2018 NBA Game Thread

jon abbey

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Melo always took a lot of flak because he was not a legit franchise player capable of taking a team to the title, but what he really was was a championship #3 (at his peak, which lasted a long time). That sounds underwhelming, but that puts him in company with Chris Bosh and Kevin Love and Klay Thompson, that's a pretty damn good player, just not the #1 he thought he was.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Fwiw, here's a different historical RAPM site that also — at a quick glance, I could be wrong — fails to turn up Melo in the top 25 of any season, even in his prime. Feel free to dig through and let me know where he shows up:

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/

I can't vouch for the methodology in these rankings or the other one I cited, but to the standard "this scrub / role player is on the list so the whole metric must be totally invalid" line, I would note that every other commonly-accepted superstar from this era (that I can think of, anyway) tends to appear somewhere in the top 5-10-20. Melo really seems uniquely reviled relative to his peers by adjusted plus-minus measures.

Edit: d'oh, nevermind, he does turn up all the way at #14 on the 2014-15 list. Hoisted on my own petard, lol. To be safe, I'll stick with "never top 10."
 
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Sam Ray Not

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Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. Just heard this. Can't bring myself to watch the video. Just as he was really blossoming. Such a fucking cruel blow for him and Nets.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Pels — without Mirotic and Payton, and starting Wes "I'm still in the NBA" Johnson — with an impressive wire-to-wire beatdown of the 12-1 Raptors. 126-110.
 

mikeot

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Anybody else watch this just-ended Pelican beatdown of the Raptors in Toronto? Whatever it takes to get AD, do it Danny.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Was just about to type that SRN. Future Celtic or Warrior Anthony Davis had 25 points, 20 boards, six dimes and two blocks. +/- leader for the Pelicans was old Celtic bench warmer, E'Twaun Moore who had 30 points on 13-18 shooting and a plus 21. And yes Kawhi played tonight...
 

HomeRunBaker

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Was just about to type that SRN. Future Celtic or Warrior Anthony Davis had 25 points, 20 boards, six dimes and two blocks. +/- leader for the Pelicans was old Celtic bench warmer, E'Twaun Moore who had 30 points on 13-18 shooting and a plus 21. And yes Kawhi played tonight...
This was the quietest 25/20 that I've ever seen. I watched most of this game and it was the guards that won the game for New Orleans. Moore and Holiday combined for 59 while limiting Lowry to one layup late in the 4th after the game was decided as he and Danny Green shot 2-13 for 7 points.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Embiid 35 pts (8-15 fg, 16-20 ft), 18 rebounds as the depleted Sixers beat Miami, 124-114.

I was skeptical about Embiid as a Top 10 player at the start of the season, but I think I'm buying in now. Heck, put him on my growing list (with AD, KD, Curry and a couple others) of "players who are quite possibly better than 34 y.o. grey-bearded LeBron, or will be soon."
 

Kliq

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LeBron moves to SRN's conference and the defensive mechanism kicks in.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Was just coming in to post about the Levert injury. Awful. Kid was really starting to play well, and the Nets were looking to finally be on the come, and this happens. Fortunately, I saw the video, but looked away when I heard his scream, so I didn't see the end result. Just a shitty, shitty set of circumstances.

Towns through 2 games without Butler is starting to show out. Tonight, he had 25 points (9/11 shooting, 2/2 from deep), 21 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 blocks. He did have 10 turnovers, as the Nets seemed to double him every time he touched it, but when he got a shot off, they went in.
 

jon abbey

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I really like GS and usually root for them, almost always enjoy watching historical greatness (this past baseball season aside, heh). But wow would the league be interesting and open right now without them, something like 15 teams with legitimate hopes of possibly making the Finals (5 in East including Indiana, and 10 in the West at least). Instead that is all happening and no one is close to GS, who still have Boogie coming.

Nice win for the Clips, the West is impressively deep.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The Clippers were relentless and the Warriors suffered from Durant getting in foul trouble and then fouling out on a Harrell rip-through (Marc Davis should be embarrassed at that call).

As a side note, Harrell is off to a great start this season though its his rebounding and defense that are making a leap. The Clips are a tough draw for anyone - they don't have any superstars or even the next level. However they are incredibly deep and play hard. They remind me a lot of Denver and Utah in that they don't rely on one or two guys to carry them - they have enough players on the roster to beat teams in multiple ways.
 

Apisith

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Embiid 35 pts (8-15 fg, 16-20 ft), 18 rebounds as the depleted Sixers beat Miami, 124-114.

I was skeptical about Embiid as a Top 10 player at the start of the season, but I think I'm buying in now. Heck, put him on my growing list (with AD, KD, Curry and a couple others) of "players who are quite possibly better than 34 y.o. grey-bearded LeBron, or will be soon."
He’s an MVP candidate right now. Top 5 player because he’s unstoppable.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The Clippers were relentless and the Warriors suffered from Durant getting in foul trouble and then fouling out on a Harrell rip-through (Marc Davis should be embarrassed at that call).

As a side note, Harrell is off to a great start this season though its his rebounding and defense that are making a leap. The Clips are a tough draw for anyone - they don't have any superstars or even the next level. However they are incredibly deep and play hard. They remind me a lot of Denver and Utah in that they don't rely on one or two guys to carry them - they have enough players on the roster to beat teams in multiple ways.
Wait, are you saying you didn't think that was a foul? At worst, it could have been called a rip-through and side out but that still sits Durant with his 6th foul.There was obvious contact on the way up.
 

tbrep

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I really like GS and usually root for them, almost always enjoy watching historical greatness (this past baseball season aside, heh). But wow would the league be interesting and open right now without them, something like 15 teams with legitimate hopes of possibly making the Finals (5 in East including Indiana, and 10 in the West at least). Instead that is all happening and no one is close to GS, who still have Boogie coming.

Nice win for the Clips, the West is impressively deep.
Yeah, it’s horrible to root for injuries but the league really needs a season ending injury to KD or Curry to generate some suspense. Otherwise, it’s essentially a long (albeit entertaining) 82-game preseason with a predetermined winner.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Yeah, it’s horrible to root for injuries but the league really needs a season ending injury to KD or Curry to generate some suspense. Otherwise, it’s essentially a long (albeit entertaining) 82-game preseason with a predetermined winner.
I mean, people said this exact thing about them last year and they ended up as the #2 seed, seven games back of #1, dropped down to a 3% shot on 538 before the playoffs (GJGE Nate Silver, but there's a pretty wide gap between 3% and 100%), and even after the CP3 injury in WCF Game 5 needed to dig out of 17-point and 15-point holes in two elimination games to avoid an early summer. The fact that they pulled it out in the end is not evidence that it was predetermined, or anywhere close.

Not a ton has changed this year, unless you think post-Achilles Cousins (who seems to be coming along, but very slowly) will be a massive upgrade over JaVale and DWest. I don't, personally. I like the youth and energy of the supporting cast better this year, but Andre and Shaun are a year older; and it's not like Looney, Cook, Jones, Bell, Jerebko, and McKinnie are the difference between beatable and unbeatable.

I'd also argue that Toronto and Milwaukee (and Boston, when they get their act together) are at least as strong, deep, and built to compete with the Warriors as last year's Rockets were, and miles more so than any of last year's Eastern teams were. 538 currently has the Warriors odds at 58%, which, unlike 3%, seems like the right ballpark. Even if you think it's more like 75%, that's still worth watching for — like the chances (if you're rooting for the 25%) of Raffy Devers getting a hit.

Anyway, I can't get too bent of shape about secretly rooting for injuries since I might do the same if they weren't my team (though "season-ending" seems a little unsporting, knocking wood). But now seems like an odd time to do so, since in the past week they've been destroyed on their home floor by the Bucks and taken down by the scrappy Clips (in a fantastically entertaining and competitive game, BS Durant ejection notwithstanding).
 
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jon abbey

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Yes, but this year it’s the top East teams that will beat the crap out of each other while GS looks to have no one who can test them in the West. As it’s been for years, seeding the top 16 teams regardless of conference would instantly make the league a few notches more appealing.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Wait, are you saying you didn't think that was a foul? At worst, it could have been called a rip-through and side out but that still sits Durant with his 6th foul.There was obvious contact on the way up.
Independent of context, I could see making that call maybe 25% of the time. There was obvious contact, but calling it a "rip through" is an exaggeration of how minor it was. KD had his hand out in a normal post-defense stance, then pulled it back immediately to avoid contact as Harrell swung his arms into him, resulting in a very slight graze.

In context I think it was a bit more bullsh*t, since (a) KD had already been whistled for 2-3 highly questionable calls to get him to five; and (b) the ref initially swallowed his whistle and let the play go, then changed his mind, which means he plenty of time to ponder the ramifications of ejecting the Warriors' best player for a borderline call in tight OT game.

Whiny Warrior fan alert, but: how many times has LeBron James fouled out in his career, again?
 

Sam Ray Not

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Yes, but this year it’s the top East teams that will beat the crap out of each other while GS looks to have no one who can test them in the West. As it’s been for years, seeding the top 16 teams regardless of conference would instantly make the league a few notches more appealing.
Agreed. The fact that TOR-MIL-BOS — pretty clearly the #2-4 teams this year, at least on paper — have to beat up each other and that the Ws only have to face one of them (if they get that far) is a source of some comfort for me this year, so presumably a source of aggravation for fans of optimal competitive balance.

Of course, it's been the exact opposite scenario for years before this one: as the Ws started their rise in 2013-14, their fans complained constantly about how unfair it was to have to get through the impossible Western Conference gauntlet (Spurs, Thunder, Clippers, Rockets, e.g.) while the East basically consisted of LeBron's team and a bunch of pretenders.

But two wrongs don't make a right. I'm all for re-seeding.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Agreed. The fact that TOR-MIL-BOS — pretty clearly the #2-4 teams this year, at least on paper — have to beat up each other and that the Ws only have to face one of them (if they get that far) is a source of some comfort for me this year, so presumably a source of aggravation for fans of optimal competitive balance.

Of course, it's been the exact opposite scenario for years before this one: as the Ws started their rise in 2013-14, their fans complained constantly about how unfair it was to have to get through the impossible Western Conference gauntlet (Spurs, Thunder, Clippers, Rockets, e.g.) while the East basically consisted of LeBron's team and a bunch of pretenders.

But two wrongs don't make a right. I'm all for re-seeding.
Philly is easily in the Tor/Mil/Bos group too. As for records, it's too early to tell. Portland could win 55+ games and most people still wouldn't consider them a real contender. I think Houston will be right there by season's end too. The west is much deeper than the east and has less bottom feeding teams to beat up on, especially if the Kings and Grizzlies don't actually suck.

edit: I'm not saying Portland will win 55, I'm just saying any team in the west probably isn't going to get much respect because they are going to be new blood.
 

Sam Ray Not

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In "hoisted on his own petard" department, Golden State of Mind unearthed this ironic 2011 nugget from Grantland on the origins of Harrell's rip-through move that sent Durant packing last night:

The most egregious exploiter of the rip-through is easy to single out. Almost by himself, Kevin Durant turned an infrequent incident that lacked any specific name into a problem the league was compelled to address.

When Durant is hassled by a bulldog like Tony Allen, he swoops his arms in a half-moon arc into the defender’s arms and flings the ball feebly toward the basket. Visually, the result is a shot attempt so deformed and hideous that referees blow the whistle with the same instinct that might possess a Darwinist to stomp on a mutated, four-eyed frog. It’s unnatural.

While Durant is the poster child for the rip-through, other players have integrated the chintzy gimmick into offensive repertoires that otherwise consist of fine, polished china.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I am well documented as being a Draymond fan in this forum but I trust the Warriors braintrust made the right decision here. He made a bad decision that may have cost the Warriors a win.

The subtext of some of these accounts of what transpired suggest that not only did he not own his poor decision making but was defiant in the face of criticism. We don't know exactly what happened but Kerr/Myers et al don't strike me as a front office who makes decisions simply on optics.

That said, I expect the Warriors to move past this fairly quickly.
 

BigSoxFan

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I am well documented as being a Draymond fan in this forum but I trust the Warriors braintrust made the right decision here. He made a bad decision that may have cost the Warriors a win.

The subtext of some of these accounts of what transpired suggest that not only did he not own his poor decision making but was defiant in the face of criticism. We don't know exactly what happened but Kerr/Myers et al don't strike me as a front office who makes decisions simply on optics.

That said, I expect the Warriors to move past this fairly quickly.
I think there’s a very real chance that Durant leaves this summer and ownership knows it. The cynic in me thinks this is an appeasement move.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I think there’s a very real chance that Durant leaves this summer and ownership knows it. The cynic in me thinks this is an appeasement move.
Perhaps but I don't think that suspending Green appeases Durant per se. If it wasn't justified, its likely to increase the friction in the locker room rather diffusing it. Draymond doesn't seem like the kind of person who will be ok with political moves whereas he comes off as a thoughtful enough guy that if he was really wrong, he will eventually own it. Of course I don't know any of this but its just my speculation from following the team over the past few years.

That said, I think Durant is likely to consider moving on and the Lakers would be a good fit for him as a second banana to LeBron. If Durant goes to the Knicks, he is setting himself up for the type of scrutiny that has bristled him in the past. He is clearly a quirky guy and is much better served playing in a city where he isn't the focal point. Just my .02
 

BigSoxFan

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Perhaps but I don't think that suspending Green appeases Durant per se. If it wasn't justified, its likely to increase the friction in the locker room rather diffusing it. Draymond doesn't seem like the kind of person who will be ok with political moves whereas he comes off as a thoughtful enough guy that if he was really wrong, he will eventually own it. Of course I don't know any of this but its just my speculation from following the team over the past few years.

That said, I think Durant is likely to consider moving on and the Lakers would be a good fit for him as a second banana to LeBron. If Durant goes to the Knicks, he is setting himself up for the type of scrutiny that has bristled him in the past. He is clearly a quirky guy and is much better served playing in a city where he isn't the focal point. Just my .02
I do agree that they run the risk of pissing off Draymond. Hard to know without all the details. Durant’s FA decision will be interesting. I’m not sure why he’d want to go to LA to be LeBron’s Robin. I think the next step for him is to return to being an alpha and going to NY gets him that as well as a ton more marketing exposure.

The Knicks actually have a pretty appealing situation. Porzingis is there to be the second star. Hardaway provides a quality secondary scoring option. A solid coach is in place. You have some nice young players and assets in Knox, Ntilikina, Robinson, and Trier. And you have a potential top 5 pick coming in 2019 that could be used to take a top young player or could be dealt to nab that 3rd star.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I am well documented as being a Draymond fan in this forum but I trust the Warriors braintrust made the right decision here. He made a bad decision that may have cost the Warriors a win.

The subtext of some of these accounts of what transpired suggest that not only did he not own his poor decision making but was defiant in the face of criticism. We don't know exactly what happened but Kerr/Myers et al don't strike me as a front office who makes decisions simply on optics.

That said, I expect the Warriors to move past this fairly quickly.
What happened on the floor was standard competitor stuff. What I'd like to have been is a fly on the wall in that locker room......or even better, a fly with a camera in that locker room! I'd wager that something more than innocuous occurred behind closed doors last night.

A little on-court spat would never be disciplined by a one game suspension as the players union would immediately be involved. In that respect it wouldn't simply be a Kerr/Myers suspension......but also one that the PA would not take action against. I don't know what happened after the game but I'm pretty certain "something" severe enough for the PA to agree with the suspension happened.
 

ElUno20

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I'm with HRB. Something pretty harsh had to go down to get him a game without pay.
 

The Social Chair

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I do agree that they run the risk of pissing off Draymond. Hard to know without all the details. Durant’s FA decision will be interesting. I’m not sure why he’d want to go to LA to be LeBron’s Robin. I think the next step for him is to return to being an alpha and going to NY gets him that as well as a ton more marketing exposure.

The Knicks actually have a pretty appealing situation. Porzingis is there to be the second star. Hardaway provides a quality secondary scoring option. A solid coach is in place. You have some nice young players and assets in Knox, Ntilikina, Robinson, and Trier. And you have a potential top 5 pick coming in 2019 that could be used to take a top young player or could be dealt to nab that 3rd star.
Teaming up with Kawhi in LA with the clippers would be his best non Warriors move.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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What happened on the floor was standard competitor stuff. What I'd like to have been is a fly on the wall in that locker room......or even better, a fly with a camera in that locker room! I'd wager that something more than innocuous occurred behind closed doors last night.

A little on-court spat would never be disciplined by a one game suspension as the players union would immediately be involved. In that respect it wouldn't simply be a Kerr/Myers suspension......but also one that the PA would not take action against. I don't know what happened after the game but I'm pretty certain "something" severe enough for the PA to agree with the suspension happened.
I agree with you and ElUno. This wasn't just for optics. Draymond must have crossed a line. I know that will come as a shock to his detractors too.

The thing is, he comes off as a pretty thoughtful guy off the court - he is just a total dick on the court. I know some people cannot stand that but I feel as someone who considers KG one of their favorite athletes of all time I would be a complete hypocrite not to recognize some of the same qualities in Green.

Finally, I can see KD going to the Knicks but he has never played in a city like that before. If he thinks the media scrutiny of him joining the Warriors was bad, just wait until the Knicks lose a playoff series with him. I love his game but I wonder how he would have done had he joined the Celtics. Boston and New York fans and media are the worst in terms of eating their own right now. I would have put Philadelphia in that category too but, truth be told, they have treated the Fultz situation far better than it would have been handled in the other two cities. Imagine if Danny took Fultz two years ago...sheesh...
 

Sam Ray Not

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I don't know what happened after the game but I'm pretty certain "something" severe enough for the PA to agree with the suspension happened.
The scuttlebutt is that he called KD a "bitch" and confronted him about his impending free agency.

Fortunately, we now have Boogie to smooth things over. :)
 

ElUno20

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The scuttlebutt is that he called KD a "bitch" and confronted him about his impending free agency.

Fortunately, we now have Boogie to smooth things over. :)
Ouch. Damn. If that's true, they're going to need a counselor on the team plane. It's only November.

Durant has shown how insecure he can be and how he bookmarks every little transgression against him. And that's the small stuff. This is pretty big in comparison to some random twitter beef. I can't imagine he'll be cool with this.
 

jon abbey

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I disagree about what the pressure on Durant on the Knicks would be like, that is such a starved fan base for success currently besides the Yankees (and even they have not won it all since 2009, as if you all aren't well aware) and the Knicks specifically (he types as a Knicks fan since 1979 who has never seen them win a title). The bar would be so low for an even possibly slightly aging Durant, the downside he is someone else who tried and failed but at least he tried, the upside is he is a god in NYC for the rest of his life. The bar to be the best Knick ever, at any position, is not that high, probably Ewing or Clyde Frazier. Durant could easily top that peak level for a few years and if Porzingis is healthy, that is a freaky long best two guys, good luck matching up there. Dolan does not deserve to ever win a title, but Knicks fans really do.

Durant should publicly announce he will happily sign with NY if Dolan will agree to sell the team to a Jay-Z led group of New Yorkers, I wonder how that would play out? Either it would work or Dolan would be like fifty times more hated (a big number already), save us Kevin.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Wouldn't Dallas be a pretty good landing spot for Durant too? They'll have DSJ, Doncic, and tons of cap space. Literally the only other guy under contract for next year besides those 2 is Jalen Brunson. That's about $14 mil in guaranteed contracts.

edit: nevermind. Those were player options. They have about $50 mil.
 

Sam Ray Not

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I disagree about what the pressure on Durant on the Knicks would be like, that is such a starved fan base for success currently besides the Yankees (and even they have not won it all since 2009, as if you all aren't well aware) and the Knicks specifically (he types as a Knicks fan since 1979 who has never seen them win a title). The bar would be so low for an even possibly slightly aging Durant, the downside he is someone else who tried and failed but at least he tried, the upside is he is a god in NYC for the rest of his life. The bar to be the best Knick ever, at any position, is not that high, probably Ewing or Clyde Frazier. Durant could easily top that peak level for a few years and if Porzingis is healthy, that is a freaky long best two guys, good luck matching up there. Dolan does not deserve to ever win a title, but Knicks fans really do.

Durant should publicly announce he will happily sign with NY if Dolan will agree to sell the team to a Jay-Z led group of New Yorkers, I wonder how that would play out? Either it would work or Dolan would be like fifty times more hated (a big number already), save us Kevin.
Good call: from I can glean from my friend who occasionally chats with Rich Kleiman (KD's longtime agent and a huge Knick fan), Dolan would be by far the biggest sticking point with KD-to-NY. IIRC, Kleiman said KD thinks of Dolan as a "hapless moron." ;-P

As far as the "incident": KD and Draymond have had their dust-ups before and come through them fine, so I kinda doubt this one has any effect one way or the other six months from now, but who knows. KD about to come out for the post-game presser and you know all the questions will be Draymond-related, so break out the body-language experts and between-the-lines readers...

(OT: it's 1 am, happy birthday, me and Curt Schilling!)
 
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Sam Ray Not

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Presser update: KD says he and Draymond haven't talked since the incident, and he still looks kinda pissed, so some shit obviously went down. He also deflected and looked pissed when they asked if he and Draymond were friends. At the same time, he said they'll probably work things out.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Presser update: KD says he and Draymond haven't talked since the incident, and he still looks kinda pissed, so some shit obviously went down. He also deflected and looked pissed when they asked if he and Draymond were friends. At the same time, he said they'll probably work things out.
Yeah, that was a weird press conference. Lots of one or two word replies.
 

Apisith

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Where is this coming from? I know Draymond has said that he took a paycut to make sure they could bring Durant in. So what if Durant wants to leave now or wants a max deal? Does Draymond think it’s going to be Durant + Thompson that the Warriors max and he gets let go? Is he expecting KD to leave money on the table so he can get a max?