2017 Seahawks: Wilson the Magician

[DanoooME]

Understood. I just wonder how much talent the offense has besides Wilson and Baldwin. Some of the RBs have flashed for a stretch, but there hasn't been anyone consistently good and durable. The line has had issues, and while you'd think they'd get more out of Graham and Richardson, it never was an offense that seemed loaded, especially without the defense setting them up with great field position.

I know you've hated Bevell's play calling for awhile, so that's consistent, but if this team is healthy next year and has a good draft, are they not an 11-5 team and playoff contender? And I only say 11-5 because of the Rams and Jimmy G.

Yeah, this team can be a contender if healthy, but they've been decent on offense despite their OC. They are consistently poor on offense in the first half, yet they are still the best offense in the NFL in the 4th quarter. They script the initial plays. How can this happen except for the fact that the OC can't come up with a decent game plan?

The OL has been a big problem for years, despite the fact that Seattle has thrown an above average amount of draft capital at it. That falls at the feet of Tom Cable. For all his alleged genius as a OL whisperer, his lines have come up woefully short in any measurement. He's also in charge of the overall run game approach and his approach this year is to give all the guys a handful of chances and expect them to play well. The only one he committed to was Carson and he got hurt in week 4. Without consistent work, these guys aren't going to get into any kind of a rhythm.

I think the offensive talent is there. Kyle Shanahan would do wonders with this offense. I'd even take Norv Turner at this point. The OL needs a new coach and a new approach. Germain Ifedi is the main symptom of this team; completely undisciplined, and underachieving despite immense potential. He can't even blame injuries like the defense. New coaching would give him a decent chance to improve. As it is, he's a total bust. And it's pretty clear Cable can't turn him around and Pete's overall approach isn't helping him. If Pete can't/won't replace the coaches, this team will not get better.

 

[DanoooME]

Are we sure Schneider's good? The Harvin trade was a disaster. The Jimmy Graham trade isn't looking much better. The drafting has fallen off after Scot McCloughan left. Alex Collins looks good in Baltimore and they've struggled at RB all year. It's hard to know where the coaching staff ends and the the front office begins on some of the moves, particularly at OL and DB, but I don't think they've covered themselves in glory from the personnel side. Part of it, too, is the copycat league has caught up to the market inefficiencies they found in terms of long corners and Combine SPARQ freaks.

Overall, I think his trade resume is good. His wheeling and dealing in the draft has added a lot of draft pick capital to the team, which can't be understated.

Harvin trade, have to agree.
Graham trade, mostly a push at this point. Graham has come around, and I think a lot of the problem is the coaching staff.
He traded DE Darryl Tapp for DE Chris Clemons, who got them a bunch of sacks and has to be considered a big win.
He traded 2 mid round picks for Marshawn Lynch.
He dumped Deion Branch back on the Pats for a mid-round pick.
He traded CB Kelly Jennings for DT Clinton McDonald, who was a key piece of the DL on the SBXLVIII team
He suckered the Raiders into taking bust top-5 LB pick Aaron Curry for 2 later round picks
And the jury is still out on the Duane Brown and Shelton Richardson deals

The drafting has not been as good since the 2011-12 drafts, but there's still plenty of productive players picked:

2013 - TE Luke Willson the only one left on the team, but RB Spencer Ware is still kicking around the league
2014 - Richardson and C Justin Britt are starters, you guys know about Marsh (now on the Niners), LB Kevin Pierre-Louis was traded to KC for ST DJ Alexander
2015 - DE Frank Clark and WR Tyler Lockett are key contributors and G Mark Glowinski just got picked up by the Colts after the Hawks cut him for cap space
2016 - Ifedi is a bust at this point, DT Jarran Reed is a key run stuffer; Prosise, Vannett, Odhiambo, and Quinton Jackson are all still on the team, RB Alex Collins went to Baltimore to thrive
2017 - G Ethan Pocic, CB Shaq Griffin, DT Naz Jones, Carson before his injury all okay to good contributors.

At worst, he's above average, and is likely top 10, maybe top 5. Look at a lot of the shitty GMs around. They could do a hell of a lot worse.

 

[Super Nomario]

Overall, I think his trade resume is good. His wheeling and dealing in the draft has added a lot of draft pick capital to the team, which can't be understated.

Has it? They've traded away a bunch of firsts. Ifedi is their only first rounder in the last five drafts. In some drafts they've had a lot of picks, but they haven't been hitting on the late-rounders like they did early in Schneider's tenure.

Harvin trade, have to agree.
Graham trade, mostly a push at this point. Graham has come around, and I think a lot of the problem is the coaching staff.
He traded DE Darryl Tapp for DE Chris Clemons, who got them a bunch of sacks and has to be considered a big win.
He traded 2 mid round picks for Marshawn Lynch.
He dumped Deion Branch back on the Pats for a mid-round pick.
He traded CB Kelly Jennings for DT Clinton McDonald, who was a key piece of the DL on the SBXLVIII team
He suckered the Raiders into taking bust top-5 LB pick Aaron Curry for 2 later round picks
And the jury is still out on the Duane Brown and Shelton Richardson deals

Some of these trades are small potatoes (Curry, Branch) and a lot were very early in their tenure. I guess it's fair to say that in addition to identifying draft picks who would be a good fit, they did a nice job identifying veterans like Clemons, Lynch, and McDonald who were underutilized elsewhere (Michael Bennett, Cliff Avril, and Brandon Browner were also great pickups relatively cheap). They haven't done as well with that lately, and acquisitions like Joeckel (and his baffling $8 MM contract), Blair Walsh, and Eddie Lacy are killing them this year.

In addition to the first, they also gave up Unger in the trade for Graham. I agree the coaching staff hasn't known how to use Graham, but he was kind of a mystifying fit in Seattle in the first place. A team whose identity is running the ball picks up a finesse TE and then watches his numbers plummet as he moves from one of the most pass-happy offenses to one of the least? It never made a lot of sense to me.

2015 - DE Frank Clark and WR Tyler Lockett are key contributors and G Mark Glowinski just got picked up by the Colts after the Hawks cut him for cap space

You don't cut third-year players for cap space. He was demoted to fourth-string on a bad OL.

At worst, he's above average, and is likely top 10, maybe top 5. Look at a lot of the shitty GMs around. They could do a hell of a lot worse.

You could argue the same for Carroll, no?

 

[tims4wins]

I wrote this in the TB vs JG thread:

Speaking of rookie contracts, it has also been interesting that Seattle now seems to be in a freefall with Wilson's contract having expired a couple years ago. I consistently said during his first few years that when they had to pay him $20M+ instead of $500K it would totally change the dynamic of the team - and it did in both cases. Topic for a different thread, of course. At least Seattle got a title and an NFC title out of that run.

Question to Hawks fans: do you think Schneider's record as a GM looks better because of how he was able to assemble the team on Wilson's rookie deal, and now that they are paying him (and others) and have to spread the wealth more, that has led to the decline?

 

[DanoooME]

They haven't done as well with that lately, and acquisitions like Joeckel (and his baffling $8 MM contract), Blair Walsh, and Eddie Lacy are killing them this year.

You could argue the same for Carroll, no?

Blair Walsh was a cheap gamble that didn't work out great. Joeckel was a head scratcher from the beginning. Lacy didn't make much sense, but at least they built weight clauses in and per-game bonuses. Then they keep him active and give him zero carries. Save the money and make him inactive if you don't believe. Especially with the cap constraints.

Carroll is arguably a top 5 coach. The problem is he has a bottom 5 staff. That's on him. If he replaces a good chunk of the staff, I'd have no problem with him staying. But if he keeps the staff intact, things are only going to get worse. The discipline issues are killing the team. He needs to find a way to fix that. New coaches may help. But he may need to go if there aren't changes. The injury excuses can apply to the defense, but not the offense.

 

[DanoooME]

I wrote this in the TB vs JG thread:

Speaking of rookie contracts, it has also been interesting that Seattle now seems to be in a freefall with Wilson's contract having expired a couple years ago. I consistently said during his first few years that when they had to pay him $20M+ instead of $500K it would totally change the dynamic of the team - and it did in both cases. Topic for a different thread, of course. At least Seattle got a title and an NFC title out of that run.

Question to Hawks fans: do you think Schneider's record as a GM looks better because of how he was able to assemble the team on Wilson's rookie deal, and now that they are paying him (and others) and have to spread the wealth more, that has led to the decline?

That's going to be true for any underpaid QB. How much worse would the Pats have looked over the past few years if they didn't pay Tom Brady $10 million below market value? He's doled out big money to the key guys on the team. The rest of the team has been mostly filled in around them. The "stars and scrubs" approach works only as long as the stars stay healthy and they identify talent in the draft. The draft has been mixed and the key guys haven't been healthy. They need to stop wasting mid-level money on guys like Joeckel and Lacy.

 

[Super Nomario]

That's going to be true for any underpaid QB. How much worse would the Pats have looked over the past few years if they didn't pay Tom Brady $10 million below market value? He's doled out big money to the key guys on the team. The rest of the team has been mostly filled in around them. The "stars and scrubs" approach works only as long as the stars stay healthy and they identify talent in the draft. The draft has been mixed and the key guys haven't been healthy. They need to stop wasting mid-level money on guys like Joeckel and Lacy.

The trades for Harvin and Graham accelerated the stars-and-scrubbiness of the team, because in addition to costing first-round picks, those guys cost money. Then they paid all the defensive stars and let the OL walk. It's crazy to think their whole 2013 OL - Okung, Carpenter, Unger, Sweezy, Giacomini - is still starting around the league.

 

[tims4wins]

That's going to be true for any underpaid QB. How much worse would the Pats have looked over the past few years if they didn't pay Tom Brady $10 million below market value? He's doled out big money to the key guys on the team. The rest of the team has been mostly filled in around them. The "stars and scrubs" approach works only as long as the stars stay healthy and they identify talent in the draft. The draft has been mixed and the key guys haven't been healthy. They need to stop wasting mid-level money on guys like Joeckel and Lacy.

It's true for any underpaid QB that it changes the dynamic of roster construction once that QB gets paid, but it it hasn't prevented the Steelers or GB other teams with top QBs from being annual contenders. Not that the Hawks aren't, they have been hurt by injuries. It is just very odd to be reading blow it up talk for a team that from 2012-2016 went divisional loss, Super Bowl win, Super Bowl loss, divisional loss, divisional loss, and is contending for a WC spot again this year.

 

[DanoooME]

It's true for any underpaid QB that it changes the dynamic of roster construction once that QB gets paid, but it it hasn't prevented the Steelers or GB other teams with top QBs from being annual contenders. Not that the Hawks aren't, they have been hurt by injuries. It is just very odd to be reading blow it up talk for a team that from 2012-2016 went divisional loss, Super Bowl win, Super Bowl loss, divisional loss, divisional loss, and is contending for a WC spot again this year.

I'm not saying blow it up. The roster is fine, they need to fine tune the coaching staff because they are clearly the big issue with the shitty penalties and overall discipline issues, as well as the bad offense and special teams.

 

[Bowhemian]

Carroll is arguably a top 5 coach. The problem is he has a bottom 5 staff. That's on him. If he replaces a good chunk of the staff, I'd have no problem with him staying. But if he keeps the staff intact, things are only going to get worse. The discipline issues are killing the team. He needs to find a way to fix that. New coaches may help. But he may need to go if there aren't changes. The injury excuses can apply to the defense, but not the offense.

I don't see how you can call Carroll a top 5 coach, when it is arguably his coaching style that causes, or at least doesn't fix the discipline issues. It seems as though the discipline issues are with him wherever he coaches.

 

[ThePrideofShiner]

The discipline issues didn't cause half the defense to get hurt. Who knows where this team is with Sherman, Avril and Chancellor all season. Or even just a healthy Bobby Wagner the last few weeks.

Plus, Seattle is a good kicker away from being 10-4 right now.

Seattle doesn't need to blow anything up and Carroll isn't the problem, though the fact that this board is enjoying the chance to shit all over Pete is no surprise.

 

[ThePrideofShiner]

Oh.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

This was an easy money line bet for me. The Hawks are way better than they're being given credit for (and it seemed like the kind of game that the Boys would cough up at home.)

 

[DanoooME]

I don't see how you can call Carroll a top 5 coach, when it is arguably his coaching style that causes, or at least doesn't fix the discipline issues. It seems as though the discipline issues are with him wherever he coaches.

Name 5 coaches better than him. Go.

And they stay alive. Now it comes down to beating Arizona at home and having Carolina beat Atlanta. Can it happen? Sure. Will it happen? Let's just say I already hate Cam Newton with the energy of 1,000 suns and next Sunday will take it to a new level.

 

[Bowhemian]

Name 5 coaches better than him. Go.

And they stay alive. Now it comes down to beating Arizona at home and having Carolina beat Atlanta. Can it happen? Sure. Will it happen? Let's just say I already hate Cam Newton with the energy of 1,000 suns and next Sunday will take it to a new level.

I think that depends on how one would define a top 5 coach. Top 5 by wins?
Nevermind, it doesn't really matter for the sake of the Seahawks thread. Sorry for going a little OT.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Good news for the resident Seahawks fans here. Bevell fired as OC.

 

[DanoooME]

HALLELUJAH!!!

Now it's Cable's turn to go.

 

[ThePrideofShiner]

Defensive Coordinator Kris Richard and QB coach Carl Smith also out.

Biggest shakeup in awhile.

 

[DanoooME]

Richard is a little bit of a surprise. But I'm open to the return of Gus Bradley. I'd be even more open to the return of Dan Quinn to eventually replace Pete, but understand that won't happen right away.

Something needed to happen. If they need to keep cleaning people out, then do it.

 

[tims4wins]

Richard is a little bit of a surprise. But I'm open to the return of Gus Bradley. I'd be even more open to the return of Dan Quinn to eventually replace Pete, but understand that won't happen right away.

Something needed to happen. If they need to keep cleaning people out, then do it.

Bradley is staying in SD

Err I mean LAC

 

[DanoooME]

Bradley is staying in SD

Err I mean LAC

Well, ain't that a pissah!

 

[tims4wins]

HALLELUJAH!!!

Now it's Cable's turn to go.

Adam Schefter‏Verified account @AdamSchefter 27s28 seconds ago
Seahawks fired OL coach Tom Cable, as @bcondotta reported. So widespread changes to Seattle's coaching staff.

 

[dcmissle]

Who is nimbler staying ahead of the reaper, surfer Pete or John Harbaugh?

Do the Seattle fans believe this housecleaning was a top down mandate from ownership?

Separately, I heard something this morning from a former NFL player now radio host that intrigued me. He said it’s basically impossible to OC/game plan Seattle in any sort of systematic way because of Russell Wilson. It was not a condemnation of Wilson — the analyst loves him. But the basic point was this — almost everything Wilson does very successfully comes off schedule. Improvisation. Not only does that make the jobs of basic position groupings more difficult — e.g., the o-line — but also it disables the coordinator from setting up defenses systematically because almost everything is off schedule.

Thoughts?

 

[DanoooME]

Do the Seattle fans believe this housecleaning was a top down mandate from ownership?

It was definitely a "mandate" from the fanbase. We were tired of the offense being WAY too predictable and way too ineffective. I think it's equal blame between Bevell and Cable, Bevell for the playcalling and Cable for his O-line and being in charge of the overall running game. This is a very talented offense being held back by penalties, especially the type of penalties they were taking that should have been coached out of the team. I hope to hell they hire one guy to run the whole offense and someone that has some creativity. I'd have even taken Norv Turner, but he's gone to Carolina.

Separately, I heard something this morning from a former NFL player now radio host that intrigued me. He said it’s basically impossible to OC/game plan Seattle in any sort of systematic way because of Russell Wilson. It was not a condemnation of Wilson — the analyst loves him. But the basic point was this — almost everything Wilson does very successfully comes off schedule. Improvisation. Not only does that make the jobs of basic position groupings more difficult — e.g., the o-line — but also it disables the coordinator from setting up defenses systematically because almost everything is off schedule.

Thoughts?

Not everything that succeeds is due to Wilson improvisation. It's tough to find numbers, but I did find an article from last year that says he was the #1 rated passer from inside the pocket. I will agree that Russell's mobility does make it more difficult for the OL to do their jobs, but even that can be seen as an excuse, since many of them should be used to how he works. And most of the time, he's leaving the pocket because one of those guys let someone through and he has to run. I think it's mostly a cop out. He is probably the best in the league at improvising, but that's because he has to do it more than anyone else. And while everyone remembers the great plays he does make, it's fair to say there are a lot that end up with the ball thrown into the bench or he chucks one up for an interception that don't get remembered.

I think any OC worth his salt would be drooling for the opportunity to work with Wilson, Baldwin and Lockett at a minimum. Whether or not Paul Richardson or Graham is going to return is still up in the air. But there is a lot of talent there.

 

[Boston Brawler]

New OC is Colts QB coach Brian Schottenheimer per Schefter

 

[tims4wins]

Yeah that's gonna help.

 

[sketz]

Ugh...a retread. Was really hoping they’d look at college OC’s rather this kind of hire. And no, the fact that he spent one year as Georgia’s OC doesnt make me feel better.

 

[DanoooME]

I have no words. Frying pan to fire

 

[tims4wins]

Honestly - sorry guys. He is a joke.

 

[luckiestman]

He was fine as Mangini’s OC. 10-6 with healthy Pennington, 8-3 with healthy Favre.

 

[DanoooME]

He was fine as Mangini’s OC. 10-6 with healthy Pennington, 8-3 with healthy Favre.

And how much of that was due to their defense?

 

[luckiestman]

And how much of that was due to their defense?

it was pretty balanced, I didn’t include the good Rex years because that was mostly the D. He’s never had a chance to coach someone as good as Wilson.

 

[sketz]

I guess it really doesn’t matter who the OC is unless the OL gets fixed. If not, who cares what the play call is - RE will be improvising after 1.5 seconds anyway.

 

[rodderick]

He was fine as Mangini’s OC. 10-6 with healthy Pennington, 8-3 with healthy Favre.

Jets fans hated him more than I can recall a fanbase hating any coordinator.

 

[luckiestman]

Jets fans hated him more than I can recall a fanbase hating any coordinator.

Jets fans (inclusive) are really really dumb. We as a group are like Pats game thread level dumb in non game thread level situations.

We were right about Herm though, we warned KC.

 

[TimNJsoxfan]

Ken Norton - Defensive Coordinator
Mike Solari - OL Coach

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/seahawks-reportedly-poach-49ers-coaching-staff-to-hire-new-defensive-coordinator/

 

[DanoooME]

Ugh, yeah Norton grew up in the system and knows it well, but that Oakland defense was a disaster. Does he really know what he's doing? I'd rather have Richard.

Don't know anything about Solari, but it's nowhere but up from Cable.

And Jeremy Lane is likely gone after his DUI arrest. I'm guessing he's a post June 1 cut to spread his dead money ($2.5M) over two years.

 

[tims4wins]

Huge news - Wilson was traded today!

From the Rangers to the MFY

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

2 N.Y. teams needed QBs. The Yankees were not either one of those teams.