2016-2017 NC Hoops: Heel Turn

DukeSox

absence hasn't made the heart grow fonder
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2005
11,742
Way off? He has 30+ recently and is averaging 17 on a team that has a ton of scorers. He has been injured all season and is still getting into shape and his injury was to his foot which is such a pivitol part of his game of driving and getting to the rim / line.

The tripping stuff is silly but I don't really care or see it as dirty. It is in the rule book as a violation, with a defined penalty, the same as a shooting foul, or lane violation, or traveling. It's a technical foul and you move along. If you do it again you get ejected. Players make decisions to violate the rules all the time in exchange for the established penalty and we don't define them as dirty. See the last 60 seconds of any close game. Dirty is Chris Paul punching people in the nuts all the time while at Wake Forest.

Allen's reaction last night was likely this:

K told him that to get your number retired at Duke you (in the modern era generally) need to win a national player of the year award (offensive or defensive) and win a natty (already done) or many ACCs (not done), and that it would be tough for GA to win a NPOY if he did that again. And in the spur of the moment he did it again and his realization of it and it's implications caused his emotional reaction.

K probably also told him his playing time would be diminished if it happened again not as a penalty but because it actively hurts the team with FTs and loss of possession. So that was hard for him as well.

GA will be his normal hard charging, get after it self for the ACC schedule.
 

garlan5

Member
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May 13, 2009
2,684
Virginia
I suspect the suspension came because the acc was going to step in. K wasnt going to do it. His arrogant answer last night tells me someone finally forced his hand. So unclassy
 

DukeSox

absence hasn't made the heart grow fonder
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2005
11,742
This will be quite a redemption tale that ESPN will eat up even more than this when he wins MOP
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
37,059
Hingham, MA
dukesox his shooting % is down 8%, as his is 3 pt shooting, his FT shooting is down almost 3%. His rebounds and assists are steady despite 5 mins per game less than last year so that's a positive I suppose. Turnovers at a similar level on a per minute basis.
 

Drocca

darrell foster wallace
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
17,585
Raleigh, NC
The essence of Duke's basketball is summed up in Grayson's Allen post-game press conference last night.
 

Sox and Rocks

Member
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Apr 16, 2013
5,826
Northern Colorado
Even odds Duke vs the field this year. $20 to the charity of your choosing, max 10 takers. Paid on day either Duke or every other team is eliminated. Who wants the field?
I'm in. I want my winnings to go to a mental health organization, which in all seriousness is a serious issue. Clearly, Allen has emotional problems.
 
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DukeSox

absence hasn't made the heart grow fonder
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2005
11,742
I'm in. I want my winnings to go to a mental health organization, which in all seriousness is a serious issue and something Allen clearly needs.
Familiarize yourself with true passion that comes from dedicating a lifetime to something instead of denigrating emotional outburst as a "mental health issue".
 

JShams

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2001
1,109
Familiarize yourself with true passion that comes from dedicating a lifetime to something instead of denigrating emotional outburst as a "mental health issue".
Because everyone else playing basketball at the collegiate level just began dedicating themselves to the sport last week. That's why they're not tripping people. If only they had dedicated their entire lives to this craft they would have the intensity to trip people and throw hissy fits on the bench afterwards.
 

Greg29fan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
20,484
NC
Way to bump that "scandal" thread to distract from your own problems. Donald Trump would be proud.
 

Sox and Rocks

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2013
5,826
Northern Colorado
Familiarize yourself with true passion that comes from dedicating a lifetime to something instead of denigrating emotional outburst as a "mental health issue".
What was your tent like? Did you ever have girls in there? Did you get pizza from coach kry-zewski and get to shake his hand?

I envy your passion.
 

DukeSox

absence hasn't made the heart grow fonder
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2005
11,742
What was your tent like? Did you ever have girls in there? Did you get pizza from coach kry-zewski and get to shake his hand?

I envy your passion.
Cool, minimize actual mental health patients. Pretty sensitive of you.
 

JShams

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
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Jul 3, 2001
1,109
What was your tent like? Did you ever have girls in there? Did you get pizza from coach kry-zewski and get to shake his hand?

I envy your passion.
Yeah, brah! He was totally bangin' chicks in that tent. Fuck yeah, brah!
 

Drocca

darrell foster wallace
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
17,585
Raleigh, NC
Way off? He has 30+ recently and is averaging 17 on a team that has a ton of scorers. He has been injured all season and is still getting into shape and his injury was to his foot which is such a pivitol part of his game of driving and getting to the rim / line.

The tripping stuff is silly but I don't really care or see it as dirty. It is in the rule book as a violation, with a defined penalty, the same as a shooting foul, or lane violation, or traveling. It's a technical foul and you move along. If you do it again you get ejected. Players make decisions to violate the rules all the time in exchange for the established penalty and we don't define them as dirty. See the last 60 seconds of any close game. Dirty is Chris Paul punching people in the nuts all the time while at Wake Forest.

Allen's reaction last night was likely this:

K told him that to get your number retired at Duke you (in the modern era generally) need to win a national player of the year award (offensive or defensive) and win a natty (already done) or many ACCs (not done), and that it would be tough for GA to win a NPOY if he did that again. And in the spur of the moment he did it again and his realization of it and it's implications caused his emotional reaction.

K probably also told him his playing time would be diminished if it happened again not as a penalty but because it actively hurts the team with FTs and loss of possession. So that was hard for him as well.

GA will be his normal hard charging, get after it self for the ACC schedule.
He doesn't see tripping players on purpose in a basketball game, after they have beaten you fairly, as dirty.

He is a poster that has, not once and in no part of this board, been worth discussing a single issue with.
 

DukeSox

absence hasn't made the heart grow fonder
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2005
11,742
Wait, what? I am making fun of duke fanatics like you and the abundance of socially awkward students with too much time on their hands and misplaced "passion."

Is reading comprehension not part of the duke curriculum?
I'm in. I want my winnings to go to a mental health organization, which in all seriousness is a serious issue and something Allen clearly needs.
I want my winnings to go to an Alzheimer's organization, which in all seriousness is a serious issue and something Sox and Rocks clearly needs.
 

DannyDarwinism

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 7, 2007
4,883
He doesn't see tripping players on purpose in a basketball game, after they have beaten you fairly, as dirty.
Nah, not dirty at all. In fact, I encourage DukeSox to intentionally trip guys at local pick-up games to demonstrate his point that it's the "same as a lane violation, or travelling." I'm sure they'll react accordingly.

I can't believe Bill Simmons didn't even have the dumbest basketball take this week.
 

Greg29fan

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Jul 14, 2005
20,484
NC
K wasn't going to jack diddly squat until the public and media backlash made it impossible not to do something. Allen also tripped Makai Mason from Yale twice in their game in the tournament, so that's four trips just last season that the "leader of men" just shrugged at.

Look at K's press conference last night - it was the defiance his mentor instilled in him all the way, right down to brow-beating the reporters who dared to question him.
 
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DukeSox

absence hasn't made the heart grow fonder
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2005
11,742
K wasn't going to jack diddly squat until the public and media backlash made it impossible not to do something. Allen also tripped Makai Mason from Yale twice in their first round game in the tournament, so that's four trips just last season that the "leader of men" just shrugged at.

Look at K's press conference last night - it was the defiance his mentor instilled in him all the way, right down to brow-beating the reporters who dared to question him.
Game finished at 9pm, suspension was announced at like 10am. Yeah, he really stood by his "do not suspend" ground a long time! He should have come out with a statement at 130am or something.

Here are quotes from K immediately following the game:

What allen did was "Unacceptable"

"That's a bad thing that he did tonight"

"pay attention to the fact that you did something wrong and you let your team down."

Totally shrugged at it!!!
 

Sox and Rocks

Member
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Apr 16, 2013
5,826
Northern Colorado
I want my winnings to go to an Alzheimer's organization, which in all seriousness is a serious issue and something Sox and Rocks clearly needs.
Even when you quote me, you do so out of context, shift the conversation with a red herring, and then try and bring it back to suit your purposes.

I'm glad Allen and Kryzewski engaged in their standard MO last night; otherwise, I wouldn't have stumbled into this thread and found my morning entertainment value from your Duke FANBOY posts.

And just so we're clear, as someone who has suffered on and off with mental illness for most of my adult life, I am keenly aware of how serious the issue is. All too aware, in fact. And as such, I know that the self-denial, lack of composure, social awkwardness, misplaced aggression, and hypersensitive nature exhibited by you and many other Dukies are not true mental illnesses.
 

PC Drunken Friar

Member
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Sep 12, 2003
14,542
South Boston
Game finished at 9pm, suspension was announced at like 10am. Yeah, he really stood by his "do not suspend" ground a long time! He should have come out with a statement at 130am or something.

Here are quotes from K immediately following the game:

What allen did was "Unacceptable"

"That's a bad thing that he did tonight"

"pay attention to the fact that you did something wrong and you let your team down."

Totally shrugged at it!!!
Yet, you really don't see it as dirty?
 

Sox and Rocks

Member
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Apr 16, 2013
5,826
Northern Colorado
K wasn't going to jack diddly squat until the public and media backlash made it impossible not to do something. Allen also tripped Makai Mason from Yale twice in their game in the tournament, so that's four trips just last season that the "leader of men" just shrugged at.

Look at K's press conference last night - it was the defiance his mentor instilled in him all the way, right down to brow-beating the reporters who dared to question him.
Clearly you're right, and the majority of us know this, but save your breath. Another poster had the same insight earlier, and DukeSox responded with an ad hominem ("you're an idiot") before modifying his post. Clearly he's too much of a homer to see the reality of the situation here.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
37,059
Hingham, MA
As a Duke fan, it was a dirty play, made worse by the fact that this is the 3rd incident. IMO Duke has handled it well by suspending him, as dukesox said, ~12 hours after the game finished. Also, I disagree with how some have characterized the press conference - K was very clear that what GA did was not acceptable. And GA seemed pretty damn contrite in his media Q&A as well. Add in the fact that they asked the Elon program for an opportunity to apologize in person, immediately after the game, and I don't see how the Duke program could have handled this any better.

Also, the one liners about Duke / the curriculum / the crazies / tenting have nothing to do with GA. I think we are better than that as a community.
 

DukeSox

absence hasn't made the heart grow fonder
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2005
11,742
Yet, you really don't see it as dirty?
Eh. It's not nice, but it's specifically in the rule book as a violation with a defined penalty. It's not dirty like Chris Paul punching people in the nuts or NFL players rolling up on ankles.
 

DukeSox

absence hasn't made the heart grow fonder
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2005
11,742
Even when you quote me, you do so out of context, shift the conversation with a red herring, and then try and bring it back to suit your purposes.

I'm glad Allen and Kryzewski engaged in their standard MO last night; otherwise, I wouldn't have stumbled into this thread and found my morning entertainment value from your Duke FANBOY posts.

And just so we're clear, as someone who has suffered on and off with mental illness for most of my adult life, I am keenly aware of how serious the issue is. All too aware, in fact. And as such, I know that the self-denial, lack of composure, social awkwardness, misplaced aggression, and hypersensitive nature exhibited by you and many other Dukies are not true mental illnesses.
So does Grayson have a mental illness? You wrote that he does.
 

Sox and Rocks

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Apr 16, 2013
5,826
Northern Colorado
So does Grayson have a mental illness? You wrote that he does.
All hyperbole aside, I don't know. I'm not a doctor, and even if I were I wouldn't be able to accurately diagnose him from his in-game behavior. Clearly, he lacks emotional intelligence, which at least one study has correlated with higher rates of mental illness (http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev.psych.59.103006.093646), so if I was a betting man, it seems likely (and of course I wouldn't bet on this, but that was the context of the post, after all: an actual bet on something else that will, hopefully, be a positive when your Dukies choke in the tournament).
 

Average Reds

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Sep 24, 2007
35,330
Southwestern CT
Reading through this thread, I guess Duke Derangement Syndrome is a thing ....

It's somewhat ridiculous to argue that what Allen did is not dirty. To me, it's almost the definition of dirty because it's so blatant. But more than that is the arrogance of Allen doing this - again - and then having a tantrum as if he's the victim. He's not, and he was finally slapped down for it. (Should have happened a long time ago, but good on Coach K for doing it now.)

But beyond this, some of the hyperbole about Allen is off the charts. I mean, this is (like almost every elite, DI athlete) a pampered kid who has been revered for his exceptional athletic prowess from about age 8 on. For him to be an arrogant ass is about the least surprising thing ever. To imply that he might be mentally ill is a bit of a reach, to say the least.

He's an immature, narcissistic kid who is overly competitive and does dumb things from time to time. He'll be just fine.
 

DukeSox

absence hasn't made the heart grow fonder
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Dec 22, 2005
11,742
Yep. And I think his freakout was his recognition that he was a fucking idiot for doing it again in the heat of the moment and knowing what was about to happen to him from k and the media. See my post above about NPOY implications.
 

rhopkins2323

New Member
Mar 14, 2010
111
We kicked a starter off the team in 2015 and won the natty brah!
Wait, so you're saying Duke was better with Rasheed Sulaimon? Coach K is a smart guy. He knew that team was better off without a mediocre player that cried about his PT
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
37,059
Hingham, MA
Average Reds - totally agree it was dirty. But I don't think any of us really have any idea what the tantrum was about. He's clearly an emotional guy and he may have some demons upstairs. We just don't know. To declare it arrogance is a bit reckless IMO. I get that the public perception of Duke is entitled rich white kids - and there are a hell of a lot of those at Duke, possibly/probably including Allen - but I don't think his outburst was because he thought the refs jobbed him. It looked far more to me like a guy who was extremely upset at the situation and couldn't control his emotions.

I get it. Everyone hates Duke and relishes when something like this happens. I am no different when it comes to teams like the MFY or Colts or whatever. But I think Duke has handled this well, and I think Allen has some emotional / maturity issues he has to deal with, if not something bigger.
 

garlan5

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May 13, 2009
2,684
Virginia
Wait, so you're saying Duke was better with Rasheed Sulaimon? Coach K is a smart guy. He knew that team was better off without a mediocre player that cried about his PT
Exactly this. That was a move to make duke and k look good in the media. Also some others pointed out Allen tripped more than 3
 

DukeSox

absence hasn't made the heart grow fonder
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Dec 22, 2005
11,742
Yeah because you always want a guy who goes in the NBA draft to leave, leaving you with 8 scholarship players

You guys are freaking nuts
 

deythur

New Member
What I don't get in all of this is why when a player elbows someone intentionally everyone isn't calling for a suspension. Its more malicious and the intent to injure is greater or even some of the hard fouls when attempting to stop an easy basket.

I know he is a repeat offender but he's a repeat offender of something stupid not trying to injure someone. The outrage is because its Duke and the suspension is because of the public outrage. K may have sat him a game but I don't think he would have suspended him and he shouldn't have.
 

BigSoxFan

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May 31, 2007
47,094
What I don't get in all of this is why when a player elbows someone intentionally everyone isn't calling for a suspension. Its more malicious and the intent to injure is greater or even some of the hard fouls when attempting to stop an easy basket.
I agree, Shelden Williams and his constant intentional elbows were very dirty but let's not try to deflect the issue at hand here. Intentional tripping is very bush league and we've all played enough hoops to know this. You do that on the playground and you're going to get your ass kicked or worse. The Duke factor is certainly at play but let's not try to pretend that it's the only reason this is getting a lot of play. That's just silly.

I don't know what Allen's deal is but his breakdown was flat out awkward to watch. Hope he gets it straightened out because he's a fun player to watch but now he's marked the way Draymond is. Anything that looks even remotely intentional will be dealt with harshly.
 

ehaz

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Sep 30, 2007
4,948
Definitely dirty, but it seems more instinctual than anything. Like a less-gross Luis Suarez moment.
 

deythur

New Member
I agree, Shelden Williams and his constant intentional elbows were very dirty but let's not try to deflect the issue at hand here. Intentional tripping is very bush league and we've all played enough hoops to know this. You do that on the playground and you're going to get your ass kicked or worse. The Duke factor is certainly at play but let's not try to pretend that it's the only reason this is getting a lot of play. That's just silly.

I don't know what Allen's deal is but his breakdown was flat out awkward to watch. Hope he gets it straightened out because he's a fun player to watch but now he's marked the way Draymond is. Anything that looks even remotely intentional will be dealt with harshly.
Agreed the breakdown is he most concerning part. Its hard to like him after that. I don't think the trip is dirty, its instinctual. Even if its not, its still not real dirty. The long term effects are what concern me. He really seemed like he just lost it. Hopefully he can reign it in.
 

BigSoxFan

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May 31, 2007
47,094
Agreed the breakdown is he most concerning part. Its hard to like him after that. I don't think the trip is dirty, its instinctual. Even if its not, its still not real dirty. The long term effects are what concern me. He really seemed like he just lost it. Hopefully he can reign it in.
So, if someone intentionally tripped one of your blue chip players as they went up for a dunk, leading to an awkward fall and a broken wrist, you wouldn't consider that to be a dirty play?

I guess I just don't get your position on this. What Allen is doing is very dirty. Just because the recent examples have been relatively benign don't change that. At not point is a bball player ever taught to trip an opponent so how can it be "instinctual"? It's a completely foreign play in this sport.
 

garlan5

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May 13, 2009
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Virginia
It wouldn't seem as dirty if this were a one time thing like the moment frustration. But this is one of very many things dirty he does
 

DukeSox

absence hasn't made the heart grow fonder
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Dec 22, 2005
11,742
So, if someone intentionally tripped one of your blue chip players as they went up for a dunk, leading to an awkward fall and a broken wrist, you wouldn't consider that to be a dirty play?

I guess I just don't get your position on this. What Allen is doing is very dirty. Just because the recent examples have been relatively benign don't change that. At not point is a bball player ever taught to trip an opponent so how can it be "instinctual"? It's a completely foreign play in this sport.
Then why does the rule book specifically mention this action if it's so "foreign"? It's not at all - it's something you're not allowed to do and it comes with a defined penalty.

Hockey has a rule against tripping and it's a two minute penalty. We don't tweak out when that happens.
 

DukeSox

absence hasn't made the heart grow fonder
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Dec 22, 2005
11,742
The essence of Duke's basketball is summed up in Grayson's Allen post-game press conference last night.

40 point lead, defeated team is dribbling out the final seconds of the game