2014 Penn State Football - The Beginning of a New Era

terrynever

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Yeah, it's ironic that the scandal may have helped Penn State transition from the Paterno years in ways we never could have imagined. Five years ago, my friends in town were worried that Jay Paterno would be the next head coach. That's how bad the culture was with Joe. Instead, we get BOB for two years, get a QB who never would have come to Penn State, and if he did would never have received the coaching that BOB gave him, and now we have a lights-out recruiter who might take this program back to the Top 10.
 

terrynever

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SoxJox said:
For shame...such culture.
The Jay Paterno thing was way out of control. You know the players almost revolted against him at halftime of a game in 2011? It's in the book "Fourth And Long..." by some guy from Michigan whose name escapes me. You know it.
 

SoxJox

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terrynever said:
The Jay Paterno thing was way out of control. You know the players almost revolted against him at halftime of a game in 2011? It's in the book "Fourth And Long..." by some guy from Michigan whose name escapes me. You know it.
John Bacon.  Of course Jay delivered an expertly crafted reply..."focus on kids...Bacon never talked to me...would have been more than willing to clear up any misunderstandings...yada yada."
 
In reality, quite simply, Jay Paterno had been in way over his head for some time, if he had ever been treading water at all - thanks to the many talents surrounding him.  While it may have been reported - or more accurately wildly speculated that Jay was positioning himself to assume the reins upon his father's retirement (death  not being considered in the cards at the time), the university quite simply was never going to let that happen.  It was a fantasy bred solely within Jay's mind.
 

Fred in Lynn

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SumnerH said:
 
In this case, the sanctions were from the NCAA rather than an organization of the type you postulate.  The NCAA's mission is much broader than that.
Don't leave me hanging. Translate "broader than that" into a tangible legal basis for applying punitive measures for a non-competition matter, without running to the get-out-of-jail-free card of 'Instituional Control.'
 

SumnerH

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Fred in Lynn said:
Don't leave me hanging. Translate "broader than that" into a tangible legal basis for applying punitive measures for a non-competition matter, without running to the get-out-of-jail-free card of 'Instituional Control.'
 
The NCAA isn't a government body, there's no "tangible legal basis" for its rules.  It can set the rules that it wants (within fairly broad legal limitations), and schools can decide whether or not they want to be members.
 
In particular, it was not originally founded "solely to oversee competition" as you claimed; student safety was one of the primary driving factors behind its foundation, and there are plenty of legal requirements that they must follow that aren't solely to oversee competition (e.g. Title IX).  And it's never claimed to have a limited scope, much as you might want it to.  In particular, it is written NCAA policy that:
 


Institutions’ athletics departments must:
• Comply with campus authorities and ensure that all athletics 
staff, coaches, administrators and student-athletes maintain 
a hostile-free environment for all student-athletes regardless 
of gender or sexual orientation; know and follow campus 
protocol for reporting incidents of sexual violence; report 
immediately any suspected sexual violence to appropriate 
campus offices for investigation and adjudication; 
• Educate all student-athletes, coaches and staff about 
sexual violence prevention, intervention and response;
• Assure compliance with all federal and applicable state 
regulations related to sexual violence prevention and 
response; and
• Cooperate with but not manage, direct, control or interfere 
with college or university investigations into allegations 
of sexual violence ensuring that investigations involving 
student-athletes and athletics department staff are 
managed in the same manner as all other students and 
staff on campus.
 
In fact, they cite a DOEd letter of interpretation on Title IX in the resolution that adopted the above, though there's nothing that I know of that would stop them from adopting such a policy even if it weren't legally required (or having a policy stronger than the minimum legally required):


WHEREAS the U.S. Department of Education Office for Civil 
Rights has issued guidance related to sexual harassment, 
bullying and violence against all students under Title IX of the 
Education Amendments of 1972 (Title IX), 20 U.S.C. §§ 1681 
et seq, which applies to all educational activities, including 
athletics programs, of higher education institutions receiving 
federal financial assistance and which states that sexual 
harassment includes rape, sexual assault, sexual battery, 
sexual coercion and gender-based harassment.
 

Fred in Lynn

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Ex post facto, sumner.  Here's the 2009-10 version (i.e., the pre-Sandusky days) of the NCAA bylaws:  http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D110.pdf
 
Not one mention of sexual abuse or rape in the entire document.  Here are the limits of the discussion on "Institutional Control": 
 
It is the responsibility of each member institution to control its intercollegiate athletics program in compliance with the rules and regulations of the Association. The institution’s president or chancellor is responsible for the administration of all aspects of the athletics program, including approval of the budget and audit of all expenditures. The institution’s responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program includes responsibility for the actions of its staff members and for the actions of any other individual or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution.
 
That painfully nebulous article of the NCAA's constitution circa issuance of the sanctions is all that exists to justify the enforcement of the case by the NCAA against the PSU football program.  I think it is better to make the argument that centers around the fact that the legalities of the matter are beside the point because a consent decree was signed.  In other words, the NCAA was out of its realm in making a connection between the findings of fact and violation of the football program to their bylaws, but so what because the respondants were so weak-willed that they signed it.  Too bad for them.
 

Fred in Lynn

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SumnerH said:
 
The NCAA isn't a government body, there's no "tangible legal basis" for its rules.  It can set the rules that it wants (within fairly broad legal limitations), and schools can decide whether or not they want to be members.
 
To address this specifically, it is, as our friend Average Reds somewhat fairly described something I wrote yesterday, horse shit.  No programs decide to cede from the NCAA.  It's an unexecutable, impractical option.  I realize I'm repeating myself in short order, but the NCAA used institutional control as a basis for a case that disappeared with the signing of the CD.  It is and always was a matter for the criminal and civil courts.
 

SumnerH

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Fred in Lynn said:
Ex post facto, sumner.  Here's the 2009-10 version (i.e., the pre-Sandusky days) of the NCAA bylaws
 
The assertion being discussed was much broader than the Sandusky case.  For a less incendiary and longer standing example, see the section of the constitution that you posted on academics.
 
Fred in Lynn said:
 
To address this specifically, it is, as our friend Average Reds somewhat fairly described something I wrote yesterday, horse shit.  No programs decide to cede from the NCAA.  It's an unexecutable, impractical option. 
 
This just reinforces that member schools value the benefits of NCAA membership more than they dislike the costs, as it is completely voluntary (and it's hardly unanimous; a minority of accredited colleges and universities are NCAA members).  If you want access to their tournaments and viewership prestige and such, you have to play by their rules.
 

Fred in Lynn

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SumnerH said:
 
The assertion being discussed was much broader than the Sandusky case.  For a less incendiary and longer standing example, see the section of the constitution that you posted on academics.
I'm not following. Academic performance of participating athletes is a competition matter. Its existence in the manual specifies the policies and practices. What was the specific guidance that justified the sanctions in regard to what occurred in 2001 and after? Even if the modifications to the bylaws put in place after the fact were present in 2011, it's not clear how sanctions to the football program were justified. Those modifications require that allegations of sexual assault, etc. be reported. McQueary did that. Paterno did that. They told Curley, who oversaw all athletics. Wouldn't a hypothetical set of sanctions have to be issued to the entire athletic department? The entire enforcement matter was ham-handed, arbitrary, and capricious.
 
This just reinforces that member schools value the benefits of NCAA membership more than they dislike the costs, as it is completely voluntary (and it's hardly unanimous; a minority of accredited colleges and universities are NCAA members).  If you want access to their tournaments and viewership prestige and such, you have to play by their rules.
Come on. Member schools have as many options as North Koreans. Do you mean the NCAA that reinforced its moral certainty by lifting any and all restrictions on the football program? They did this why? What exactly are their rules anyway? Cops around here don't seem to have a clue.
 

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Fred in Lynn said:
I'm not following. Academic performance of participating athletes is a competition matter. Its existence in the manual specifies the policies and practices. What was the specific guidance that justified the sanctions in regard to what occurred in 2001 and after? Even if the modifications to the bylaws put in place after the fact were present in 2011, it's not clear how sanctions to the football program were justified. Those modifications require that allegations of sexual assault, etc. be reported. McQueary did that. Paterno did that. They told Curley, who oversaw all athletics. Wouldn't a hypothetical set of sanctions have to be issued to the entire athletic department? The entire enforcement matter was ham-handed, arbitrary, and capricious.
 
Academc performance is as tangential to athletic competition as sexual assault/harassment controls are.
 
I'm not going to hazard a guess on the specific guidance question, it's outside the realm of what I was objecting to (which was that the NCAA has never limited themselves strictly to competitive matters, they've always had a greedy reach on what they try to control).
 
(In the hypothetical, they probably should have gone against the athletic department, unless the legitimate conclusion was that the football program in particular interfered with the investigation, and the fact that the NCAA was ham-handed and arbitrary is one of the least surprising things ever).
 

Fred in Lynn said:
Come on. Member schools have as many options as North Koreans.
 
Now who's spewing bullshit?  Try to leave North Korea and you get killed.  Decide to play football outside of the NCAA and you play football outside of the NCAA--you don't get to play bowl games and viewership and revenues will suffer significantly if you do it unilaterally, but there are plenty of schools that do it.  And if at some point the major football programs decided to, they could probably plausibly organize a lucrative non-NCAA schedule and tournament (the idea that the SEC/PAC/Big 12/Big 10 might organize a 64-team superleague independent of the NCAA was certainly discussed seriously here during recent reorganizations). There'd be some pain in change, for sure.  But there's no legal barrier to it.  Schools stay in the NCAA because the benefits of doing so vastly outweigh the drawbacks.
 

Fred in Lynn

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You followed a critique of an analogy with a hypothetical scenario that had never occurred and has little chance of ever occurring. That's rather bold, man. How many major programs have willfully left the NCAA because they didn't like the hand they were dealt? About as many people as leave North Korea.

The NCAA hung it a hat on a nebulous bylaw of its constitution. If you believe that the findings of fact in a case that would have withstood judicial review of whatever type, then you're a braver hypothetical attorney than I. The apparent lack of morality by Paterno, et. al drove the train. The ends (heavy sanctions) justified the means (following deliberate protocols of review). Lucky for the NCAA that the BOT only cared about its image and rolled over. The verifiable findings were weak and vaguely connected to NCAA rules.

(Again, this is academic and moot due to the signed CD, although the lifted sanctions say something about the strength of that case.)
 

SoxJox

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Sumner and Fil, the debate is moot.  To divine the rationale for the punishment on the basis of the bylaws is a quixotic quest.  There is no definitive answer. Sumner probably comes closest by placing the punishment in the context of the collective and individual NCAA membership's willingness to stay in the fold.  
 
The NCAA has wielded largely unchallenged power for decades.  Although there are notable exceptions, the members, by and large, have not sought to challenge individual rulings or collective general activity by the NCAA because they haven't seen it as being worth it or in their best interests.  Besides, most recognized that the very nature of membership - generally - has no legal foundation (several court cases notwithstanding) upon which to base a challenge.  
 
In this sense, NCAA "challenges" are not legally based, but  come closer to being mere pleas for mercy.  
 
And Fil, you have it right as well when you point out that "the respondants were so weak-willed that they signed it.  Too bad for them."  That dialogue has probably played out in the backrooms much more often than the general public knows.
 

canderson

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SoxJox

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Here's a list of their current targets.  Currently, only 1 bonafide 5* in their "Top Target" category: Minkah Fitzpatrick  who has committed to Alabama. 4 others in the "Interested" category.   I suspect Penn State is working 4* DT Tim Settles (Manassas, VA) hard.  And I would imagine 4* OLB Ricky DeBerry (Mechanicsville, VA) could be possible.
 
Maybe they'll sneak in and pluck up 3-star TE Nakia Griffin (Tenafly, NJ) for good measure.
 

SoxJox

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A "local" boy - Redshirt Sophomore walk-on QB D.J. Crook, of Barnstable HS - made his debut in relief of Christian Hackenberg the second half.  6 for 9 / 57 yds / 1 TD.  I didn't see the game, but from all accounts he handled himself very well.
 
He got the nod over Freshman Michael O-Connor (signed as top-5 QB in country last year) and Trace McSorley.  Likely that Franklin is hoping Hack stays healthy and he can save a redshirt for O'Connor.
 

canderson

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So today was one of the more absolute Penn State beat downs in recent history. NW should've had an extra 20 or so points. They're gonna get killed with that offensive line and Hackenburg looks extremely mediocre or worse because of it, he'll be lucky to last the season given all the hits he's taking.

A bye and then at Michigan. Michigan maybe will have stopped giving up be then.
 

terrynever

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It will take two years to develop the linemen needed to compete with even the Big Ten elite. Good news is Sterling Jenkins, the 6-foot-8, 305-pound OT from Pittsburgh, will enroll in January and have one spring practice under his belt before his frosh season begins. But that's only one guy. They need to get bigger and better, gain experience for the younger linemen that only game competition can provide.
 
Also, O-Line coach Herb Hand should do less social media and more coaching. Franklin's staff is awesome at social media. I don't see a whole lot of progress from the opener through game five in terms of fixing things in practice. Maybe you can't fix lack of size.
 

SoxJox

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terrynever said:
 I don't see a whole lot of progress from the opener through game five in terms of fixing things in practice. Maybe you can't fix lack of size.
This is what worries me most.  Franklin seems to have established a fixed game plan regardless of opponent.  Of course, his players combined skills and lack of experience in key areas may force him to make decisions he otherwise would not make.  I think one thing he could rid from his play book completely and immediately: the wildcat.  
 
I think he may want to look at Andrew Wolverton as a replacement at punter.  Wolverton is Penn State's soccer goalkeeper and kicks a soccer ball 3/4's the length of the field..  He also just set a Penn State record with his 29th career shutout in a 1-0 win vs Michigan.  He also has yet to be scored on this year as #7 Penn State improved to 7-0-1 on the season. 
 

terrynever

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SoxJox said:
This is what worries me most.  Franklin seems to have established a fixed game plan regardless of opponent.  Of course, his players combined skills and lack of experience in key areas may force him to make decisions he otherwise would not make.  I think one thing he could rid from his play book completely and immediately: the wildcat.  
 
I think he may want to look at Andrew Wolverton as a replacement at punter.  Wolverton is Penn State's soccer goalkeeper and kicks a soccer ball 3/4's the length of the field..  He also just set a Penn State record with his 29th career shutout in a 1-0 win vs Michigan.  He also has yet to be scored on this year as #7 Penn State improved to 7-0-1 on the season.
They have an Aussie punter, Daniel Pasquariello, who might get a look.
 

canderson

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terrynever said:
True. But they should get a little bit better each week. I don't see that here.
They're undersized and lack depth. They've struggled against every decent line they've faced. It's only going to get worse.
 

SoxJox

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My apologies, the soccer team is 8-0-1 overall, and 3-0-0 in the B1G.
 
So let's look at the depth chart and numbers for Penn State's offensive line:
 
  [tablegrid= Penn State Offensive Line Depth Chart ]1st Team 2nd Team 3rd Team Donovan Smith (Jr.) 6'5"/335# Albert Hall (So.) 6'4"/266# Chance Sorrell (Fr.) 6'5"/291# Derek Dowrey (So.) 6'3"/323# Noah Beh (Fr.) 6'6"/257# Andrew Terlingo (Fr.) 6'4"/289# Angelo Mangrio (Jr.) 6'3"/303# Wendy Laurent (So.) 6'4"/284# Tom Devenney (Fr.) 6'1'/299# Brian Gaia (So.) 6'3"/291# Brendan Mahon (Fr.) 6'4"/294# Steve Meyers (Fr.) 6'2"/315# Andrew Nelson (Fr.) 6'5"/305# Chasz Wright (Fr.) 6'7"/321# Evan Galimberti (Fr.) 6'4"/268#       Average Ht/Wt 6'4"/296   Average Year Experience 2.3 [/tablegrid]
 
So Cander, I agree that with an average experience level of 2.3 years (and amazingly, 9 of 15 linemen are freshmen, they obviously lack experience.
 
But at an average of 6'4" and 296#, I would not characterize them as demonstrably undersized.
 

canderson

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So midway through the third en route to a loss at Michgan. Hackenburg looks terrible, he looks to regress each week. Bad decisions, terrible throws. He is barely mediocre.

What gives?
 

Fred in Lynn

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I think the answer is that he's just 19 and is being hurt by several deficiencies that aren't his doing. The OL is bad, but that's a known. I blame the staff. They run plays that take too long to develop, increasing the pressure on an already-challenged OL to protect him. They do not use their deep stable of TEs at all. I think the biggest hinderance to Hackenberg is the Franklin staff. James can out-recruit his predecessor, but for 60 minutes on Saturday, I don't think he comes close to BoB. Need quick slants, more TE, all in shorter routes. Would help the OL and open up more opportunities to run.
 

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Fred in Lynn said:
I think the answer is that he's just 19 and is being hurt by several deficiencies that aren't his doing. The OL is bad, but that's a known. I blame the staff. They run plays that take too long to develop, increasing the pressure on an already-challenged OL to protect him. They do not use their deep stable of TEs at all. I think the biggest hinderance to Hackenberg is the Franklin staff. James can out-recruit his predecessor, but for 60 minutes on Saturday, I don't think he comes close to BoB. Need quick slants, more TE, all in shorter routes. Would help the OL and open up more opportunities to run.
Very well could be true. If so, the recruits will bolt to other programs like that Wabush kid or whatever his name. Maybe he saw the play and figured as a QB he can fit much better elsewhere.
 
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PSU drops 3*/4* Sayreville NJ player Myles Hartsfield from their commit list, following the Sayreville sex abuse hazing scandal.
 
deadspin
 
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PEDOPHILIA SLAM!
 
The victims - and there were many - were HS freshmen being anally violated by their teammates' fingers, as a hazing ritual.  Just so you've got some context for your next round of tasteless jokes.
 

Fred in Lynn

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canderson said:
Very well could be true. If so, the recruits will bolt to other programs like that Wabush kid or whatever his name. Maybe he saw the play and figured as a QB he can fit much better elsewhere.
What I've heard of Donovan's system, it is designed for a multi-threat QB like Wimbush. My guess is that he saw a better opportunity to play at ND. He's not going to play ahead of Hackenberg. I thought about the possibility that the switch could be indicative of something, but I'm not sure what that would be. They don't have an inordinate number of commits reconsidering and Wimbush seemed soft all along. What are you going to do? Recruits are trying to figure out what they want to do and this is the only leverage they have.
 

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Fred in Lynn said:
What's the line for Saturday? I'm taking the visitors and 40. Think it will be ugly.
It'll be Hackenberg's last game this season I bet. He's going to get destroyed. I have it

Ohio State 42
Penn State 6

PSU's defense is probably better than the teams OSU has lit up the past few weeks.

I saw -11.5 as the line.
 

Fred in Lynn

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The LBs and Zettel/Johnson have been a pleasure to watch this year. Zettel is an interesting player. Rather athletic for a DT. Maybe I'll just watch when OSU is on offense, unless Donovan & Co come up with a different scheme and quick slant them to death or throw to the TEs. Here I go, getting all optimistic for no good reason.
 
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Fred in Lynn said:
What's the line for Saturday? I'm taking the visitors and 40. Think it will be ugly.
hope you didnt bet the house.
 

Fred in Lynn

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MentalDisabldLst said:
hope you didnt bet the house.
You and me both. Didn't see that coming, and if you had just shown me the PSU offensive plays, I would have guessed my predicted spread would have held true. I underestimated the PSU defense, and probably overestimated the OSU offense.
 

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OSU looked pretty awful. I'm not sure if PSU can get two more wins this year to make a bowl. Next week vs Maryland is a must-win, and coming off this loss for a noon kickoff is tough sledding.