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2018 NBA offseason thread

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by DrewDawg, May 30, 2018.

  1. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Walton's problem wasn't his knees, it was his feet.
     
  2. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Isn't Walton a better defending Jokic?
     
  3. ifmanis5

    ifmanis5 Member SoSH Member

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    He's hard to comp but probably a hybrid of Love, Embiid and Marc Gasol.
     
  4. TripleOT

    TripleOT Member SoSH Member

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    Walton is surely hard to comp. Great defender, strong rebounder at both ends whose big frame and reach seemingly covered a good part of the entire backboard when he sprung for a rebound, amazing at outletting the ball to start the fast break, preternatural passer in the halfcourt, solid mid-range shooter, great finisher. Incredibly smart player, whose team filtered both the offense and defense through him. Fiery competitor, something a lot of giants of that era weren't.

    Arvydas Sabonis was somewhat of a comp, even in career arc, first as a do it all young big, and then in the NBA as a plodding center. basketball savant.
     
  5. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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  6. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    So Al, KI and Heighwerd are top 30. I’ll take 3/30 or 5/50 in league any day. Not even gonna bicker on slots.
     
  7. Devizier

    Devizier Member SoSH Member

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    Oden has to be like 50 now, right?
     
  8. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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  9. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Oden would be incredibly bad PR.
     
  10. sezwho

    sezwho Member SoSH Member

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    Yes, absolutely he would bring value in today's game. I don't think he would have shied away from developing a three point shot either.
     
  11. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    I haven't seen the top 30 yet, but there are quite a few guys in the 31-38 range that no rational person's taking over Tatum. Even in terms of 2019 production.
     
  12. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    I'm not quite old enough to remember prime pre-injury Walton, but IIRC the '86 version had nothing resembling the Joker's shooting, scoring, ballhandling, or passing skills. (Walton was the better rebounder and post defender, though).

    Jokic's a Top 5-10 NBA player next season, imho — closer to the current late-career, defensively-challenged LeBron James than he is to '86 Walton.
     
    #1362 Sam Ray Not, Sep 12, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
  13. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Check this article out: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...ampionship-memphis-state-2016sep16-story.html.

    Walton could score when he was younger but his best attribute was court vision and passing. I mean he took a team consisting of Maurice Lucas; Bob Gross; Lionel Hollins; Johnny Davis; Lloyd Neal; Dave Twardzik; Herm Gilliam; Corky Calhoun (yes real name); Larry Steele; Wally Walker; and Robin Jones to the NBA Championship.

    Ever hear of any of them except Lucas and Hollins?

    BTW, as good as Jokic might be I just used him as a comp. He's nowhere near as good as the 1970s Walton when he wasn't injured.
     
  14. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    Hayward #25
    Kyrie #17
    Horford #16
     
  15. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    Oh, no doubt; I was talking exclusively about the '86 version.

    As far as the peak '70s version: Just glancing at the stats (assist rate, scoring rate, scoring efficiency, e.g.), I think I could still argue that Jokic is the marginally better offensive player of the two, but of course peak Walton was an absolute historic monster on D and on the glass; and in terms of impact on wins those things are typically more important for a big man than offense (Bill Russell, Ben Wallace, et al. say hi).
     
    #1365 Sam Ray Not, Sep 12, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
  16. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    Jokic is far far better than 86 version of Walton.
     
  17. Lazy vs Crazy

    Lazy vs Crazy Member SoSH Member

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    Draymond Green over Horford is kinda a head scratcher, in't it?
     
  18. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    Is it?
     
  19. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    [recuses self]
     
  20. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Yes, it is.
     
  21. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    There may be some debate, but it is certainly not a head scratcher. They are quite similar, IMO.
     
  22. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Yes, but Al is bigger and better.
     
  23. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    Without question. However, Walton's passing was still ridiculous then. As good as Jokic is at passing, Walton was a treasure, albeit in far fewer minutes.

    Old Walton's role in 86 was to not give up leads when chief sat. The scoring and circus passes were gravy.
     
  24. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    Again, besides the bigger part, it is certainly debatable.
    Green is a superior passer, a more versatile defender, and 4 years younger
    Horford sets better screens, shoots the three better, and isn't a complete tool.
     
  25. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    The Dre Green of a couple of years ago is gone. He seems to be saving himself for a contract year push. So, yeah, Horford is better these days.
     
  26. ifmanis5

    ifmanis5 Member SoSH Member

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    Westbrook had knee surgery today:

    Royce Young‏Verified account @royceyoung 2h2 hours ago
    Russell Westbrook underwent arthroscopic surgery on his right knee today after feeling some stiffness in the last week. It's a preemptive "maintenance" procedure. He'll be re-evaluated in four weeks, which could force him to miss the preseason.
     
  27. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    Take away the "block some shots" (admittedly extremely important), and you just described Greg Monroe.

    It's pretty bleak out there for trad centers.
     
  28. TheRooster

    TheRooster Member SoSH Member

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    No one who saw both Walton and Monroe play would ever write such a thing.
     
  29. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    If all you saw was the hobbled 1987 version of Walton, one certainly could. It wouldn't matter how good of a passer or interior defender Walton was. In today's game, he would get absolutely toasted on switches and would be useless defending on the perimeter (just as Monroe is). His lack of outside shooting would be highly problematic for floor spacing (just like Monroe).
     
  30. bankshot1

    bankshot1 Member SoSH Member

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    Bill Walton without injuries was a brilliant low-post center, offense and defense and he was a great passer. Bad wheels was the only reason which prevented him from climbing NBA's Mt Rushmore and taking his place with the all-time NBA centers.

    He was Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem great, but he had it in one package.
     
  31. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Walton could operate out of the high post, too. Like Garnett he was a legitimately great mid range shooter. And he was certainly very mobile for the size. Yes, by 1987 he was Greg Monroe slow, but that's not really the guy those of us that watched him play are talking about.
     
  32. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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  33. Bunt4aTriple

    Bunt4aTriple Member SoSH Member

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    I admire your restraint in not replacing Butler with Klay!
     
  34. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Breaking news: Sam Ray Not thinks Russell Westbrook is overrated :)
     
  35. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Westbrook is overrated. Jimmy Butler at 10 seems really high too. Embiid as well and I can understand leaving Kawhi out of the top 10. He has to prove he's there again.
     
  36. The Social Chair

    The Social Chair Member SoSH Member

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    It's close but I think i'd rather have Klay than Butler.
     
  37. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    I’d rather have Klay by a decent margin. Much better shooter in a league where shooting is paramount.
     
  38. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    Seemed like we were talking about the 1986 and onward version, in which case I stand by the comp. People forget Monroe got paid $80M not long ago, and it was considered a win for the Bucks.

    Obviously younger Walton would be a total star in any version of the league.
     
  39. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Boston overused Walton in '87, which is part of the reason he broke down then. Also, Monroe signed that deal before the worm turned on old fashioned centers.
     
  40. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    There is also a difference between Monroe, a good passing center, and Walton, one of the greatest passers of all time.
     
  41. PedroKsBambino

    PedroKsBambino Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Walton in 1986 was a better defender and passer than Jokic is today. Jokic was a vastly better shooter, and his ability to play 30+ minutes makes him a much better player. But you are misremembering Walton's passing ability (or overestimating Jokic's) if you think he's a signficiant better passer than Walton. The 1986 Celtics probably had the two best passing big men in history on the same roster...and there's plenty of highlights out there showing what that looks like.
     
  42. PedroKsBambino

    PedroKsBambino Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Walton played a total of 112 minutes in 1987, the problem wasn't overuse...he was just broken by then. Did you mean overused him in 1986? By Walton's standards, 19 minutes a game for 80 games sadly was indeed overuse.
     
  43. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, sorry, the vagaries of a soon-to-be-senior citizen typing on his small phone (because he despises phablets, they’re phucking phugly). I should really just not forum unless I’m using my tablet.

    In ‘87 it was McHale that Bosto rode into the ground. That Bias death killed them in oh so many ways. Not the least of which was their inability to let McHale get the foot taken care of without sacrificing their record.
     
    #1393 nighthob, Sep 15, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
  44. ifmanis5

    ifmanis5 Member SoSH Member

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    Seems like Butler will be going somewhere at some point...

    Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @wojespn 11m11 minutes ago
    Jimmy Butler's meeting w/ Minnesota management early next week as @JonKrawczynski reports. Butler, Tom Thibodeau have had a strong relationship for years, but there are organizational issues that need to be sorted. Source on meeting: "Whatever needs to be communicated...will be."
     
  45. PedroKsBambino

    PedroKsBambino Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Totally agree there, sadly.
     
  46. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    I do not think it is any bit of hyperbole to say that Jokic is at worst an equal passer now than Walton ever was. Jokic is really fucking good.
     
  47. Euclis20

    Euclis20 Member SoSH Member

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    Walton was really good, but I agree that Jokic is being underrated here. Walton never averaged over 5 apg, Jokic averaged 6.1 last year. Walton averaged 4.3 assists per 36 minutes, Jokic is averaging 5.8 assists per 36 minutes. Walton also averaged 3.8 turnovers per 36 minutes, to just 2.8 per 36 for Jokic. The advanced stats (assist percentage and turnover percentage) are ugly, with Jokic having massive advantages in both.

    Memory is fuzzy, and no one is watching Jokic in Denver. Guy is a phenomenal passer.
     
  48. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    There are plenty of highlights showing what Jokic’s absurd passing skills look like, too. But more tellingly: last year’s Jokic averaged 6.7 assists and 3.1 turnovers per 36 minutes, to Walton’s 3.8 assists and 3.5 turnovers in 1986.

    I was more inclined to think Jokic was the marginally better passer, but after seeing Walton’s poor turnover rate (at pretty low usage) I’m pretty comfortable with “significantly better.”

    No argument with Larry being (probably) the best passing big man in history.
     
  49. Devizier

    Devizier Member SoSH Member

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    I think people just forget how much better the players are today.
     
  50. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    They are way more well rounded than they were back in the day. Brad Lohaus was punished for being able to shoot the 3. In today's game, he'd be rich.
     

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