2017 NBA Draft Thread

HomeRunBaker

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This is a redonk take on butler. He's in his prime and a top 10 ish player.

I wouldn't trade fultz on most teams but.. the Celtics have three good guards no?
I touched upon this in the other thread but Bradley is due to get paid bigly after next season and Fultz could be the better player fairly quickly at a fraction of the cost. We actually have 4 good guards if you include Rozier who has been crucial in several playoff games this year in many of them outplaying Smart.
 

heavyde050

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This is a redonk take on butler. He's in his prime and a top 10 ish player.

I wouldn't trade fultz on most teams but.. the Celtics have three good guards no?
Butler has been a good player for a decent amount of his career but catapulted into top 10 NBA player discussion this past season. He may never have a better season than this past one.
He also is only cheap for a few more years. Count in the Fultz camp. I am all in.
 

Ale Xander

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This is a redonk take on butler. He's in his prime and a top 10 ish player.

I wouldn't trade fultz on most teams but.. the Celtics have three good guards no?
top 10? top 10-ish? redonk

Lebron
Westbrook
Harden
Curry
Durant
Green
Thompson
Kawhi
Davis
Paul
Lillard
Wall
Greek
George
Kyrie
Heyward
Cousins
Jokic
Derozan
Griffin


there's more too.
 

scottyno

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Kyrie over Butler??? Kyrie wasn't even better than Butler before Butler made the leap this year
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yeah, because Kyrie is a bum and wasn't a key reason the Cavs won a title last year. Butler is in that group of players with Kyrie.
 

Koufax

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Why wouldn't they just wait that one out since he wants to go there anyway and will be a free agent next year?
 

moondog80

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Why wouldn't they just wait that one out since he wants to go there anyway and will be a free agent next year?
Because maybe he doesn't want to go there, or maybe he does right now but if he gets traded somewhere else he might change his mind.
 

smastroyin

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Re: George. He really made a good push to be named to an All-NBA this year. Can he get a supermax from a team he is traded to or only the Pacers (I don't feel like digging through the CBA right now). Would it need to eventually be a sign and trade for him to get a supermax and not be a Pacer? Can you sign and trade supermaxes? All of these questions go into whether he gets traded this summer, I think. Even though he says he's not motivated by money, if the money is put in front of him, it will be hard to turn down.
 

nighthob

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Odds of George to Lakers for #2?
If George is all NBA 0%. Because at that point the money difference between what he gets from Indiana and anyone else is so great that there's no way he doesn't sign the extension. (This goes for Hayward as well, if he makes all-NBA he won't be leaving Utah, but I can't see them both making it, so one of them will be available this summer.)

top 10? top 10-ish? redonk

Lebron
Westbrook
Harden
Curry
Durant
Green
Thompson
Kawhi
Davis
Paul
Lillard
Wall
Greek
George
Kyrie
Heyward
Cousins
Jokic
Derozan
Griffin


there's more too.
I mean I see Butler's erratic range game as a weakness, but he's still better than a good portion of that list (especially the defensively challenged guys like Lillard). And isn't DeRozan basically the worse shooting version of Butler that only Ds up in stretches?

I'd have Butler in the middle of that list. But I would definitely not trade Fultz for him. For one thing Fultz is security if the bidding on Lil' Zeke gets too rich for Boston's blood in the summer of '18.
 

DJnVa

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Continuing their slide into irrelevance, ESPN Radio had Stugotz (???) on this morning to discuss the NBA draft. Here's 2 quick takeaways:

1-Knicks should send Carmelo and the 8th pick to Boston for the #1
2-He hasn't seen Fultz play at all

In fairness, both Mikes pushed back on the Carmelo thing. They said they thought he was gonna say Porzingas and the #8.


So, you have him on to discuss the draft why?
 

smastroyin

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Man I really don't want to the C's to trade for Butler now because I'm already sick to death of people who don't understand spacing and defense complaining non-stop about Horford and Crowder. Add a guy whose value doesn't leap off the eFG% page? This place will be unbearable.
 

67YAZ

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Odds of George to Lakers for #2?
Low. Have to think Magic prefers to trade some combo of Russell, Randle, Ingram, Black, Young, and Clarkson because Ball has a higher ceiling and Ball will put butts in seats for a couple years at least.

Problem is that if Indy continues to include Ellis in every George deal, then the only way to make salary work is for Indy to take back Mozgov or Deng. Both those guys have contracts running a year longer than Ellis, so it's hard to see why Indy would be interested unless George starts to make a big public and private push to get to the Lakers.
 

cheech13

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Continuing their slide into irrelevance, ESPN Radio had Stugotz (???) on this morning to discuss the NBA draft. Here's 2 quick takeaways:

1-Knicks should send Carmelo and the 8th pick to Boston for the #1
2-He hasn't seen Fultz play at all

In fairness, both Mikes pushed back on the Carmelo thing. They said they thought he was gonna say Porzingas and the #8.


So, you have him on to discuss the draft why?
Stugotz is a basically a gimmick radio personality that gives hot-take, guy-at-the-bar quotes that the other hosts can rip on.
 

Beomoose

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In a slow moment today and i'm just thinking about the next X years of LaVar Ball and the LA-focused sports media together. It's either the most terrible or most perfect thing I can imagine to come out of the NBA draft, and I can't decide which.
 

BigSoxFan

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In a slow moment today and i'm just thinking about the next X years of LaVar Ball and the LA-focused sports media together. It's either the most terrible or most perfect thing I can imagine to come out of the NBA draft, and I can't decide which.
It's win/win. If he sucks, it will be such a tremendous shit show and we'll get to watch and laugh. If he's good, then it'll make rooting against the Lakers that much more fun. NBA is in such a good spot. You have LeBron still in his prime, a Super Team out west, the Spurs machine still rolling, the Celtics about to make their ascent, and LA percolating. And then you still have tons of young stars ready to bust out. Adam Silver can basically sit back and relax. He's in a golden era.
 

nighthob

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Continuing their slide into irrelevance, ESPN Radio had Stugotz (???) on this morning to discuss the NBA draft. Here's 2 quick takeaways:

1-Knicks should send Carmelo and the 8th pick to Boston for the #1
2-He hasn't seen Fultz play at all

In fairness, both Mikes pushed back on the Carmelo thing. They said they thought he was gonna say Porzingas and the #8.


So, you have him on to discuss the draft why?
Porzingas and #8 for #1 would be a great leg up on landing Hayward.
 

Beomoose

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It's win/win. If he sucks, it will be such a tremendous shit show and we'll get to watch and laugh. If he's good, then it'll make rooting against the Lakers that much more fun. NBA is in such a good spot. You have LeBron still in his prime, a Super Team out west, the Spurs machine still rolling, the Celtics about to make their ascent, and LA percolating. And then you still have tons of young stars ready to bust out. Adam Silver can basically sit back and relax. He's in a golden era.
All he needs is two more teams
 

LondonSox

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top 10? top 10-ish? redonk

Lebron
Westbrook
Harden
Curry
Durant
Green
Thompson
Kawhi
Davis
Paul
Lillard
Wall
Greek
George
Kyrie
Heyward
Cousins
Jokic
Derozan
Griffin


there's more too.
If you are quoting kyrie and derozan as better than butler I can safely say you can be ignore.

Lebron
Curry
Kawhi
Durant
Are better

On a level harden, Davis and Westbrook maybe Paul and Greek freak.

I wouldn't argue with someone saying he's top 5 even.
But it's opinion. But to argue de fucking rozan or kyrie or griffin are better than butler is a bad take
 

DJnVa

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Lonzo Ball will only work out for Lakers: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/lakers/2017/05/17/lavar-ball-lonzo-ball-workout-only-lakers/101784360/

"That's all we working out for is the Lakers," LaVar Ball told Lakers Nation. "Just the Lakers. There's nobody else that we need to work out for."

LaVar, who raised his three boys in Chino Hills, Calif., and has created the Big Baller Brand — which most notably features $495 shoes for Lonzo — also didn't mince words in his belief that Lonzo can help immediately. He expects his son to resuscitate the storied franchise from an unprecedented four consecutive losing, playoff-less seasons.

"The Lakers make the playoffs as soon as my boy gets there," LaVar said.
 

heavyde050

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If you are quoting kyrie and derozan as better than butler I can safely say you can be ignore.

Lebron
Curry
Kawhi
Durant
Are better

On a level harden, Davis and Westbrook maybe Paul and Greek freak.

I wouldn't argue with someone saying he's top 5 even.
But it's opinion. But to argue de fucking rozan or kyrie or griffin are better than butler is a bad take
I get Butler is at or near a top 10 talent, but to insinuate that Butler is on an equal tier to Westbrook is equally as maddening if not worse than saying DeRozan is better than Butler.
I agree with overall contention that all this is mostly opinion, but it may be a borderline fact that Westbrook is on a higher level in whatever ranking tier there is compared to Butler.
And I would take Davis and the Greek Freak over Butler in millisecond as well (that is just my opinion though).
 

DannyDarwinism

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I didn't see it, but apparently Lavar also just told a female ESPN reporter to "stay in her lane" when she asked him a question then told her that Big Baller Brand isn't for women. Jeanie Buss must be thrilled at the prospect of dealing with this guy. I really, really hope the Lakers pass on Lonzo. Or maybe it's more fun for them to have to deal with the shitshow. Lavar is just lighting money on fire now.
 

smastroyin

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I realize not everyone believes in RPM, but Butler was 6th in the league this year, behind Paul, LeBron, Curry, Jokic, Kawhi, just ahead of Draymond, Gobert, Westbrook, and Durant.

He was 3rd (Harden, Gobert) in the NBA in Win Shares and and 6th in WS/48 (Durant, Paul, Kawhi, Gobert, Harden)

He doesn't fill up a box score as well as a bunch of other guys (although he was still 10th in BPM and 13th in PER), but he also has much less usage than most of them (he was not in the top 20, and was second on his own team)

Jimmy Butler is a really really good player. As others have noted it may be his peak year, and he may regress some, and I'm not endorsing a trade. But in the 16-17 season I feel pretty confident saying he was a top 10 player, and overall he's a good bet to be top 20 going forward for at least a few years.

Does that make him as good as the ultra-elite LeBron, Curry, Leonard, Durant, Paul (for now)? No, it does not.
 

heavyde050

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I realize not everyone believes in RPM, but Butler was 6th in the league this year, behind Paul, LeBron, Curry, Jokic, Kawhi, just ahead of Draymond, Gobert, Westbrook, and Durant.

He was 3rd (Harden, Gobert) in the NBA in Win Shares and and 6th in WS/48 (Durant, Paul, Kawhi, Gobert, Harden)

He doesn't fill up a box score as well as a bunch of other guys (although he was still 10th in BPM and 13th in PER), but he also has much less usage than most of them (he was not in the top 20, and was second on his own team)

Jimmy Butler is a really really good player. As others have noted it may be his peak year, and he may regress some, and I'm not endorsing a trade. But in the 16-17 season I feel pretty confident saying he was a top 10 player, and overall he's a good bet to be top 20 going forward for at least a few years.

Does that make him as good as the ultra-elite LeBron, Curry, Leonard, Durant? No, it does not.
Great post and thanks for providing all those metrics and rankings.
Butler this past year was definitely a top 10 player (or pretty darn close), but I agree further he is not a member of the ultra-elite.
 

Ale Xander

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I realize not everyone believes in RPM, but Butler was 6th in the league this year, behind Paul, LeBron, Curry, Jokic, Kawhi, just ahead of Draymond, Gobert, Westbrook, and Durant.

He was 3rd (Harden, Gobert) in the NBA in Win Shares and and 6th in WS/48 (Durant, Paul, Kawhi, Gobert, Harden)

He doesn't fill up a box score as well as a bunch of other guys (although he was still 10th in BPM and 13th in PER), but he also has much less usage than most of them (he was not in the top 20, and was second on his own team)

Jimmy Butler is a really really good player. As others have noted it may be his peak year, and he may regress some, and I'm not endorsing a trade. But in the 16-17 season I feel pretty confident saying he was a top 10 player, and overall he's a good bet to be top 20 going forward for at least a few years.

Does that make him as good as the ultra-elite LeBron, Curry, Leonard, Durant, Paul (for now)? No, it does not.
/adding Gobert to my list of players better than Butler . . . (also adding Towns, btw).

FYI, PER does, by definition, take usage into account.

If LS said top-20, instead of top-10. I wouldn't be arguing with him.

Having one top-10 year doesn't make you a top-10 player.

If you want to include contract, that may be a whole different story. But there's more than 10 players that would not be traded head-to-head with Butler, for one year, or five years, leaving money aside.
 
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heavyde050

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/adding Gobert to my list of players better than Butler . . . (also adding Towns, btw).

FYI, PER does, by definition, take usage into account.

If LS said top-20, instead of top-10. I wouldn't be arguing with him.

Having one top-10 year doesn't make you a top-10 player.

If you want to include contract, that may be a whole different story. But there's more than 10 players that would not be traded head-to-head with Butler, for one year, or five years, leaving money aside.
And he is only cheap for a few more years. He is an UFA in 2020 (so at best he has three years before he gets paid market value).

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/jimmy-butler-8081/
 

amfox1

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Continuing their slide into irrelevance, ESPN Radio had Stugotz (???) on this morning to discuss the NBA draft. Here's 2 quick takeaways:

1-Knicks should send Carmelo and the 8th pick to Boston for the #1
2-He hasn't seen Fultz play at all

In fairness, both Mikes pushed back on the Carmelo thing. They said they thought he was gonna say Porzingas and the #8.

So, you have him on to discuss the draft why?
While I wouldn't be surprised if Anthony is traded, I'd be surprised if was traded for a top 20 pick. I think Anthony to BOS would be for pick #37 this year or a future heavily-protected 1st rounder and only if Ainge doesn't believe he could sign Hayward, Griffin or any other FA forward or center or make a trade for George or a center such as Vucevic. Anthony could be a stopgap for next year as the PF, although I don't think he's a good fit for a Brad offense.

I cannot imagine Phil trading Porzingis this offseason.
 

amfox1

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Updated list (bold - staying in draft, italics - back to school, red - not yet known)

Updated as of 4/20pm (deadline is 4/23), updated as of 4/24am for agent signings

Declared but won't hire agent immediately:

Shaqquan Aaron, USC
Jaylen Adams, St. Bonaventure
Deng Adel, Louisville
Jashaun Agosto, LIU Brooklyn
Rawle Alkins, Arizona
Jaylen Barford, Arkansas
Joel Berry II, North Carolina

James Blackmon, Indiana
Trevon Bluiett, Xavier
Bennie Boatwright, USC
Tony Bradley, North Carolina
Dillon Brooks, Oregon
Thomas Bryant, Indiana

Rodney Bullock, Providence
Khadeen Carrington, Seton Hall
Joseph Chartouny, Fordham
Donte Clark, Massachusetts

Chance Comanche, Arizona
Angel Delgado, Seton Hall
Hamidou Diallo, Kentucky
Vince Edwards, Purdue
John Egbunu, Florida
Jon Elmore, Marshall
Obi Enechionyia, Temple
Drew Eubanks, Oregon State
Tacko Fall, Central Florida
Brandon Goodwin, Florida Gulf Coast
Isaac Haas, Purdue
Aaron Holiday, UCLA
Chandler Hutchinson, Boise State

Frank Jackson, Duke
Justin Jackson, Maryland
B.J. Johnson, La Salle

Darin Johnson, Cal-Northridge
Jaylen Johnson, Louisville

Robert Johnson, Indiana
Andrew Jones, Texas
Braxton Key, Alabama

Kyle Kuzma, Utah
William Lee, Alabama-Birmingham
Daryl Macon, Arkansas
Yante Maten, Georgia
Markis McDuffie, Wichita State
MiKyle McIntosh, Illinois State

Eric Mika, BYU
Donovan Mitchell, Louisville

Matt Morgan, Cornell
Johnathan Motley, Baylor
Svi Mykhailiuk, Kansas
Semi Ojeleye, SMU
Randy Onwuasor, Southern Utah
Theo Pinson, North Carolina

Maverick Rowan, NC State
Corey Sanders, Rutgers
Jaaron Simmons, Ohio
Fred Sims, Chicago State

Jaren Sina, George Washington
Zach Smith, Texas Tech
Elijah Stewart, USC

Caleb Swanigan, Purdue
Stephen Thompson, Oregon State
Trevor Thompson, Ohio State
Moritz Wagner, Michigan
Thomas Welch, UCLA
Thomas Wilder, Western Michigan
Johnathan Williams, Gonzaga

DJ Wilson, Michigan
Omer Yurtseven, NC State
 
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Cesar Crespo

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If we weren't so guard heavy, I'd love to try and acquire another lottery pick to land Monk. Seems like the perfect offense off the bench type that we could use. As is, we have no use for another guard.
 

HomeRunBaker

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A. Sherrod Blakely‏Verified account @SherrodbCSN 6m6 minutes ago
.@Celtics are NYC-bound for workouts today that will feature Duke's Harry Giles, UCLA's T.J. Leaf and Kentucky's Malik Monk. #Celticstalk
Keep in mind that Ainge (and other GM's) aren't only working these guys out or attending their workouts for the purpose of potentially drafting them. This is a part of a GM's responsibility in gaining information on a player who may or may not be available or involved in a few years down the road. It's due diligence.....but not necessarily only for the purpose of this draft.
 

tims4wins

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Keep in mind that Ainge (and other GM's) aren't only working these guys out or attending their workouts for the purpose of potentially drafting them. This is a part of a GM's responsibility in gaining information on a player who may or may not be available or involved in a few years down the road. It's due diligence.....but not necessarily only for the purpose of this draft.
And as we learned from BB, also for scouting reports for playing AGAINST these players
 

PedroKsBambino

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Where is Giles expected to go? It seems like the pick they could get in return for AB could be used on Giles, maybe even Leaf but less likely.
I'm not sure there's a bigger wildcard in the draft than Giles. So much depends on the med evals of team doctors. He could credibly go top 5-6 if someone thinks his knees are fine (he was the top talent a year ago, remember)...and I wouldn't be shocked to see him drop into late first round otherwise. I guess if they are ugly enough medicals or workout shows he's lost a lot, perhaps even second.

I see him in the teens in some mocks, but I think the better description is we have no idea where between about 5 and 35 he might go.
 

ehaz

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Even if Giles' knees are healthy, the knock on him has always been that he's incredibly raw in terms of basketball IQ, etc. His upside was always humongous because of the amount of burst and acceleration for a guy in his frame, but he hasn't shown that same fast twitch athleticism at Duke. I think in a loaded draft he goes 25-30
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Also throws another nice talent into next year's draft.
While removing one from a first round in which Brooklyn has two picks, though Diallo is probably the kind of raw pick that would help them lose a bunch of games this year if he even saw minutes.
 

nighthob

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A. Sherrod Blakely‏Verified account @SherrodbCSN 6m6 minutes ago
.@Celtics are NYC-bound for workouts today that will feature Duke's Harry Giles, UCLA's T.J. Leaf and Kentucky's Malik Monk. #Celticstalk
Giles has had nearly as many reconstructive knee surgeries as Brandon Roy, so there's a chance he could float down to 37 (I would be unshocked if it happened, his selling point in high school was the athleticism that he showed zero of last year). Leaf would need to be a mid first round pick, but if Boston needs to trade Bradley for a Hayward signing anyway, they might be kicking the tires on forwards that could go in the 15-25 range in the case of an AB deal.
 

Cellar-Door

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Fast rising former sleeper Jonathan Jeanne has Marfan syndrome.
Have to think he pulls out of the draft at this point, he's looking at several years of treatment at least, before he is cleared for basketball by an NBA team.
 

Kid T

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just reading up on Marfan syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marfan_syndrome
Today, cardiovascular symptoms of Marfan syndrome are still the most significant issues in diagnosis and management of the disease, but adequate prophylactic monitoring and prophylactic therapy offers something approaching a normal lifespan, and more manifestations of the disease are being discovered as more patients live longer
not mentioned is how the symptoms may interrupt day to day activities (never mind those of a professional athlete). But it sounds like they closely monitor the patients and treat new symptoms as they arise.