playing like the modern incarnation of Allen Iverson (the version that cared).

The Celtics a giant shot blocker away from being like that 00-01 Sixers team, though.
The guy who reminds me right now of prime AI is Westbrook, except Westbrook is a better passer and much better defender than Iverson ever was.

IT over the last ten games is something else: 32 ppg shooting 50-40-90 and the Celtics are 8-2.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,214
I don't know about Tiny but right now Thomas is playing like the modern incarnation of Allen Iverson (the version that cared).

The Celtics a giant shot blocker away from being like that 00-01 Sixers team, though.
I am with you on the AI comp. Iverson 2.0 with a better outside shot, similar game around the rim and slightly inferior handles.

Westbrook is such a unique player and so good that he should be a comp for another future great player someday down the line.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,214
After tonight's 13-34 (6-11 from deep) 38 point performance, IT4 is now fourth in PPG. The guy is an elite offensive player and those step-backs he had are moves only a few guys in the Association can do consistently. He is a joy to watch.
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
32,622
After tonight's 13-34 (6-11 from deep) 38 point performance, IT4 is now fourth in PPG. The guy is an elite offensive player and those step-backs he had are moves only a few guys in the Association can do consistently. He is a joy to watch.

He scores 38 tonight and I didn't even feel like it was a big deal. It just happened in the flow of the game. Danny can't even have imagined he was going to be this good.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,094
He scores 38 tonight and I didn't even feel like it was a big deal. It just happened in the flow of the game. Danny can't even have imagined he was going to be this good.
Marcus Thornton and the pick that ultimately became Skal Labissiere for a guy averaging 28ppg. Not too shabby, Danny.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,478
Melrose, MA
After tonight's 13-34 (6-11 from deep) 38 point performance, IT4 is now fourth in PPG. The guy is an elite offensive player and those step-backs he had are moves only a few guys in the Association can do consistently. He is a joy to watch.
Actually, he was 13-24. One of the things that impresses me about him is that he doesn't get his 30 by chucking up 30+ shots - he's actually a very efficient offensive player.

Part of why he is scoring with such ease of late is because his teammates are hitting their 3s - right now they are on a run of 4-5 straight games of hitting at least 17 threes, not all of which are Isaiah's.

Contrast this to last season's playoffs. During the regular season last year, Boston's leading three point shooters were Thomas (167 made threes at 36%), Bradley (147 at 36%), Crowder (122 at 34%), Olynyk (85 at 41%), Smart (61 at an awful 25%), and Jerebko (43 at 40%).

But in the playoffs, Isaiah did not have this kind of support. He didn't shoot well from 3 (13 makes at 28%), Bradley went 1-7 in game 1 before going out for the playoffs, Crowder was caming back from the ankle injury and didn't shoot well (only 10-41), Olynyk was on his was to shoulder surgery and was ineffective (0-3 from deep), Turner was lousy as expected (3-14). The only guys who helped even a little were Smart (11 makes at 34%), Jerebko (7 at 32%), Rozier (4 at 36%).

Even last year, if you have a healthy Bradley, Olynyk, and Crowder, it's a very different playoff run.

And Isaiah's main problem isn't that he's 5'8", it is that he's the only scorer on the team. Any other guy would have the same problem.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,958
Saskatoon Canada
The guy who reminds me right now of prime AI is Westbrook, except Westbrook is a better passer and much better defender than Iverson ever was.

IT over the last ten games is something else: 32 ppg shooting 50-40-90 and the Celtics are 8-2.
Wetbrook is a poor comparison to AI.

Westbrook is 6'4 200 and physically dominates people with explosiveness and strength. He is 30 to 40 lb heavier than Iverson. AI got knocked down 5 times every game but got up, Westbrook is more likely to knock people down. Iverson had, I believe one triple double in his career, while Westbrook has 17 this year. Westbrook is a much better all round player, at this point of his career, anyway. WB is also know as a super dedicated workout fiend, not as a "practice?' guy.

I guess they both scowl a lot.
 
Last edited:

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
26,993
Newton
Actually, he was 13-24. One of the things that impresses me about him is that he doesn't get his 30 by chucking up 30+ shots - he's actually a very efficient offensive player.

Part of why he is scoring with such ease of late is because his teammates are hitting their 3s - right now they are on a run of 4-5 straight games of hitting at least 17 threes, not all of which are Isaiah's.

Contrast this to last season's playoffs. During the regular season last year, Boston's leading three point shooters were Thomas (167 made threes at 36%), Bradley (147 at 36%), Crowder (122 at 34%), Olynyk (85 at 41%), Smart (61 at an awful 25%), and Jerebko (43 at 40%).

But in the playoffs, Isaiah did not have this kind of support. He didn't shoot well from 3 (13 makes at 28%), Bradley went 1-7 in game 1 before going out for the playoffs, Crowder was caming back from the ankle injury and didn't shoot well (only 10-41), Olynyk was on his was to shoulder surgery and was ineffective (0-3 from deep), Turner was lousy as expected (3-14). The only guys who helped even a little were Smart (11 makes at 34%), Jerebko (7 at 32%), Rozier (4 at 36%).

Even last year, if you have a healthy Bradley, Olynyk, and Crowder, it's a very different playoff run.

And Isaiah's main problem isn't that he's 5'8", it is that he's the only scorer on the team. Any other guy would have the same problem.
This is a really good point. I would have to imagine that Al, now that he is settling in, is having an impact here. It seems like in the last few games he is hitting wide open threes because the defense is having to help on a penetrating IT. Crowder also looks to my eyes to be playing much better, whereas for the first month after the ankle injury he didn't look like the same two way impact player he was a year ago. These guys being able to be in open space seems to be making a difference.
 

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
5,934
Cultural hub of the universe
Wetbrook is a poor comparison to AI.

Westbrook is 6'4 200 and physically dominates people with explosiveness and strength. He is 30 to 40 lb heavier than Iverson. AI got knocked down 5 times every game but got up, Westbrook is more likely to knock people down. Iverson had, I believe one triple double in his career, while Westbrook has 17 this year. Westbrook is a much better all round player, at this point of his career, anyway. WB is also know as a super dedicated workout fiend, not as a "practice?' guy.

I guess they both scowl a lot.
The similarity to me is that both play with a reckless abandon and velocity that no one else seems able to match.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,214
Actually, he was 13-24. One of the things that impresses me about him is that he doesn't get his 30 by chucking up 30+ shots - he's actually a very efficient offensive player.

Part of why he is scoring with such ease of late is because his teammates are hitting their 3s - right now they are on a run of 4-5 straight games of hitting at least 17 threes, not all of which are Isaiah's.

Contrast this to last season's playoffs. During the regular season last year, Boston's leading three point shooters were Thomas (167 made threes at 36%), Bradley (147 at 36%), Crowder (122 at 34%), Olynyk (85 at 41%), Smart (61 at an awful 25%), and Jerebko (43 at 40%).

But in the playoffs, Isaiah did not have this kind of support. He didn't shoot well from 3 (13 makes at 28%), Bradley went 1-7 in game 1 before going out for the playoffs, Crowder was caming back from the ankle injury and didn't shoot well (only 10-41), Olynyk was on his was to shoulder surgery and was ineffective (0-3 from deep), Turner was lousy as expected (3-14). The only guys who helped even a little were Smart (11 makes at 34%), Jerebko (7 at 32%), Rozier (4 at 36%).

Even last year, if you have a healthy Bradley, Olynyk, and Crowder, it's a very different playoff run.

And Isaiah's main problem isn't that he's 5'8", it is that he's the only scorer on the team. Any other guy would have the same problem.
Yes, typo in my original post but it allowed you to make a great point. I will add that in addition to being efficient, he appears to be a good guy based on his interviews and how his teammates treat him.

Chemistry is one intangible that, imho, carries more weight in a sport like basketball simply because in an ideal system, players are deferring to the one with the best shot to score or trusting one another to back up on defense.

Based on how he interacts with his teammates (they were trying to get him the ball on just about every possession when he was in the midst of his 52 point performance) employee number four seems to be well liked by his coworkers.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
63,777
Rotten Apple
Marc Stein:
Isaiah Thomas' 15 assists against Utah account for the fourth-highest assist total for ANY player in their first game after a 50-point game....Only five players have EVER followed up a 50-point game with a 15-assist game.
 

Sir Lancelotti

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
284
Boston
On his best games (like last night) Smart is giving me poor mans Dennis Johnson vibes. Lockdown defender, hybrid guard that doesn't have the size or reliable jumper to be a natural 2 but has more aggressive scoring instinct than a classic point. Both defend multiple positions and are capable of locking down much bigger players (Smart on Davis / DJ on Magic etc...). Smart even stepped his game up in last year's Atlanta series, lets hope he inherits DJs big game pedigree as well.

Obviously this is blasphemy, I'm comparing a HOF to an energy guy off the bench, but I do see some stylistic similarities, not that i expect Smart to reach that ceiling. This is hopefully not quite as far fetched as Heinson comparing Avery Bradley to Michael Jordan after one too many scotch and tonics during a playoff game his rookie year.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,472
Somewhere
WB is also know as a super dedicated workout fiend, not as a "practice?' guy.
Definitely a huge change in how athletes take care of themselves that happened over the past decade or so. Obviously in the NBA there have always been guys like Jordan and Malone but they were the exception.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,958
Saskatoon Canada
Bird, Magic, West, Pistol Pete, etc were gym rat dedicated. To them playing the game, skill attainment, game experience was the goal. IMHO opinion some guys, Maravich and Bird, probably should have backed off the time in the gym to let their bodies recover, and done more strength training to etc. I was trying to be a player in those days and all the basketball camp stories were about how many hours guys shot, etc. The pendulum may have swung a bit too far the other way, especially for forwards.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,214
That step-back is a thing of beauty and with his touch and arc, its hard to stop. He is just peaking as a player right now.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,214
What's remarkable about Iverson 2.0 is that he is just ruthlessly efficient in all aspects of scoring. After going 15-15 from the FT line tonight, he passed Kawhi Leonard to the third best FT% in the league (91.4%) behind Paul George and Steph Curry. And he is seventh overall in FTA. He is an elite scorer. That's what he is.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,478
Melrose, MA
What's remarkable about Iverson 2.0 is that he is just ruthlessly efficient in all aspects of scoring. After going 15-15 from the FT line tonight, he passed Kawhi Leonard to the third best FT% in the league (91.4%) behind Paul George and Steph Curry. And he is seventh overall in FTA. He is an elite scorer. That's what he is.
Also a damned good passer, as elite scorers go. Underrated part of his game.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
63,777
Rotten Apple
Celtics guard Isaiah Thomas averaged 32.9 points in January, the 4th-best average scoring month in Celtics history (Paul Pierce has the best, 33.5 in February, 2006). It is the highest scoring January in Celtics history.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,214
Night in and night out. Night in and night out. Gets buckets when he wants to and, more importantly, when the C's need him to. Its breathtaking.