2015 Broncos-Peyton's Retirement Party Sunday 1/24/16 3PM ET
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Deflategate has changed my perspective on this. In the past I would have been happy to see an important, Gronk-injuring member of a conference rival get suspended, but now fuck Roger. Roger could suspend Kim Jong-un and I would assume it was a draconian overreach of power and capricious tiny-dick-swinging.Ed Hillel said:
Ravens - Broncos probably the best game on the schedule this week. I'm not convinced that Pey Pey is a good fit for Kubiak's offense, and if there is any team that should know how to defend it, it's the Ravens. Broncos are helped out if Jernigan can't go, but the Ravens do have some depth there and Carl Davis, their 3rd round pick, has looked like an immediate contributor all through the pre-season. Also, the Ravens are going to crowd the box and see if Denver can beat them over the top.
The bettor in me would take the Ravens and the points but it should be a great game to watch.
What do other people think?
The bettor in me would take the Ravens and the points but it should be a great game to watch.
What do other people think?
I think both offenses are going to struggle. Denver''s defense is really good and Baltimore doesn't seem to have the weapons to exploit their soft spots (LBs in coverage, maybe running inside with Knighton gone).
The Ravens have maybe the best run-blocking guard tandem in the league. Forsett's not really a hammer, but if Denver's DL can't defend the run I'm pretty sure Baltimore can exploit it.Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Yup that's right. I was mainly thinking about the passing game and then just had that Knighton thought at the end. They may well be able to run effectively between the tackles and will probably need to do so, because I think they'll struggle when throwing.Super Nomario said:
Denver's D is le-fucking-git. Baltimore didn't have a lot of offensive weapons but the DEN front seven were in the backfield early and often.
On the flip side, the Bronco offense was pretty pedestrian. I wonder if Kubs is slow playing the league with the idea of opening the O down the road. That said, it was amusing to see Peyton scamper around on the handful of designed roll outs.
On the flip side, the Bronco offense was pretty pedestrian. I wonder if Kubs is slow playing the league with the idea of opening the O down the road. That said, it was amusing to see Peyton scamper around on the handful of designed roll outs.
NBC started the highlights of thst game with the two deep throws that manning over threw. I know that game was a snooze fest but those highlights are short. They then had both Dungy and Rodney comment that his arm strength must be fine because he over threw those passesDrewDawg said:
All. Is. Well.
I was at the game today. Manning looked awful. Short armed everything and when he went long had to put everything he had to get it 30-40 yards downfield.
He's fringe-cooked. Can still hit the five yarders but anything deeper is a complete guess. Ravens should have won that game.
He's fringe-cooked. Can still hit the five yarders but anything deeper is a complete guess. Ravens should have won that game.
What was the vibe in the stadium? Did people generally realize? Happy denial?H78 said:
It had to be kind of shocking to see.
Around me the vibe wasn't too great, but I think that's because I was wearing a Brady jersey and holding a sign that said "I'm lost can you point me to the Super Bowl?"
But when you talked to them about Manning, you could hear the denial in their voices...but they know deep down he's probably cooked too. They get the game and they know if he can't threaten the defense downfield their season is probably over.
But when you talked to them about Manning, you could hear the denial in their voices...but they know deep down he's probably cooked too. They get the game and they know if he can't threaten the defense downfield their season is probably over.
I have to admit, it felt good to instantaneously shut down about 50 Broncos fans around me when they gave me shit about deflategate and I responded "the Pats cheated, just like any real, longtime Broncos fan knows the Broncos cheated the salary cap at the end of the Elway years."
Silence. Seriously, dead silence. They almost forgot about that themselves.
Silence. Seriously, dead silence. They almost forgot about that themselves.
Manning looked qualitatively terrible last year, too, but he was still mostly his usual awesome self. He'd throw these ugly, wobbly, slow ducks that would hit his receivers perfectly in stride just inches from the defender. He's earned the horror movie villain treatment from me; I won't believe he's dead until the final credits roll. Sure, he sucked today, but Flacco sucked worse and no one's like, "Joe Flacco is done!" It's obvious with Flacco that it was just a crappy game, and with Manning it seems likely to me that it was just a crappy game, too.
Uh, you know that's a bad comparison for multiple reasons.Super Nomario said:
He looked terrible and then by the end of the year his results were mediocre. The offense is less stacked now and the line is still a huge question -- if his first read didn't get open he was in trouble all day. Not every team has guys who can cover both Thomas and Sanders but it's more teams than could cover those two plus J Thomas and Welker (Welker looked bad last year but still had 49 catches).
That said, they didn't get anywhere running either, so that hurts. The line play is big.
Chuckle. The game was a complete shit show. The fact that Baltimore couldn't do squat when Manning kept going three and out consistently is a pretty big indictment of what Harbaugh's got going on over there( can anyone say Marc Trestman? ). As for Peyton the running game was completely bottled up because the Ravens had zero respect Manning could hit Thomas or Sanders more than 15 yards down field. He routinely overthrew or under-threw them.soxhop411 said:
A friend asked me during the game how much longer I thought Manning had and I threw out this year and next. After seeing him today get completely rescued by his D I think he's no doubt done after this year.
I caught most of the game on the radio but managed to catch 4-5 Ravens drives on TV. If he defense can play like that consistently a C+ Manning is probably good enough. That said, their running game was completely underwhelming.DrewDawg said:
Look, this game had everyone a Pats fan would want. Two formerly strong challengers looking like offensively. Season ending injuries to key douche bags. And more noodle arming from Peyton than I apparently noticed.
The DEN-KC Thursday night game should be very interesting.
Toe Nash said:
I agree. Manning has been throwing ducks for some time but there was a massive difference (both in terms of arm strength and in terms of results) between his first and second half performance last year. The big question for this year is whether he will perform closer to the first half guy or the second half guy. I think the jury is still out but this game makes me lean toward the latter for the moment, which is great, because I don't see that guy doing much damage in the playoffs against good teams.
Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
What I saw of him in the preseason was more this second half guy too. I think there has to be a real chance he's done. The great players can gut out a series here or a play there and even occasionally a game, but I am of the view this is his last year and it might not be a great one. I'm sure some said this of Brady last year of course.
Denver has now faced the two toughest defenses it will see this year and are 2-0.DukeSox said:
I'll take the over.
Denver's offensive troubles are mostly due to the OLine. Things got a bit better in tonight's second half, but they have a lot of work to do on that OL.
Manning has declined from his peak, for sure. But if the OL can get in sync and the RBs/TEs get better at blitz pick ups, the offense will be pretty good, IMO.
Combine that with a lights out D and wins will come.
Manning has declined from his peak, for sure. But if the OL can get in sync and the RBs/TEs get better at blitz pick ups, the offense will be pretty good, IMO.
Combine that with a lights out D and wins will come.
86spike said:
Absolutely. Two games in a row where, against top notch fronts, Peyton was under siege in a 2 count. I'm thinking that the transition away from "Peyton's" offense to Kubiak's is also a variable here. It seems like the reins were handed back to Manning and all of a sudden, the ball was out faster and the o line protection was better coordinated. They have a week + to clean things up.
He can still throw the outs like a boss when he can step up. Maybe not the go routes...
Crazy game last night.
Very thoughtful take on Manning/the Denver O by Barnwell.
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/sing-of-arms-and-the-man-why-the-broncos-cant-keep-leaning-on-peyton-manning/?ex_cid=story-twitter
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/sing-of-arms-and-the-man-why-the-broncos-cant-keep-leaning-on-peyton-manning/?ex_cid=story-twitter
You are correct about the problems being mostly due to the OLine. However, I think waiting for the OL to "get in sync" is wishful thinking. The bottom line is the OLine just isn't very good. They were a weak link last year, too, and Elway did little to nothing to upgrade the position. Evan Mathis, who is good (though not as good as he used to be) kind of fell in Denver's lap right before the season started. Until that point, Elway had brought in a few rejects after losing Orlando Franklin, who was probably their best player last year after he moved back to guard. Losing Clady clearly hurts, too.86spike said:
In some ways, given the lack of a running game and the pressure he's faced, it's remarkable Manning has played as well as he has. Still, though, the Oline's issues are why they haven't been able to run the ball and why teams are blitzing regularly. This will continue, and since Manning can't throw deep to mitigate this, I suspect the offense will continue to struggle all year. Teams can play tight coverage and stack the box, and the Broncos don't seem capable of consistently beating such defense.
Denver's defense, though, and their kicker will keep them in most, if not all, games.
Barnwell makes the mistake of thinking that since he overthrew receivers his arm isn't the problem and tries to separate "arm strength" from accuracy. This is stupid. It's all part and parcel of the same problem. If he can't fire passes into tight windows then defenders can gamble more. If he can't trust his arm and his mechanics then he's going to be less accurate. If he needs to step into throws that he used to make with a defender on him, that's a problem even if he can still technically make the throw. And it all goes back to him being really old and beat up.MarcSullivaFan said:
Everything adds up. Just because he can still throw far doesn't mean that his arm strength isn't an issue. And just because the o-line is bad doesn't mean that Manning isn't also hurting the cause.
The law first two games are similar to how Peyton's Denver career started when they were running a constrained (Mike McCoy, I think) offense. Once they handed the keys to Peyton it became much more formidable. If will be interesting to see where Kubs take the offense from here.
On the one hand, the run heavy, play action/boot offense is sound in theory. Ideally, you limit Peyton's workload, and you have the "super offense" in your pocket if/when you need it. That's kind of what happened in the second half last night. The problem is that Peyton is a terrible, terrible fit for Kub's offense. He is not Elway--he can't scamper around on the boots, he mostly can't make the D pay with Rob Smith-esque crossing routes and, hell, he even looks slow getting the bal to the RB for stretch runs. It would be one thing if they could get the ground game going but, as others have mentioned, his O-line isn't great to begin with. His self sack tendency also gives the pass rush a quarter second advantage that is meaningful given a the offense's reliably on medium-developing plays.
Honestly, I think the Broncos would be best off giving him the keys now. Yeah, he can't bomb it down he field or even to the wides (he could get DT killed this year) but I think he could still be a plus version of Chad Pennington. Letting him run the O would also protect him since he can get the ball out faster. The risk is that he wears down like last year. But the current offense is going to knock him out of games faster. I'd roll the dice, hope you can rack up some wins while he weather is warm to snap at least a home playoff game if not a bye, and hand December off to Osweiler. As crazy as that sounds, I can't see Petyon playing all 16 games if they're like the last two. Elway couldn't his last year either.
On the one hand, the run heavy, play action/boot offense is sound in theory. Ideally, you limit Peyton's workload, and you have the "super offense" in your pocket if/when you need it. That's kind of what happened in the second half last night. The problem is that Peyton is a terrible, terrible fit for Kub's offense. He is not Elway--he can't scamper around on the boots, he mostly can't make the D pay with Rob Smith-esque crossing routes and, hell, he even looks slow getting the bal to the RB for stretch runs. It would be one thing if they could get the ground game going but, as others have mentioned, his O-line isn't great to begin with. His self sack tendency also gives the pass rush a quarter second advantage that is meaningful given a the offense's reliably on medium-developing plays.
Honestly, I think the Broncos would be best off giving him the keys now. Yeah, he can't bomb it down he field or even to the wides (he could get DT killed this year) but I think he could still be a plus version of Chad Pennington. Letting him run the O would also protect him since he can get the ball out faster. The risk is that he wears down like last year. But the current offense is going to knock him out of games faster. I'd roll the dice, hope you can rack up some wins while he weather is warm to snap at least a home playoff game if not a bye, and hand December off to Osweiler. As crazy as that sounds, I can't see Petyon playing all 16 games if they're like the last two. Elway couldn't his last year either.
Sox and Rocks said:
It may turn out that the OL isn't very good, but last year's struggles have zero to bear on this year. It's an entirely new group of starters (the only guy starting now who was starting in last season's playoffs is Luis Vasquez and he's moved from T to G), new coaches and a new scheme (Zone Blocking).
The unit is young as hell and small (which serves you well in the ZBS, but can get you murdered against big bodied DL's like Baltimore and KC). They played well together in the preseason, but those games didn't feature legit defensive game planning, so they may not be predicative. I don't think the jury is in yet and while they may never play well, I'm not ready to write them off just yet.
I seem to recall a lot of questions about NE's line early last year too and they wound up gelling into a successful unit by midseason.
We'll see!
I think that's all right on by Rook05, hard to design a worse QB for Kubiak's offense than an old Peyton Manning and he's taking a lot of shots for a guy that usually doesnt get hit regardless of line strength because he makes good decisions and gets the ball out fast. I think Kubiak is a terrible head coach, so dont have a lot of confidence in him making the right call here. They're better going off to the offense they ran towards the end of last year, run heavy but still more traditional Manning style. He's not going to be the guy he was in 2004 or 2013, but he's stlll the strength of that offense and the defense is very good.
Rook05 said:
I don't know--his first 2 games in Denver he completed more than 67% of his passes, he's about 10 points below that now. In his first Denver game it only took him 26 throws to get up over 250 yards. It took an additional 20 throws last night.
His loss of arm strength is likely negating the touch he has on the deep balls--he can't drop them in like he used to. He really has to use a lot to get it out there. It's not that the offense is unfamiliar--he's just not hitting. Only 4 times in the past 10 seasons has he gone 2 games in a row with a completion percentage at 60% or below (and actually, if you include the postseason game, he's now done it 4 straight games). But this time there appear to be structural issues, not just a bad game.
It'll be interesting to see if they tweak the offense to account for it.
I think they have to tweak the offense but they really don't want to do it. Elway brought in Kubiak to recreate the offense when he won the Super Bowl. Unfortunately for him, his offensive line is nowhere close to the line they had in the late 90's and Manning's lack of mobility and arm strength kill any plays that require any type of bootleg.DrewDawg said:
DukeSox said:
They could very well start 6-0 - @DET, MIN, @OAK, and @CLE - and still have to play OAK and @CHI. They may not win a lot of games after their bye week, but if they start 6-0, they don't have to in order to get in their playoffs.
And their defense, assuming it stays healthy, will keep them in a lot of games. Maybe it's just because it was the first game back, but the Ravens OL graded out pretty highly in 2014 and the Broncos made them (especially Rick Wagner) look silly.
Yeah, this is 100% on Elway. He brought in Kubiak to run Kubiak's offense; there's no point in bringing in Kubiak to do what Manning has always done. It's looked ugly so far, but we'll see in a month or two; maybe there's a happy middle. If the Kubiak / Manning marriage fails, that's on Elway for putting it together.Just a bit outside said:
One addition to this:Super Nomario said:
I believe that Elway made the move to Kubiak with more of a mind towards 2016+ than toward this year.
Bringing back Manning was likely just too tempting to pass up on knowing that there's still a chance that he has just enough gas left in the tank to make one last deep run.
But Kubiak, barring a disaster, is the guy Elway wants to handle the post-Manning rebuild/restructure effort.
If Peyton is a bad fit his year, I don't think Elway will lose a ton of sleep over it since the Manning window is most likely closed anyway (at least as far as a SB win is concerned).
KC has a tremendous D-line, but the Denver line looked truly terrible last night. Roughly as bad as the Patroots' line at the beginning of last season, if not worse. If you're going to have that weakness going into the season, why not stick with a guy whose primary strength remains quick reads and throws?
That's not the only reason, imo. There is a lot to be said for consistency of play/jelling of the entire group. Denver's line is not used to playing together, and if they can field one cohesive unit out there on a regular basis it should help at least a little. By the time that happens, though, who knows how Manning will be physically. He's going to get worse, not better.There is no Rev said:
The idea that Stork fixed the line is too simplistic of an explanation, in my opinion. They went 6-1 in the games Stork played 20 or fewer snaps, including the playoff wins over Baltimore and Indy and wins over Buffalo and the Jets in Weeks 6 and 7. I think it was more about the guys they had (the line, but also Gronk, LaFell, and Brady) playing better than the insertion of Stork / anyone new.There is no Rev said:
Denver will try things if their OL doesn't look better in a couple weeks. Mathis is still shaking off some rust, and they also have options in Max Garcia (their original plan at C), 2014 3rd-rounder Michael Schofield, or veteran Shelley Smith. Whatever works will look like reinforcements in hindsight, too.There is no Rev said:
Stork wasn't preordained our starting center in 2014; he was a fourth-round rookie and a healthy scratch Week 1. They tried a lot of things in the first four weeks - combinations of Cannon, Devey, and Fleming at G with Connolly or Wendell at C - before hitting on the Stork / Wendell combo at C / G. But a lot of the offensive improvement was Solder playing better, Gronk shaking off rust, Brady getting on the same page with LaFell, etc.
Super Nomario said:
I think we've been through this before but Stork was the starting center early in training camp and then got hurt and missed about a month of camp. I think Stork at center was plan A all along.
We'll never know. They were returning all five OL starters before the Mankins trade. At any rate, even if they thought Stork might be the answer before he got hurt, he obviously didn't have any kind of track record to suggest he was going to pull things together - that's a hindsight claim (and in my opinion, a dubious one).Shelterdog said:
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