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2017 President's Cup

Discussion in 'General Sports' started by cshea, Sep 26, 2017.

  1. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    The Presidents Cup is on tap this week at Liberty National. It doesn't carry the same weight or excitement as the Ryder Cup does, but it is still a fun team competition.

    Format is different than the Ryder Cup. It's a 4 day event. They play 5 matches of fourball and 5 matches of foursomes on Thursday/Friday, then 4 matches of both fourball and foursomes on Saturday before the Sunday singles to finish it off.

    US Team:

    DJ, Spieth, Thomas, Fowler, Reed, Berger, Koepka, Kisner, Chappell, Hoffman, Kuchar and Mickelson.

    International team:

    Hideki, Day, Scott, Oosthuizen, Leishman, Schwartzel, Grace, Si-Woo Kim, Vegas, Hadwin, Grillo and Lahiri

    US usually rolls in this, and I don't see why that wouldn't continue here. I guess fatigue could be an issue since 11 of the 12 US players made it to the TV and have only had 2 weeks off in the past 2 months. But that's probably a stretch.
     
  2. TFP

    TFP Dope Dope

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    Let's do a separate thread for this. Looking forward to watching some team golf this week.
     
  3. PayrodsFirstClutchHit

    PayrodsFirstClutchHit Member SoSH Member

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    The time-off factor likely helps with Phil not playing last week. Most of the US team are young enough that it should not be a huge issue.

    Hopefully, they will have Reed dial back the enthusiastic high 5 attacks. I think he nearly broke Spieth's hand during the Ryder Cup.
     
  4. ConigliarosPotential

    ConigliarosPotential Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    I don't exactly hate the President's Cup, but I resolutely fail to see the point of it. The Ryder Cup matters to the extent that Europe is still an actual political construct, and the European Tour is a distinct entity with a tight-knit cameraderie amongst its players, and Team Europe (and its fans) really, really, really want to win it. The President's Cup is an exhibition. And exhibitions are fine, if you're into that sort of thing, but there are many, many other sporting competitions that do matter greatly to the people participating in them and the fans watching them, so I'll be watching them instead. (I don't watch spring training games or international friendlies, either, FWIW.)

    A few years ago I wrote a column in which I suggested that the Ryder Cup and President's Cup should be merged and four international teams created: USA, Great Britain & Ireland, Continental Europe, and the Commonwealth (Australia, South Africa, Canada, New Zealand, etc.). After next year's Ryder Cup, the 2019 President's Cup would feature GB&I vs. Continental Europe. The winner of that match would play the US in the 2020 Ryder Cup, and the loser of that match would play the Commonwealth in the 2021 President's Cup. After that, the winner of the President's Cup would be promoted to the Ryder Cup for the next two-year cycle, while the loser of the Ryder Cup would be relegated to the President's Cup for the next two-year cycle. Within this system, you could actually create a third event and a South American team and an Asian team as well and have three tiers instead of two, with promotion and relegation between each tier - that way, pretty much every golfer regardless of nationality might hope to play in the Ryder Cup someday, and all golfers might have much more meaningful international competition. Alas, this sort of thing will never happen, although it'd be pretty incredible if it did. (Heck, you could hold each event yearly and have both or all three competitions take place at the same venue, which would be really wild.)

    And don't get me started about how there's no proper equivalent of the Solheim Cup that involves South Korea...
     
  5. Doug Beerabelli

    Doug Beerabelli Killer Threads Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Or make loser of the Ryder Cup have to play in the next Presidents Cup. But I like CP's plan better.
     
    #5 Doug Beerabelli, Sep 28, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
  6. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    As an American golf fan, I've always viewed the Presidents Cup as a exhibition or pre-season if you will for the next Ryder Cup. I think the problems with the PC are that it's too new not enough history, event started in 1994), the US has been dominant (9-1-1; won 6 straight, no real rivalries or drama), and then time differences on the years where it's played on International soil make it hard for TV and thus it hasn't really gained much traction in the US.
     
  7. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    Anyway, here's today's foursomes

    Hideki/Schwartzel vs. Fowler/JT
    Scott/Vegas vs. DJ/Kuchar
    Kim/Grillo vs. Spieth/Reed
    Oosty/Grace vs. Koepka/Berger
    Day/Leishman vs. Mickelson/Kisner
     
  8. Zomp

    Zomp Turkey Virgin Dope

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    Spieth/Reed may be the most "I wanna punch them in the face" group we've ever had.
     
  9. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    Wind blowing today, which could make things fun. Good crowd on hand.
     
  10. TFP

    TFP Dope Dope

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    I'm trying to figure out if I like the 5 matches/1 type per day over 4 days versus the insanity of 8 matches/2 types over 3 days of the Ryder Cup. I think I do - it makes it easier to watch as a fan I think, but it feels a little less intense, especially for players who don't play one day.
     
  11. TFP

    TFP Dope Dope

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    16,403
    Rickie!

    Also - some shaky putting from Kooch on the first two holes.
     
  12. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    Why did they reroute the course? 38/33 seems odd.
     
  13. johnmd20

    johnmd20 literally like ebola Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I know this event isn't the Ryder Cup but it's still beyond awesome to watch. There aren't a lot of Team Golf events, so I'll take whatever they offer.
     
  14. Freddy Linn

    Freddy Linn Member SoSH Member

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    Heckuva shot from Phil.
     
  15. Lupe Whalewatch

    Lupe Whalewatch Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I can't believe Liberty National got this tournament. I was under the impression the place was pretty much universally hated by these guys...
     
  16. ConigliarosPotential

    ConigliarosPotential Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    I think the biggest problem with the event is the concept of the "International" team (Rest of the World ex-US/Europe). It's so artificial - what do guys from Japan and Argentina and South Africa have in common? Why should I take it seriously?

    Anyway, I'll stop raining on your parade now. :)
     
  17. johnmd20

    johnmd20 literally like ebola Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Who cares if it's artificial? They are just trying to create a competition that is somewhat equal and doing it this way is the only option.

    Your idea of making four teams is ridiculous because the US would utterly obliterate the other four teams. If you split the UK and Ireland from Continental Europe, both teams fall apart in a laughable fashion. And the commonwealth team would be an embarrassment.

    If you want to rain on a parade, you have to come up with something better. The US wins already at the President's Cut and you want to dilute their competition further?
     
  18. ConigliarosPotential

    ConigliarosPotential Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Your entire post assumes that raw talent matters more than togetherness and team spirit in team golf, even though the history of the Ryder Cup might suggest the exact opposite (particularly in the fourball and foursomes formats). Heck, the President's Cup might suggest that as well, if you grant my premise that there's little reason for the International team to exist apart from a look at the OWGR standings. My premise is that teams of similarly oriented, like-minded players might be able to surpass their individual rankings, particularly as team spirit is allowed to blossom and flourish over time.

    That said, when I wrote my aforementioned column - in the immediate aftermath of the 2014 Ryder Cup - this is what the four teams I mentioned would have looked like if you just took the top 12 players in the OWGR for each (rankings in parentheses). There are some real oddities in these lists in retrospect (Furyk at #4???), but still, at least at that moment in time, the USA has the best group of players to choose from, but the other three all looked surprisingly similar, and all in theory might give the US a run for its money in any given week:

    USA
    Furyk (4)
    B. Watson (7)
    Kuchar (9)
    Fowler (10)
    Mickelson (11)
    Horschel (13)
    Spieth (14)
    D. Johnson (15)
    Z. Johnson (16)
    Woods (17)
    Walker (19)
    Kirk (21)

    GB&I
    McIlroy (1)
    Rose (6)
    McDowell (18)
    Donaldson (25)
    Donald (32)
    Gallacher (35)
    Poulter (40)
    Westwood (45)
    Lowry (53)
    Fleetwood (63)
    Warren (65)
    Casey (66)

    Cont. Europe
    Garcia (3)
    Stenson (5)
    Kaymer (12)
    Dubuisson (23)
    Bjorn (30)
    Jimenez (36)
    Luiten (37)
    F. Molinari (49)
    Ilonen (52)
    Blixt (57)
    Wiesberger (67)
    Larrazabal (69)

    Commonwealth

    Scott (2)
    Day (8)
    Schwartzel (24)
    Delaet (38)
    Leishman (44)
    Senden (50)
    Els (51)
    Oosthuizen (58)
    M. Jones (62)
    Sterne (71)
    Ogilvy (76)
    T. Clark (78)
     
  19. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    JT and Fowler roll Hideki and Charl 6 and 4.
     
  20. johnmd20

    johnmd20 literally like ebola Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Man, Fowler and JT obliterated those guys. It was never in doubt.
     
  21. johnmd20

    johnmd20 literally like ebola Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Talent is going to reign over camaraderie, when the talent is so much better.
     
  22. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    Interesting rules situation on the Mickelson match. Day drove the ball in the water, Mickelson followed up by hitting an iron to take the water out of play. The International team ended up having to drop way back by the tee boxes since that was the point where it crossed into the hazard. So they're back on one of the forward tees while the American team was 66 yards away from the green in the fairway. The Americans ended up having to play first because Mickelson's tee shot landed well short of Day's even though Day was in the water.
     
  23. johnmd20

    johnmd20 literally like ebola Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    This coverage is atrocious, there are 3 matches going on right now and they are missing so many shots.
     
  24. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    This. Commonality and camaraderie makes for good studio talk and controversy about how the US team should be run, but the reality is that it's about talent. And sample size. When the Ryder Cup was previously GB & Ireland, the US went 18-3-1. Since they added the rest of Europe, even recognizing the U.S. has had better talent on paper, the W/L records are within the expected variance considering such a small sample. And if you want to look for reasons for the U.S.'s lack of success beyond the fortune of having players playing good golf at the right time, I'd be much more inclined to attribute it to pressure of expectations and recollections of past failures than camaraderie or lack thereof.

    The Presidents Cup is a good event. It's not the Ryder Cup, but it doesn't need to be. As long as the best eligible players continue to participate, IMO it ain't broke and doesn't need fixing.
     
  25. ConigliarosPotential

    ConigliarosPotential Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    When the Ryder Cup was previously USA vs. GB&I, the talent gulf *was* truly massive - akin to what you'd probably see now in a South Korea vs. USA or South Korea vs. Europe women's event. That's no longer the case now: if you take twelve Top 66 players in the world and put them against twelve Top 21 players, the margins are so fine that it doesn't take much to move the needle in either direction. Over the course of a season? Yes, the Top 21 players should collectively do much better. But in a single week? This isn't tennis: form in golf is so much more fickle from week to week, day to day, even morning fourballs to afternoon foursomes. The small sample size of matches involved is a huge reason why the sort of multi-faceted event I have in mind might be surprisingly competitive.

    As for the "pressure of expectations and recollections of past failures", that's completely part and parcel with cameraderie. Europe, in the Ryder Cup, manages to create an environment pretty much every year in which their ostensibly lesser players feel liberated to play their best golf in the matchplay format under the most intense pressure imaginable. The USA, in the Ryder Cup, only occasionally manages to achieve this - I think partly for historical reasons related to that pressure, and partly because there isn't the same culture of international team sports in the US as there is in Europe which European golfers are so obviously thrilled to tap into. The USA, in the President's Cup, feels no pressure because the stakes are so much lower: it feels like an exhibition, so it's just about playing golf and having fun. The International team, in the President's Cup, doesn't feel any pressure either, but it's also a completely made-up entity with very little to play for except a few extra wads of mostly meaningless cash.

    The President's Cup doesn't need fixing as such - I just think it could be so much better. The Ryder Cup is a unique and wonderful sporting event precisely because it has come to matter so much. It has become golf's equivalent of the World Cup Finals in soccer. The President's Cup is like an All-Star Game. All-Star Games can be fun in any sport. But I'd rather have two competitions like the World Cup than one like the World Cup and one like an All-Star Game. And particularly if and when Brexit does fully become a reality, and "Europe" is no longer a unitary label that fits the USA's opponent in the current Ryder Cup, I hope the idea of creating one "British and Irish Lions" team (mirroring rugby union) and a separate European Union team is given serious thought.
     
  26. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    Yes, you have successfully repeated the conventional studio chatter we're subjected to every time the Euros win. And I'm saying I don't buy it. Europe didn't suddenly become enemies the last time around, and the U.S. didn't become blood brothers overnight. When you win, everybody's your best friend. When you lose, you hear about all of the discord. The talent gulf in reality is minimal, and as we've both now acknowledged, on Any Given Fri-Sunday anything can happen. Europe's 10-8-1 record is squarely within the fat part of the range of expected outcomes after 19 flips of this coin.

    Exactly. It's not tinkering it needs. It's time.
     
  27. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    Also, FYI it's the "Presidents Cup," not "President's." Getting it wrong shouldn't present too much of a problem if you end up announcing it one day, but I wouldn't want you to freak out mid-whisper when you read the chyron. ;)
     
  28. ConigliarosPotential

    ConigliarosPotential Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Heh. :) (Thanks - duly noted.)
     
  29. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    If you don't think there's pressure on these guys, check out Lahiri's quack hook right into the water on the first tee today.
     
  30. Lupe Whalewatch

    Lupe Whalewatch Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Lahiri needs to check out the rules apparently as well. Just disqualified from 3rd hole for practicing bunker shots on second green.
     
  31. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    He's a walking tragedy at this point. It's all on Charl, and he doesn't look much better.
     
  32. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    DQ'd from hole 3 for practicing on hole 2. Woof.

    Missed Lupe's post
     
  33. johnmd20

    johnmd20 literally like ebola Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Vegas playing some golf today. Adam Scott is not, but that team is up one versus DJ and Keopka after 5.
     
  34. Phragle

    Phragle wild card bitches SoSH Member

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    Man, If he heats up, watch out for Charl
     
  35. johnmd20

    johnmd20 literally like ebola Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Two shots by the US were rolling into the hole before the flag popped it back out. Thomas' shot didn't matter but Kisner's bomb didn't fall and it cost them a chance to win the hole.

    That said, the US is doing pretty well overall.
     
  36. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    7-3 is probably the best the International team can hope for here. Not looking good.
     
  37. johnmd20

    johnmd20 literally like ebola Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Commercials. Commercials. Commercials. Thank god they have the play through but it's so many commercials.
     
  38. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    Phil make and Leishman miss on 18 makes it a 4.5-.5 day for the US. 8-2 overall.
     
  39. TFP

    TFP Dope Dope

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    So what happens if the USA wraps this thing up tomorrow?
     
  40. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    I can't imagine they'd just pack it up and go home. Too much money involved with TV and ticket sales, so I figure they would just go out and play.
     
  41. johnmd20

    johnmd20 literally like ebola Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    US has to win 7 and tie 1 match to win it tomorrow. That could happen, but it's unlikely.

    Still, the talent gap between these teams is wide. The Intl team just doesn't have any depth and both Scott and Oooz didn't play well, which kills them. I know you've always gotta watch out for Charl, but still, it's not a fair matchup.
     
  42. The Napkin

    The Napkin wise ass al kaprielian Dope SoSH Member

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    Always a good idea to keep an eye out for a potential hot Charl
     
  43. TFP

    TFP Dope Dope

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    Seems like Vegas is the only guy who bothered to show up for the International squad. The rest of them are playing some bad, bad golf.
     
  44. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    This US team is set up to be a wagon over the next 10-20 years. Phil and Kuch will age out, but the core of Spieth, JT, DJ, Reed, Fowler, Koepka should be in place for a long time.
     
  45. TFP

    TFP Dope Dope

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    The funny part is that Kuchar isn’t that much older than DJ, even though it feels like he’s 10+ years apart.
     
  46. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    Haha good point. Kuch just looks like he's 50.

    Reed/Spieth dust Day/Leishman.

    Winning today is definitely within reach.
     
  47. TFP

    TFP Dope Dope

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    This is a bloodbath.
     
  48. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    Send Tiger and Strick out this afternoon for old times sake. Tiger can just hit his wedge 60 yards at a time.
     
  49. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    Also, Bones is excellent.
     
  50. TFP

    TFP Dope Dope

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    Stricker/Couples and DL3/Furyk could probably win points at this rate.
     

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