2019 Patriots: Post-SB Roster Thread

[Saints Rest]

They are running four deep at LB with Hightower, Van Noy, Bentley, and Roberts. You could argue for putting it in the second category given Van Noy, Roberts, and Hightower are nearing the end of their contracts, but I don't see it up with the more urgent needs you have listed there.

I know there's some clamor for 230-pound coverage LBs, but Belichick hasn't compromised on this to date and I don't see him doing so after they won a SB largely on their 250-pound LBs just mauling an undersized Rams team. I think if anything they'd address this via safety (if they had a second Chung, he would play a lot).

I disagree. I think BB hasn't been able to find someone who fits this bill (probably since Phifer retired) but not for lack of looking. I think Jamie Collins was this guy; I think they've tried to find this guy multiple times since.

If Gurley had been the pre-injury Gurley, if Hunt hadn't been suspended, I think this hole would have been far more glaring.

Finding this guy is really hard -- it's why TB12 and JMcD salivate whenever they see most LB's lined up opposite White, Burkhead, Edelman, or Gronk. And I think it's a big part of why the RPO gives the Pats such fits.

 

[BigJimEd]

Gilmore cap move kicks the can a bit, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that he's a 20M value in 2021.

Really immaterial. What matters is if he is worth new money due then, around $11-12M.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Really immaterial. What matters is if he is worth new money due then, around $11-12M.

Yep, dead money is dead money. All that matters is what’s coming out of whatever spendable amount is left in the piggy bank.

 

[SMU_Sox]

They are running four deep at LB with Hightower, Van Noy, Bentley, and Roberts. You could argue for putting it in the second category given Van Noy, Roberts, and Hightower are nearing the end of their contracts, but I don't see it up with the more urgent needs you have listed there.

I know there's some clamor for 230-pound coverage LBs, but Belichick hasn't compromised on this to date and I don't see him doing so after they won a SB largely on their 250-pound LBs just mauling an undersized Rams team. I think if anything they'd address this via safety (if they had a second Chung, he would play a lot).

Sorry @Saints Rest I think this is the case also. I am a sucker for undersized or smaller super athletic LBs. Last year I was all over Fred Warner. I believe BB would prefer 3 safeties. Either that or huge/large LBs who are athletic are gone by the time they pick which I suspect is also part of the reason - so I do think you have a point there.

Jamie Collins was 250 pounds and to steal a bit from @Super Nomario was a converted edge guy (I had forgotten that, thanks!).

 

[Saints Rest]

No offense taken! If we all agreed, it would be pretty boring around here.

 

[Super Nomario]

I disagree. I think BB hasn't been able to find someone who fits this bill (probably since Phifer retired) but not for lack of looking. I think Jamie Collins was this guy; I think they've tried to find this guy multiple times since.

When? All their high picks at LB have been big dudes. They've dabbled in third safeties to try to get the big nickel/dime going (Tank Williams, John Lynch, Adrian Wilson, arguably even Tavon Wilson and Jordan Richards), but I haven't seen evidence they're looking for the coverage 'backer type.

 

[bigq]

Sorry @Saints Rest I think this is the case also. I am a sucker for undersized or smaller super athletic LBs. Last year I was all over Fred Warner. I believe BB would prefer 3 safeties. Either that or huge/large LBs who are athletic are gone by the time they pick which I suspect is also part of the reason - so I do think you have a point there.

Jamie Collins was 250 pounds and to steal a bit from @Super Nomario was a converted edge guy (I had forgotten that, thanks!).

Roman Phifer’s reported playing weight was 248. Definitely an athletic dude but I think he pretty much fits the 250 lb bill as well.

I can’t think of the last Patriots LB in the 230 lb range that got considerable playing time.

 

[Phil Plantier]

I can’t think of the last Patriots LB in the 230 lb range that got considerable playing time.

Heck, anything to procrastinate.

Meet Rob Holmberg, 5 starts in Year 1 of the Age of Belichick (2000) (he played 112 games as a 7th round pick - good for him)

Before that, David Howard had 15 starts in 1991-92 for some terrible teams.

The last Patriot LB that you may remember (if you're of a certain age like me) that was listed at 230ish was Johnny Rembert from 1983-92

 

[nattysez]

Disappointing note from Reiss:

Similar to how the Patriots made an aggressive pitch to receiver Adam Humphriesin free agency and didn't close the deal, a source close to tight end Jared Cook said the Patriots aggressively courted him before Cook elected to sign with the Saints late last week. Rob Gronkowski's uncertain status seems to have played a significant part in Cook's thinking, as there is clearer path to a top role on the tight-end depth chart in New Orleans.

Seems odd that Cook couldn't be sold on being part of a TE tandem with Gronk .

 

[Super Nomario]

Disappointing note from Reiss:



Seems odd that Cook couldn't be sold on being part of a TE tandem with Gronk .

The Saints have an outstanding track record getting production out of tight ends, too. Picking, I dunno, the Lions over the Pats would have been kinda dumb, but picking the Saints is pretty reasonable.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

The Saints have an outstanding track record getting production out of tight ends, too. Picking, I dunno, the Lions over the Pats would have been kinda dumb, but picking the Saints is pretty reasonable.

Yeah, I would’ve done the same thing. Cook is near the end of the line and wants snaps/targets. He’s getting those in NO.

 

[rodderick]

With the Gronkowski retirement, Brady now has far and away the worst group of pass catchers in the league to work with. Bill better have a plan here.

 

[amfox1]

With the Gronkowski retirement, Brady now has far and away the worst group of pass catchers in the league to work with. Bill better have a plan here.

Between the draft and draft-day trades, the Pats need two starting receivers (WR/TE). Loosing out on Cook seems worse in retrospect.

 

[DeadlySplitter]

well, the Cook situation looks like shitty timing now.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Cook isn't signed yet. This changes things now that there's no Gronk.

 

[The Mort Report]

With the Gronkowski retirement, Brady now has far and away the worst group of pass catchers in the league to work with. Bill better have a plan here.

Yes the depth sucks but do you really think a group headed by Edelman and White are by far the worst in the NFL? I don't think there are many pairs of pass catchers on another team I wouldn't want on the field in a key 3rd and 7. While they may be near the lowest on big play potential that's not how the offense is built

 

[rodderick]

Yes the depth sucks but do you really think a group headed by Edelman and White are by far the worst in the NFL? I don't think there are many pairs of pass catchers on another team I wouldn't want on the field in a key 3rd and 7. While they may be near the lowest on big play potential that's not how the offense is built

Yes, I think you'd be hard pressed to find 3 receiving groups worse than Julian Edelman, James White and a whole bunch of unproven guys, camp bodys and JAGs.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

With the Gronkowski retirement, Brady now has far and away the worst group of pass catchers in the league to work with. Bill better have a plan here.

I too wonder if Bill has a plan or was caught with his pants around his ankles as usual.

They entered the ‘07 offseason with a much worse group than this.

 

[InstaFace]

I too wonder if Bill has a plan or was caught with his pants around his ankles as usual.

They entered the ‘07 offseason with a much worse group than this.

"As usual"?

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

"As usual"?

As “usual”

For clarity’s sake, I was being facetious.

 

[soxhop411]

This might be the one time the patriots trade up for a TE/WR if they really want someone. I don’t think they can afford the risk of hoping the player “falls”to them.

 

[Willie Clay's Big Play]

I'm pretty sure I saw someone much smarter than me post what it would take to move up to the projected pick to snag Hockenson. I don't remember the details but it was a steep price.

Granted, a strong team isn't going to make 12 picks and expect them to stick, but 3 3rds are pretty valuable.

To summarize - trade up for Hock.

 

[rodderick]

I too wonder if Bill has a plan or was caught with his pants around his ankles as usual.

They entered the ‘07 offseason with a much worse group than this.

By this point in 2007 they had already added Welker and Stallworth, no? Either way, I'm not saying this group is what they'll start the season with, just that with Gronk's retirement they have very little talent at WR/TE and have already missed out on two targets (Cook and Humphries). They'll add guys, but it's far and away the weakest area on the roster.

 

[Super Nomario]

Yes the depth sucks but do you really think a group headed by Edelman and White are by far the worst in the NFL? I don't think there are many pairs of pass catchers on another team I wouldn't want on the field in a key 3rd and 7. While they may be near the lowest on big play potential that's not how the offense is built

Not just big play potential, the depth is awful. Bracket Edelman, put a DB on White, and who exactly is going to beat you? It's like a worse version of the 2009 skill player group.

This might be the one time the patriots trade up for a TE/WR if they really want someone. I don’t think they can afford the risk of hoping the player “falls”to them.

I don't know that we ought to put all our hopes in a rookie, either. Gronk and Hernandez were amazing and neither cracked 600 yards as rookies. The draft is going to displace some veteran options, or at least change the value they have to their teams, and make some guys available who aren't today - much like Trent Brown last year. The preseason will open other opportunities. I expect multiple picks at TE / WR but I don't expect we've seen the last of veteran additions.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Yes, I think you'd be hard pressed to find 3 receiving groups worse than Julian Edelman, James White and a whole bunch of unproven guys, camp bodys and JAGs.

It's a good thing there isn't a game this Sunday.

 

[dcmissle]

Looks like it could be a big trading year, esp if they can’t circle back with Cook.

Lots — most? — of their draftees are effectively red shirted, and the freshmen years of Gronk and Hernandez are telling. It’s not reasonable to expect more than than.

They are just not likely to put the 2019 season in the hands of a draft class.

 

[rodderick]

It's a good thing there isn't a game this Sunday.

Why even have an offseason thread if we can't even point out the areas of the roster they are very thin at? Especially when there's little left in free agency. I think everyone is aware they'll make moves, but right now WR/TE it's as weak a position group as they've had in any late March I can recall.

 

[bunchabums]

They also have one of the most versatile and deepest running backs in the league. Bill zigs when other zag. Dominant line and great running backs are an advantage in the league right now

 

[BigSoxFan]

On the one hand, I’m bummed about Gronk but on the other hand, I’m kind of excited to see where the Pats net out at WR/TE here.

 

[BaseballJones]

I could see them drafting two TEs this year, and both of them pretty highly. They have tons of ammo to do it and BB does love him some TEs.

 

[DJnVa]

 

[Garshaparra]

They also have one of the most versatile and deepest running backs in the league. Bill zigs when other zag. Dominant line and great running backs are an advantage in the league right now

Not to get all negative Nancy, but IMHO, the key to the success of the running game in 2018 was having two of the best blocking TEs in the league out there doing the job. The Pats ran far more out of 22 than they passed, and even with teams knowing this, they still couldn't beat them. Now one of them is in Miami, and the other one will be in New Jersey (for Wrestlemania 35). That doesn't mean BB can't make this work again in 2019, but he'll be starting from scratch, not with years of continuity.

 

[Red Averages]

I was going to start a poll that said "predict the week rumors about Gronk returning come up", but this lasted 15 hours, so not worthwhile!

 

[tims4wins]

 

[dcmissle]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26351437/the-greatness-rob-gronkowski-next-patriots

“All of this works because Gronk allows the Patriots to beat opposing defenses regardless of how they line up. Other tight ends can’t do that.”

(Cook provides only half the solution.). And it’s not a sky-is-falling piece from a nitwit. Author confident they will find a solution, but it’s going to be very interesting to see how they get there.

 

[Super Nomario]

Aside from Bailey, there are a lot of other intriguing DL on the market: Suh, Ziggy Ansah, Mo Wilkerson, Tim Jernigan. They could sign one or two of those guys, cross DL off the needs list for the draft, and load up on TE / WR.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Aside from Bailey, there are a lot of other intriguing DL on the market: Suh, Ziggy Ansah, Mo Wilkerson, Tim Jernigan. They could sign one or two of those guys, cross DL off the needs list for the draft, and load up on TE / WR.

Yup. A third OT makes a ton of sense for a veteran signing as well and they could easily do both. The team needs at least a non-disastrous solution in case somebody gets hurt or Wynn has trouble. But its hard to rely on a rookie to be non-disastrous unless they're picked really high yet spending a really high pick (1-2) doesn't make a lot of sense given other team needs and the fact that Wynn is on his rookie deal and Cannon is signed relatively affordably thru 2021.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Why even have an offseason thread if we can't even point out the areas of the roster they are very thin at? Especially when there's little left in free agency. I think everyone is aware they'll make moves, but right now WR/TE it's as weak a position group as they've had in any late March I can recall.

You can point it out as much as you want as that is what we do here and talk about it. I just wouldn't worry about this too much on March 25th. If they don't upgrade this area by June 25th, then we have a problem. No one can replace Gronkowski so anyone they could have gotten in FA would be a downgrade. I do trust that Bill and Co. will have a plan going forward.

 

[bakahump]

I agree with that article.

We really cant expect anyone (we have a reasonable chance to acquire) to replace even 50% of what Gronk did. As the article said, the guys who can catch like him cant block, and the guys who can block like him cant catch.

If you build a team around Bobby Orr or Gretzky, when they leave you dont just sign or draft the best Defense man or Center and expect the team to continue as it had.

Instead you go in a different direction based on you remaining skill sets and what you can acquire.

I wouldnt have been surprised to see the Pats roll out 4 wides and Sony/White. Daring teams to go Dime and have Sony kill them with death by 1000 runs(and White with Screens) behind the strong line. Or Stay in something slightly more conservative (nickel) and let WRs run wild as Brady throws them open. Alas they dont have the personnel for that either (no Humphries, Only Edelman etc etc)

So while I dont know what the plan is I doubt its drafting Hock (who will be a really good player) and asking him to be the Next Gronk. Cause if we know anything about replacing a GOAT, its that you cant replace a GOAT.

It would be Folly to expect that we can replace the Queen of the Chessboard. Instead we need to start playing Backgammon.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Aside from Bailey, there are a lot of other intriguing DL on the market: Suh, Ziggy Ansah, Mo Wilkerson, Tim Jernigan. They could sign one or two of those guys, cross DL off the needs list for the draft, and load up on TE / WR.

Those are some legit guys there. I really hope we nab one of them with the additional cap space that we now have.

 

[BaseballJones]

I agree with that article.

We really cant expect anyone (we have a reasonable chance to acquire) to replace even 50% of what Gronk did. As the article said, the guys who can catch like him cant block, and the guys who can block like him cant catch.

If you build a team around Bobby Orr or Gretzky, when they leave you dont just sign or draft the best Defense man or Center and expect the team to continue as it had.

Instead you go in a different direction based on you remaining skill sets and what you can acquire.

I wouldnt have been surprised to see the Pats roll out 4 wides and Sony/White. Daring teams to go Dime and have Sony kill them with death by 1000 runs(and White with Screens) behind the strong line. Or Stay in something slightly more conservative (nickel) and let WRs run wild as Brady throws them open. Alas they dont have the personnel for that either (no Humphries, Only Edelman etc etc)

So while I dont know what the plan is I doubt its drafting Hock (who will be a really good player) and asking him to be the Next Gronk. Cause if we know anything about replacing a GOAT, its that you cant replace a GOAT.

It would be Folly to expect that we can replace the Queen of the Chessboard. Instead we need to start playing Backgammon.

Agreed. But let's not forget that they won a Super Bowl without Gronk. Bennett was a fine tight end, but not remotely in Gronk's class. And they won it anyway.

 

[Super Nomario]

Yup. A third OT makes a ton of sense for a veteran signing as well and they could easily do both. The team needs at least a non-disastrous solution in case somebody gets hurt or Wynn has trouble. But its hard to rely on a rookie to be non-disastrous unless they're picked really high yet spending a really high pick (1-2) doesn't make a lot of sense given other team needs and the fact that Wynn is on his rookie deal and Cannon is signed relatively affordably thru 2021.

I think an OT signing makes sense but the offensive free agent market is pretty picked over. Most of the interesting names are on D. Offensive reinforcements will likely have to come through the draft and / or trade.

Agreed. But let's not forget that they won a Super Bowl without Gronk. Bennett was a fine tight end, but not remotely in Gronk's class. And they won it anyway.

Sure, but the receiving depth on the 2016 squad was way better. Amendola was the 4th WR on that team and barely played in the regular season.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Not roster related but not sure where else to put this.

 

[tims4wins]

Not roster related but not sure where else to put this.

Well I put it in the Kraft thread. Ha.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Not roster related but not sure where else to put this.

Maybe announcement of the Game 1 opponent?

 

[Saints Rest]

Those are some legit guys there. I really hope we nab one of them with the additional cap space that we now have.

I wonder if this additional cap space opens up a route for a trade for a WR1, e.g. AJ Green.

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

I wonder if this additional cap space opens up a route for a trade for a WR1, e.g. AJ Green.

AJ Green on one side, Gordon on the other with Eldleman in the slot along with Cook or drafted tight end. I'm okay with that. 12-4 and Gronk comes back for the last two games and the playoffs.

 

[BigSoxFan]

I wonder if this additional cap space opens up a route for a trade for a WR1, e.g. AJ Green.

It certainly helps in a big way to fit AJ’s salary in. Really holding out hope on this one although there’s still be zero indication that Bengals are even remotely interested.

 

[dcmissle]

If you had the time, one could probably go roster-by-roster and identify people who are likely to be Patriots at WR and/or TE. There are probably not that many players.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

AJ Green on one side, Gordon on the other with Eldleman in the slot along with Cook or drafted tight end. I'm okay with that. 12-4 and Gronk comes back for the last two games and the playoffs.

If we pair AJ Green with Gordon then we can have two guys the Pats can't count on when it counts. I'm out on AJ Green. I hope Gordon the best and hope he gets it together.

I'm not sure what better option there is but Green's toughness bothers me.