2017 Gronk: Mojo Gronk

5dice

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It is often talked about how much he creates mismatches.
Unfortunately, those mismatches and the resulting broken defensive plays create desperate and often awkward, doubleteamed, open field tackles like yesterday (saying a smurf tackled him is off, it was two normal size safeties Bell and Williams, one from the back, one head on).

As was stated above, there is no way for him to modify playing style, just playing time, which is antithetical to the Patriots'/Brady "60 minutes" Way.
If like Stitch suggests he gets removed from seams and other middle routes to protect him, what does he really do instead?



 

Stitch01

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Bell is 5 '11 205. To Gronk, I consider that a smurf.

Also, just to be clear, I might be cautious with playing time for Gronk in some spots and reduce some exposure when the Pats are curbstomping the Jets at Foxboro later this year, but Im personally not advocating changing how they use Gronk overall.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I think you ride Gronk for as long as you can knowing that he doesn't have much tread left in the tires. His style of play is what makes him so effective, I don't see how you change that without significantly reducing his effectiveness. Limit his snaps if you can and keep him off the field in blowouts, but for a guy who plays the way he plays the injuries and/or decline are coming sooner rather than later.

Personally after watching him in Week 1 I thought it might have already arrived. Great to see him respond, and it would have been a vintage Gronk monster game if he had held onto the 2nd touchdown.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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There really isn't anything he can do with his style of play to lessen the risk of injury. It would be a disservice to him and his teammates if he were intentionally going away from things out of fear he may get injured. As BB says, football players play football. In fact, the risk of injury may be greater if he was consciously doing something out of the ordinary in order to avoid injury.
That's sort of my point, its a logical thought but doesnt really seem practical to implement. It seems to me like the main way to reduce Gronk's chances of getting injured is to reduce his role attacking the middle of the field in the passing game. So maybe he sits the fourth quarter when the Pats are winning and maybe he runs fewer routes against the Jets or w/e when one of the scrub squads comes to town, but basically there's just not a lot to be done.
I agree, and would go a step further to say it's really, really hard to change the mindset you play with. He's wired to look for every angle. He's been a monster his whole career, and he's subconsciously built every juke, trucking, stuff arm, and shimmy two leverage that to his success. Maybe there are some people who have an "off" button, but Gronk ain't one of 'em.

After a few more bouts with injury, he'll try. But the injuries will have taken their toll, and changing the mindset will completely neuter the player. At his peak, he was the Pedro of tight ends. Seriously, just enjoy him while you can.
 

steveluck7

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Brandon Meriweather was on with Toucher and Rich this morning and they asked him if he ever tackled Gronk in practice. BM described it as tacking a tree stump but said you have to hit him hard, that's the only way he's going to go down. Nothing we didn't already know from watching week in and week out but it's good to remember that the hits being delivered on Gronk are probably harder than other guys
 

DJnVa

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On the diving Gronk catch, if there was less pressure, that was an easy TD, but Brady couldn't get the ball over the top. So, essentially, Gronk had them beat short and long on that play. GJGE Steelers.
 

axx

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I think he has to get to 1200 yards to get the full bonus regardless of the All-Pro voting. He has a shot now being at 1017.
 

eustis22

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I dunno but it seems to me that Gronk seems to have learned to fall better this season, even with two men on him. Maybe somne tipos from his WWE friends?

I could be wrong.
 

bankshot1

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The Gronk and Allen blocks on the Lewis TD run crushed the Steelers D-line and opened that massive hole for Lewis.

there's a great video on the game thread showing the play from a different angle (video is the last 2+ minutes of the game)
 

edmunddantes

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I think he has to get to 1200 yards to get the full bonus regardless of the All-Pro voting. He has a shot now being at 1017.
Nope. Everything I've seen says the All-Pro trumps everything. That comes from the great @patscap on twitter. So I trust it.

‪Tier 3 (additional $1.5 million): 70 percent playing time or 60 receptions or 800 receiving yards or 10 TDs.‬

Tier 2 (additional $3.5 million): 80 percent playing time or 70 catches or 1,000 receiving yards or 12 TDs.‬

‪Tier 1 (additional $5.5 million): 90 percent playing time or 80 catches or 1,200 receiving yards or 14 TDs or All-Pro designation.
 

edmunddantes

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Tier 1

90 percent - not happening
80 catches - 64 now - going to take a monster last 2 games - edit... sorry he's averaging 5.3 this year would need 8 average next two so not as bad as I thought at first. Did it 3 times this year (8,9,9)
1200 receiving yards - 1017 - doable as he's averaged 84.8 in games he played. He needs to average 91.5 to get it (he's done this 3 times this year >90)
14 TDs - 7 - would need monster last two games (best is 2 and he's done it twice)
All-Pro - (shrugs) but is definitely in contention if not front runner

So it's 1200 or All-Pro for him.
 

Bowhemian

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Regarding the 5 plays in the video, watching in real time during the game, my son and I both noticed that none of those 3 passes were very good. The third pass, the shoestring, if Brady hits Gronk even with the ball at his waist, it is a likely TD.
And then the block on the Lewis run, sure it was a good block. But also a very easy block. The DE shifted even further inside just before the snap, so all Gronky had to do was get in his way. He barely had to turn him in.
 

tims4wins

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Regarding the 5 plays in the video, watching in real time during the game, my son and I both noticed that none of those 3 passes were very good. The third pass, the shoestring, if Brady hits Gronk even with the ball at his waist, it is a likely TD.
And then the block on the Lewis run, sure it was a good block. But also a very easy block. The DE shifted even further inside just before the snap, so all Gronky had to do was get in his way. He barely had to turn him in.
Brady is moving for at least two of the three passes. They weren't all that bad.

Edit: he was moving for the first and third. The second he laid in there perfectly.
 

InstaFace

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On the diving Gronk catch, if there was less pressure, that was an easy TD, but Brady couldn't get the ball over the top. So, essentially, Gronk had them beat short and long on that play. GJGE Steelers.
Looking at the skycam replay, it looks as if, had Brady waited any longer or floated it a bit more, a DB underneath gronk coming from the right would have had a chance to jump it. I think Brady fit it in the one place it could go. Could it have been 2 feet higher? Probably. Could it have been lofted out in front of him? No, I don't think so.
 

DJnVa

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Regarding the 5 plays in the video, watching in real time during the game, my son and I both noticed that none of those 3 passes were very good. The third pass, the shoestring, if Brady hits Gronk even with the ball at his waist, it is a likely TD.
And then the block on the Lewis run, sure it was a good block. But also a very easy block. The DE shifted even further inside just before the snap, so all Gronky had to do was get in his way. He barely had to turn him in.
The second throw was fucking perfect my man.
 

DJnVa

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Looking at the skycam replay, it looks as if, had Brady waited any longer or floated it a bit more, a DB underneath gronk coming from the right would have had a chance to jump it. I think Brady fit it in the one place it could go. Could it have been 2 feet higher? Probably. Could it have been lofted out in front of him? No, I don't think so.
Yes. But I was positing that had he not had to move around then the throw may have come sooner, not later.
 

tims4wins

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Not sure the Bills would be too receptive to that.

I'm convinced that the Bills are going to put Gronk out of the playoffs this week with a cheap shot. I really, really, really hope I'm wrong.
Mike Reiss‏Verified account @MikeReiss 7m7 minutes ago
Mike Reiss Retweeted SiriusXM NFL Radio

"As I had time to think about it, I knew he wasn't that type of player." -- Tre'Davious White on Rob Gronkowski.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Full quote below. Encouraging, hopefully Gronk can offer an personal apology pre-game. He owes the guy that at least.

Bills CB Tre'Davious White to SiriusXM NFL Radio on Tuesday about Rob Gronkowski: "As I've had time to think about it, I knew he wasn't that type of player. We just honed in and moved on from it. But I get the film Sunday and the best way that I can handle that situation and just try to go in there and just get a big old ‘W' in their stadium and try to help our playoff chances. So yeah, I'm not a guy who's going to try to do a cheap shot after the whistle. Nothing. I'm gonna play the game the way it's supposed to be played. Respect the game and just like I said, going in there and winning would be the best revenge."
 

bakahump

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I thought Allen's block on that play was even more impressive.
Talk about being aware. Allen knew that the run was up his and Gronks back. He also knew that he and Gronk absolutely road graded the 2 defenders.

Watch the Video again. Watch Allens reaction. He stands up and flexes. He doesnt even turn his head to see the results or to see the TD. He KNOWS it went in because he knows no on can make the tackle.
 

BaseballJones

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Talk about being aware. Allen knew that the run was up his and Gronks back. He also knew that he and Gronk absolutely road graded the 2 defenders.

Watch the Video again. Watch Allens reaction. He stands up and flexes. He doesnt even turn his head to see the results or to see the TD. He KNOWS it went in because he knows no on can make the tackle.
Yeah, and this partially shows why BB is happy with Allen. We don't focus on this as fans (well here we do more than most but still), but he's a blocking beast and I'm sure there are so many plays where he mauls a guy and we just don't notice.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Tier 1

90 percent - not happening
80 catches - 64 now - going to take a monster last 2 games - edit... sorry he's averaging 5.3 this year would need 8 average next two so not as bad as I thought at first. Did it 3 times this year (8,9,9)
1200 receiving yards - 1017 - doable as he's averaged 84.8 in games he played. He needs to average 91.5 to get it (he's done this 3 times this year >90)
14 TDs - 7 - would need monster last two games (best is 2 and he's done it twice)
All-Pro - (shrugs) but is definitely in contention if not front runner

So it's 1200 or All-Pro for him.
Is it bad that I'm kind of hoping he doesn't make it? I mean, if we need 183 yards from him to go 2-0, then of course, but saving $2.5 million on the cap would be kind of nice.
 

nattysez

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Full quote below. Encouraging, hopefully Gronk can offer an personal apology pre-game. He owes the guy that at least.
Agreed.

I'm still worried about what happens if the Pats are up by 17 and there are 5 minutes left in the 4th (and Gronk is still in), but I guess we'll see...
 

InstaFace

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I'm still worried about what happens if the Pats are up by 17 and there are 5 minutes left in the 4th (and Gronk is still in), but I guess we'll see...
I hope, vainly, that Belichick will make an exception to his usual approach and will sit the starters early on sunday if the game is mostly in-hand.

But with White's comments, I'm now a lot less worried about a deliberate cheap shot. Still have to worry about Gronk every time he takes the field, of course, but at least there's no TJ Ward-style extra risk lurking.
 

Red Averages

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Is it bad that I'm kind of hoping he doesn't make it? I mean, if we need 183 yards from him to go 2-0, then of course, but saving $2.5 million on the cap would be kind of nice.
This isn't to pick on you - but I've always found how fans root for teams/players fascinating. The above is a perfect example. You root for Gronk, if you were a teammate you'd want success for him, you'd want him to get rewarded for his deserving performance. If you were in his shoes, you'd certainly want to award & reward. Yet, as a fan typically people revert to rooting for the business (team). Just an interesting dynamic - and we hear it often when players leave teams, get traded etc. Yet in the business world the opposite is always the case as perspectives change. </tangent>
 

NortheasternPJ

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Man, that block on the Lewis TD. He took a D-Lineman and didn't just hold him up, he pushed him 5 yards into the interior of the line. That was devastating.
I love the safety on the two point conversion slowing moving over towards Gronk like Brady’s not going to notice and is 3 seconds late anyways. That’s how my dog attacks squirrels and hasn’t got one in 10 years.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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This isn't to pick on you - but I've always found how fans root for teams/players fascinating. The above is a perfect example. You root for Gronk, if you were a teammate you'd want success for him, you'd want him to get rewarded for his deserving performance. If you were in his shoes, you'd certainly want to award & reward. Yet, as a fan typically people revert to rooting for the business (team). Just an interesting dynamic - and we hear it often when players leave teams, get traded etc. Yet in the business world the opposite is always the case as perspectives change. </tangent>
It's true I'm rooting for the team, but I don't really care about the business just so long as it remains a going concern and healthy enough to keep making sound financial decisions.

I wish everyone on the team could get $100 million. They give me great joy. I'm not rooting against anyone. But the reality is we live in a salary cap era. If Gronk earns $2.5 million because he gets a few yards over 1200, that's $2.5 million worse that the team will be next year when this incentive gets tacked on to the cap. That might be the difference between being able to sign Edelman, or whatever -- another player I adore and want on my team. Like it or not, the NFL is a zero sum game for fans.

By and large, it's hard to think of a situation in which I wouldn't want a player to earn his incentives because doing so is good for the team. This is different, though. As I understand these incentives, they were called a "restructure," but this was essentially just a a tack on to his contract. It was pretty close to a gift -- thought obviously the Patriots are not a charity. They did it to try to give Gronk incentives. If he gets to 1200, he will have earned it. But it makes my favorite team a bit worse next year. And, I admit I am a bit pissed at Gronk for taking a bad penalty that got him suspended and hurt the team's chances with respect to a big division game. He's already getting $3 million of the bonus. He already makes an awful lot of money. Getting slightly past 1200 yards and not making any of the other thresholds, even after he got suspended for an important game, and making an extra $2.5 million does bother me a bit.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I have a feeling if he gets the yards or not, they’ll give him the bonus. They’ve done it in the past (Wilfork?) and I don’t see them causing bad blood over $2M. I think the incentive was almost purely about staying on the field.
 

Byrdbrain

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If Gronk isn't the All Pro tight end it is a traveshamockery.

It was in question going in to Sunday's game, I doubt it is anymore.
 

Harry Hooper

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I love the safety on the two point conversion slowing moving over towards Gronk like Brady’s not going to notice and is 3 seconds late anyways. That’s how my dog attacks squirrels and hasn’t got one in 10 years.
That's great.
 

simplyeric

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Regarding the 5 plays in the video, watching in real time during the game, my son and I both noticed that none of those 3 passes were very good. The third pass, the shoestring, if Brady hits Gronk even with the ball at his waist, it is a likely TD.
And then the block on the Lewis run, sure it was a good block. But also a very easy block. The DE shifted even further inside just before the snap, so all Gronky had to do was get in his way. He barely had to turn him in.
You're not thinking this one through.

If Brady hits Gronk for a TD there, that ends up leaving a bunch of extra time on the clock at the end of the game.

Do Your Strategery!
 

bakahump

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Doesnt the Money for Gronks bonus already count against the cap? I mean if not couldnt the team do this for a bunch of guys ("hey we will pay you 4 million for the year, Or 6 Million if your all pro." x 53) Then Spend all the way to the Cap, letting the "bonus money" come go over the cap.

I thought that they had to "account" for those possible payouts ("LTBE"??)

So even if they did this for all 53 guys and all 53 guys made all pro, they still couldnt spend over the cap. IOW A 4 million dollar salary with a 6 Million "all pro clause" would count for 6 Million against the cap.

Besides arent they still carrying over "excess" from the previous couple years? If your not willing to spend that excess on a 1200 yard season from Gronk (especially when Edelman is out) then when will you spend it?
 

InstaFace

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LTBE incentives count against the cap. I very much doubt that the reach goals in gronk's incentives were considered LTBE.

Regardless, that's just a matter of considering whether the Patriots are over/under the cap prior to the start of the season. The actual payouts will end up determining our cap number at the end of the year, on the basis of which we might get our rollover reduced or get fined or whatever.
 

Byrdbrain

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I think to be considered LTBE they had to have been reached the previous year and obviously none of these goals were.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Doesnt the Money for Gronks bonus already count against the cap? I mean if not couldnt the team do this for a bunch of guys ("hey we will pay you 4 million for the year, Or 6 Million if your all pro." x 53) Then Spend all the way to the Cap, letting the "bonus money" come go over the cap.

I thought that they had to "account" for those possible payouts ("LTBE"??)

So even if they did this for all 53 guys and all 53 guys made all pro, they still couldnt spend over the cap. IOW A 4 million dollar salary with a 6 Million "all pro clause" would count for 6 Million against the cap.

Besides arent they still carrying over "excess" from the previous couple years? If your not willing to spend that excess on a 1200 yard season from Gronk (especially when Edelman is out) then when will you spend it?
LTBE incentives count against the cap. I very much doubt that the reach goals in gronk's incentives were considered LTBE.

Regardless, that's just a matter of considering whether the Patriots are over/under the cap prior to the start of the season. The actual payouts will end up determining our cap number at the end of the year, on the basis of which we might get our rollover reduced or get fined or whatever.
These were all NLTBE incentives when he signed the contract (since he had not achieved them in the prior year) and thus will be counted against the 2018 cap as a debit. [Edit: Sorry, what byrd said.]

But as for baka's question about whether this is just "excess" cap money there's really no such thing. Every dollar they spend in 2018 is a dollar less they have to spend in future years since cap savings rolls forward. Just by way of example, let's say the cap for the next two years is $150,000,000. Let's say the Patriots will spend $145,000,000 on the cap in 2018 if Gronk doesn't make the extra $2.5 million. In that case, their adjusted cap number for 2019 would be $155,000,000. If, instead, he makes the incentive, the 2019 cap number would be $152,500,000.

They are already very low on space for 2018. The most significant contributors are Brady going up $8 million and Cooks's $8.5 million. They may extend Cooks to get relief, and Gronk could restructure. McCourty might restructure to save just a bit. But Gilmore and Hightower are not adjustable at this point. Solder comes off the books, but he won't be free to replace or re-sign.
 

bakahump

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Thanks Guys! Could have sworn that this was accounted for, but thanks for clarifying.

I still stand by the idea that a "little less future money" might be a something worth losing if Gronk helps this year (with a missing Edelman).
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Thanks Guys! Could have sworn that this was accounted for, but thanks for clarifying.

I still stand by the idea that a "little less future money" might be a something worth losing if Gronk helps this year (with a missing Edelman).
He's had an amazing year so far. If he gets to 1200, he will have delivered. I don't begrudge him the money.