2018 Gronk Watch

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Otis Foster

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Florio is seriously pissed, makes it clear that he'll never rely on anything reported on WEEI in the future.

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Marciano490

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Florio is seriously pissed, makes it clear that he'll never rely on anything reported on WEEI in the future.

Welcome to the club. Membership meeting will be held in Michigan Stadium. Apply early, seating is limited.
Eh, it’s kind of his fault. You can’t just repackage a tweet into a story without doing any digging or verification yourself.
 

Van Everyman

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Meanwhile, I nice piece from Finn about this:
Save for Red Auerbach, I trust Belichick more than any other coach or executive in sports history. But he has done some bewildering stuff lately – trading Garoppolo for a mere second-round pick, turning Malcolm Butler into a bystander in the Super Bowl. He’s right while going against conventional wisdom a staggering number of times.

But he’s not always right, and the wise choice here is also the obvious one. Hopefully he knows it. Maybe the drama lingers, maybe it fades, but no matter what, Gronkowski belongs on this team. Unless Belichick gets the proverbial offer-he-can’-t-refuse — start with a match of the Cowboys’ haul in the Herschel Walker trade and demand a few sweeteners from there — he had better remain on this team.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2018/04/03/patriots-should-find-way-keep-rob-gronkowski-happy/r7LOzTZ8QWt4aPyjn5DDzK/story.html
 

Jimbodandy

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Otis Foster

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Eh, it’s kind of his fault. You can’t just repackage a tweet into a story without doing any digging or verification yourself.
Undoubtedly the professional embarrassment factor amped up the vitriol of Florio's response.
 

TheoShmeo

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The Walker trade was of course obscene.

I had to refresh on the level and it’s in here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_trade

And yes, if the Pats got offered that level of a package, they would have to accept. That is, unless doing so would lead Tom to demand a trade or his release lest he retired. Then they’d have to think long and hard and I hope they would say no.

Said differently, Bill better well know how the QB he didn’t trade away last season will react before he pulls the trigger, even on a deal as rich as the Walker haul.

Assuming that aspect could be managed, Bill would be crazy not to do a deal of that magnitude, and would be crazy to demand a sweetener. Finn was probably exaggerating or using some poetic license.

My hope is that no one offers the Pats anything that might make Bill think twice and he keeps Gronk. I mean, yeah, I’d love a massive overpay a la Walker but I don’t think that’s coming, and life is a lot more fun with Gronk on the team I root for. Not to mention that he’s really good.

That they got their last SB win without him is comforting but then again, even a hurt Martellus Bennet is a threat and a better weapon than many, if not most, teams have at TE. No one they have on their current roster comes close.

That all of this remains an issue kind of sucks.
 

Curt S Loew

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The Walker trade was of course obscene.

I had to refresh on the level and it’s in here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_trade

And yes, if the Pats got offered that level of a package, they would have to accept. That is, unless doing so would lead Tom to demand a trade or his release lest he retired. Then they’d have to think long and hard and I hope they would say no.
Sorry, but a deal like that would be what it would take to lose both Gronk AND Brady. You could totally rebuild the franchise. I wouldn't think long and hard. I'd do it before they changed their mind.
 

TheoShmeo

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Sorry, but a deal like that would be what it would take to lose both Gronk AND Brady. You could totally rebuild the franchise. I wouldn't think long and hard. I'd do it before they changed their mind.
I’m of the view that Tom is an elite QB, will be one for the next two seasons and Nick Foles notwithstanding, winning a SB is a lot harder without one. I’d rather not find out if Bill can find another one until 2020 or so.

I understand well your point but just don’t want to see them lose Tom Brady earlier than that in the absence of Jimmy G or someone of equal promise in the fold.
 

Curt S Loew

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I’m of the view that Tom is an elite QB, will be one for the next two seasons and Nick Foles notwithstanding, winning a SB is a lot harder without one. I’d rather not find out if Bill can find another one until 2020 or so.

I understand well your point but just don’t want to see them lose Tom Brady earlier than that in the absence of Jimmy G or someone of equal promise in the fold.
I get it. I guess I am willing to take a few down years for another (epic)run. We need a break anyway. All this winning......
 

TheoShmeo

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I get it. I guess I am willing to take a few down years for another (epic)run. We need a break anyway. All this winning......
If I knew he’d come up with another elite QB, I’d trade those years too, probably. Especially with Tom now sounding like the end is nearer and not having restructured his deal.
 

Curt S Loew

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If I knew he’d come up with another elite QB, I’d trade those years too, probably. Especially with Tom now sounding like the end is nearer and not having restructured his deal.
Yeah, well that's where I'm coming from. You can't know you'd come up with another elite QB and you're certainly not going to get another Brady(we all know where he was picked), but that trade would give you a hell of a chance and would be just to good to pass up. Ain't happenin tho, so we'll just have to find another in the 6th round.
 

djbayko

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Eh, it’s kind of his fault. You can’t just repackage a tweet into a story without doing any digging or verification yourself.
Exactly right. This prank highlights what is wrong with "journalism" today. I welcome more occurrences like this. Maybe reporters will actually start doing their jobs.
 
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Jesus Christ, I wish Belichick would pump the brakes on his Guerrero schtick. I get the conflicts with the training staff, and the need for clarity and a chain of command, but just shut the fuck up and find a middle ground, and let these players get the treatment they're comfortable with free of the old school grumpiness and my-way-or-the-highway B.S.

Yes, I know it's more nuanced than this, and yes, he TRIED to make this work and now believes it does not work, but for the love of Mike, just go back and try again, work it out with Gronk and Brady and get the hell over yourself.

P.S. Thanks for the five rings.
 

Leather

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These comments were made in August. And if Gronk was, in fact, out of shape, I’m not sure why it’s on B.B. to spare Guerrero’s (not a team employee) feelings.

If B.B. legitimately thinks AG’a a quack, or not a good influence on his team, what is he supposed to do?
 

BaseballJones

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This kind of thing is what I was referring to earlier in the thread when I said that BB is in a really tough spot here. The two posts directly preceding this highlight how hard it must be to handle this in a satisfactory manner.
 

tims4wins

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Yeah if Gronk was playing like shit during camp - which seems to be the case, although I don't recall anyone reporting on it at the time - then I could see him making a snide remark about it
 

Van Everyman

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Having watched Belichick on film for years riding his players on the field and while watching film, are we really to believe this was anything that out of the ordinary? I mean, i guess it’s possible he was really a dick about things but I’m imagining something more like, “And that includes you, Gronkowski. I don’t know what the hell you were doing on that play. I thought your new training regimen was supposed to take care of this kinda thing.” Which I imagine is the kind of comment Gronk heard from BB a few dozen times in his Patriots career.

Between this story and the “Patriot of the Week” thing Wickersham reported, I’m having a really hard time understanding what is going on with this team.
 

Dotrat

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Yeah if Gronk was playing like shit during camp - which seems to be the case, although I don't recall anyone reporting on it at the time - then I could see him making a snide remark about it
I’ll look for the links, but Greg Bedard wrote quite a bit about how easily he was being tossed aside by the defense throughout much of camp.
 

tims4wins

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I’ll look for the links, but Greg Bedard wrote quite a bit about how easily he was being tossed aside by the defense throughout much of camp.
Thanks. Curran keeps saying Gronk was bad during camp but I don't recall Curran actually writing that last July / August
 

Ralphwiggum

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Guerero is a quack, or he would be if he were an actual doctor, a snake oil salesman and a conman.

That Bill allowed him around the team for as long as he did is the only surprise.
Leaving aside the legitimacy of Guerrero's methods, he has a relationship with the franchise QB that goes a little beyond the typical trainer - athlete relationship. And we know, rightly or wrongly, Brady credits Guerrero's methods in part for being able to play at an MVP level into his 40s. Whether he wants to or not, Belichick can't keep Brady from talking to other players about Guerrero's methods and he can't keep other players from seeing Guerrero in their own time, in Guerrero's (and Brady's) facility in Patriot Place next to the stadium and the practice facility. So it's not quite as simple as "the dude's a quack and BB shouldn't allow him around the team."
 

dcmissle

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A decent educated guess on this one is that Gronk did not hit the weight room per Guerrero, got thrown around like a rag doll, and B.B. got pissed.

This will get worked out in due course. When TB steps away, Guerrero will be out of there entirely the next day
 

DJnVa

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Jesus Christ, I wish Belichick would pump the brakes on his Guerrero schtick. I get the conflicts with the training staff, and the need for clarity and a chain of command, but just shut the fuck up and find a middle ground, and let these players get the treatment they're comfortable with free of the old school grumpiness and my-way-or-the-highway B.S.

Yes, I know it's more nuanced than this, and yes, he TRIED to make this work and now believes it does not work, but for the love of Mike, just go back and try again, work it out with Gronk and Brady and get the hell over yourself.

P.S. Thanks for the five rings.
If this said the opposite of everything it actually said I’d agree with it 100%.
 

DJnVa

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Having watched Belichick on film for years riding his players on the field and while watching film, are we really to believe this was anything that out of the ordinary? I mean, i guess it’s possible he was really a dick about things but I’m imagining something more like, “And that includes you, Gronkowski. I don’t know what the hell you were doing on that play. I thought your new training regimen was supposed to take care of this kinda thing.” Which I imagine is the kind of comment Gronk heard from BB a few dozen times in his Patriots career.

Between this story and the “Patriot of the Week” thing Wickersham reported, I’m having a really hard time understanding what is going on with this team.

If you think this is nothing out of the ordinary and the type of thing he’s heard before, why would it make it hard to understand what’s happening? You just said you think it’s nothing new.
 

Harry Hooper

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Thanks. Curran keeps saying Gronk was bad during camp but I don't recall Curran actually writing that last July / August
Too many tweets and tv segments by Curran these days and not enough written articles for my taste.
 

Marciano490

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A decent educated guess on this one is that Gronk did not hit the weight room per Guerrero, got thrown around like a rag doll, and B.B. got pissed.

This will get worked out in due course. When TB steps away, Guerrero will be out of there entirely the next day
There’d be little to no way he could regain strength though during the season. That doesn’t make much sense.
 

Reverend

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There’d be little to no way he could regain strength though during the season. That doesn’t make much sense.
I dunno, I think there may be something here, just not fully fleshed out in the reporting--and I was wondering what you in particular thought of this "take":

Like, it has to be lifting or diet if there's a "thing" about this friction, right? Bill doesn't a give a shit if his players spend extra time stretching, getting rubbed down three times a day with sake, wear magic bedclothes and get extra sleep every night.

Belichick does, though, have his best player walking around telling the other guys that lifting is for suckers.

That's got to be a complication for the coach, yeah? And lifting and diet seem like such core issues for strength culture, so to speak--could Gronk be caught between his QB and his coach? That seems like exactly the kind of culture conflict you'd want to avoid, as it gets kinda zero sum. If Gronk took shit for a life decision in following his QB--and if he took crap from the guys for going TB12--that could rub him differently than just getting ribbed for blowing an assignment or something.

In terms of team culture, hierarchies, leadership, I can actually see how this kind of divided loyalty shit could become a problem... and nobody could pull that shit besides Brady, of course.

Thoughts?

[Disclosure: I want to make babies with Tom Brady.]
 

Marciano490

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I dunno, I think there may be something here, just not fully fleshed out in the reporting--and I was wondering what you in particular thought of this "take":

Like, it has to be lifting or diet if there's a "thing" about this friction, right? Bill doesn't a give a shit if his players spend extra time stretching, getting rubbed down three times a day with sake, wear magic bedclothes and get extra sleep every night.

Belichick does, though, have his best player walking around telling the other guys that lifting is for suckers.

That's got to be a complication for the coach, yeah? And lifting and diet seem like such core issues for strength culture, so to speak--could Gronk be caught between his QB and his coach? That seems like exactly the kind of culture conflict you'd want to avoid, as it gets kinda zero sum. If Gronk took shit for a life decision in following his QB--and if he took crap from the guys for going TB12--that could rub him differently than just getting ribbed for blowing an assignment or something.

In terms of team culture, hierarchies, leadership, I can actually see how this kind of divided loyalty shit could become a problem... and nobody could pull that shit besides Brady, of course.

Thoughts?

[Disclosure: I want to make babies with Tom Brady.]
I could see it being something like that. I don’t know too much about Guerrero’s methodology, but I can’t imagine any modern guru forsaking weightlifting altogether.

There is a lot of friction in the strength and conditioning community about what type of weight training is best. Personally, for a dude like Gronk, I’d never have him squat or deadlift because the marginal benefit of those exercises over safer alternatives is so minimal, but I’ve definitely seen pro football players max squat and use bands and chains and other compensatory acceleration tools.
 

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I could see it being something like that. I don’t know too much about Guerrero’s methodology, but I can’t imagine any modern guru forsaking weightlifting altogether.

There is a lot of friction in the strength and conditioning community about what type of weight training is best. Personally, for a dude like Gronk, I’d never have him squat or deadlift because the marginal benefit of those exercises over safer alternatives is so minimal, but I’ve definitely seen pro football players max squat and use bands and chains and other compensatory acceleration tools.
Apparently the pats do a lot of heavy lifts in season and always have (Jerod Mayo talks about this on the ex pats podcast). So if Gronk is saying he doesn't want to squat per Guerrero's advice--as apparently an unnamed non Brady pats player did this season- you could see BB disliking it from both a philosophical perspective and from a discipline/everyone must do their job/nobody is too big for the rules perspective.
 

Reverend

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I could see it being something like that. I don’t know too much about Guerrero’s methodology, but I can’t imagine any modern guru forsaking weightlifting altogether.

There is a lot of friction in the strength and conditioning community about what type of weight training is best. Personally, for a dude like Gronk, I’d never have him squat or deadlift because the marginal benefit of those exercises over safer alternatives is so minimal, but I’ve definitely seen pro football players max squat and use bands and chains and other compensatory acceleration tools.
In one of the Tom v. Time episodes (5 of 6?), they kinda go out of their way to have the debate between Brady and Edelman with respect to lifting weights, with Brady taking the stance that it's just for vanity muscles and Edelman arguing that there needs to be the basic basis at least, or something.

I don't want to elaborate and get it wrong, but it's pretty intentionally in there, and it did seem like Tom was preaching no lifting, but that could just be my misunderstanding.
 

Reverend

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Apparently the pats do a lot of heavy lifts in season and always have (Jerod Mayo talks about this on the ex pats podcast). So if Gronk is saying he doesn't want to squat per Guerrero's advice--as apparently an unnamed non Brady pats player did this season- you could see BB disliking it from both a philosophical perspective and from a discipline/everyone must do their job/nobody is too big for the rules perspective.
Ah. Another data point!

So, yeah, that. Exactly that.

It could also be that while someone CAN maintain strength without the lifts, it's not clear everyone will follow the infinitely detailed regiment that Tom does.
 

Marciano490

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There are many different types of “strength” and part of the debate is what’s needed for different players at different positions. A one or 3 rep max usually involves a lot of “grinding”. That may not be useful for most players who need to be repeatedly explosive. On the other hand, there’s a school of thought that building up limit strength spills over to help athletes with endurance and starting strength. Etc.

As much as you’d like to think that the difference between a 450 and 500 pound squat might not be worth the injury risk or CNS strain, maybe it helps KVN not be pushed into the end zone or Bademosi stick his tackle.

However, maybe them not wrecking their bodies with heavy lifts would’ve allowed them to better focus on technique.
 

Van Everyman

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If you think this is nothing out of the ordinary and the type of thing he’s heard before, why would it make it hard to understand what’s happening? You just said you think it’s nothing new.
Because (some) players are (reportedly) deeply upset about this. That's what's new.
 

Reverend

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There are many different types of “strength” and part of the debate is what’s needed for different players at different positions. A one or 3 rep max usually involves a lot of “grinding”. That may not be useful for most players who need to be repeatedly explosive. On the other hand, there’s a school of thought that building up limit strength spills over to help athletes with endurance and starting strength. Etc.

As much as you’d like to think that the difference between a 450 and 500 pound squat might not be worth the injury risk or CNS strain, maybe it helps KVN not be pushed into the end zone or Bademosi stick his tackle.

However, maybe them not wrecking their bodies with heavy lifts would’ve allowed them to better focus on technique.
Word. But I'm not talking so much about which is right--or, for that matter, right for a specific person who is also a genetic outlier--but what happens if a major guy gets whipsawed between his leaders.

Like, criticism over this would be about his life and training choices, which are more fundamental to who he is as an athlete than, say, losing form on a block once. So they could grate him differently than usual criticism. Which is why you'd want to try to prevent such situations from coming up in the first place...
 

Marciano490

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Word. But I'm not talking so much about which is right--or, for that matter, right for a specific person who is also a genetic outlier--but what happens if a major guy gets whipsawed between his leaders.

Like, criticism over this would be about his life and training choices, which are more fundamental to who he is as an athlete than, say, losing form on a block once. So they could grate him differently than usual criticism. Which is why you'd want to try to prevent such situations from coming up in the first place...
Well... yes and no. At this point these guys know their bodies pretty well, and I’d think training and diet is pretty differentiated at the pro level.

I can’t imagine Gronk saying he doesn’t want to squat heavy because it hurts his back and him being forced to. If we’re talking about wholesale departures from the routine, that might make sense, but athletes have been permitted to go vegetarian before, no?
 

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There are many different types of “strength” and part of the debate is what’s needed for different players at different positions. A one or 3 rep max usually involves a lot of “grinding”. That may not be useful for most players who need to be repeatedly explosive. On the other hand, there’s a school of thought that building up limit strength spills over to help athletes with endurance and starting strength. Etc.

As much as you’d like to think that the difference between a 450 and 500 pound squat might not be worth the injury risk or CNS strain, maybe it helps KVN not be pushed into the end zone or Bademosi stick his tackle.

However, maybe them not wrecking their bodies with heavy lifts would’ve allowed them to better focus on technique.
A lot of folks think that DLs take as much as they give. But you can do a lot of squats without getting CNS fatigue, if you know how to manage it. And I'm sure it's not all low reps. It must be a mix of heavies and lighter ones, probably with a shitload of 50% power cleans and other stuff. And it certainly varies by position. Some guys apparently benefit from some hypertrophy here and there, while a DT is looking for top end, etc.

I get why a 40yo Brady isn't interested in squats now. It'd largely be a waste of his time, and flexibility shit is probably 10000 times more useful. With Gronk, it's debatable. Maybe a faster Gronk gives you more in the open field than the weaker Gronk takes away. Where the problem arises is when the "stop squatting" movement starts to take hold in a locker room with 24yo linebackers and safeties who need to bigger, faster, and more explosive. If I'm Belichick, I lose my shit too.
 

RedOctober3829

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From Karen Guregian:
Rob Gronkowski will not be on hand for the start of the team’s offseason program, according to a source.

The Patriots tight end is still weighing his options and contemplating his future. Even though he has been working out at TB12, and getting his body in shape, Gronkowski still has yet to fully commit to playing the 2018 season.

The source, however, indicated there has been communication with the Patriots and Gronkowski’s camp recently. Some of the discussions have been focused on Gronk’s contract. The Pro Bowl tight end has two years and $17 million remaining on his contract. Last year, the Patriots restructured Gronk's contract, allowing him to be paid as one of the highest tight ends in the league if he hit certain incentives, which he did. The final two years, however, weren't touched.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots/the_blitz/2018/04/rob_gronkowski_wont_be_on_hand_for_start_of_patriots_offseason
 

koufax32

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Normally I’m 100% on the side of the players in the “get as much as you can in the time you have” camp, but dicking around with the “will I or won’t I?” thing rubs me the wrong way. When putting all the stories together it seems like this has very little to do with his health going forward and mostly about his contract. IF that is a correct read (notice the big if) then I don’t really have much sympathy for him. If he just said something like “player salaries have grown so significantly that I feel my non-guaranteed contract no longer represents what I think I bring to the table.” I’m sure this has been communicated privately but to hear that publicly instead of the retirement song and dance would be nice.
 

BigSoxFan

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I feel like we're building toward a Gronk trade now.
I’m mentally preparing myself but at least it would be better than him retiring and the Pats getting nothing but cap relief. My hunch is that if Belichick can get a first and Gronk decides to play, he’s gone. If the the return is a 2/3, simply not worth it.

Possible options for trade:

Saints: #27 pick with an aging QB that needs to win now and a strong offense and a trading history with the Pats. Brees/Thomas/Gronk/Ingram/Kamara? Would be insanely good.

Falcons: #26 pick with a team ready to win now and a need to take some pressure off of Julio in passing game. Seeing Gronk and Julio on same team would be insane. Safeties wouldn’t get much sleep that week.

Lions: #20 pick with old friend Matty P and big need at TE. Does he try to make a splash right away? Give me 2-3 years of prime Gronk over an unproven rookie. Stafford just turned 30.
 
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