2014 Celtics Offseason: Rebuilding Plans

zenter

indian sweet
SoSH Member
Oct 11, 2005
5,641
Astoria, NY
Stitch01 said:
Broussard says the Celtics are looking into Lance Stephenson
 
Cellar-Door said:
EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
 
I... don't get it. Absent a complementary move, adding another SG (albeit one who has some entertainment value and actual value) makes little sense. Bradley can't be moved for like another 25 days or so (see edit), IIRC.
 
Unless this is an S&T three-way that somehow gets other quality players onto the Celts, I see no point. And I'm pretty sure CBA doesn't allow an S&T player to be traded until December 15 anyway. If we get Lance, we keep him.
 
Basically, I wouldn't want to sign a headache who helps a 30-win team be a 33-win team.
 
EDIT: Am I reading CBA FAQ right that Bradley cannot be moved until January 15th since the Celts exercised Bird rights?
 

bowiac

Caveat: I know nothing about what I speak
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 18, 2003
12,945
New York, NY
southshoresoxfan said:
Id flip bradley and a pick for Lance right now in an S and T. Stephenson is very good and young.
I don't think a sign and trade is needed for Lance. He's unrestricted and the Pacers have no bird rights over him.
 

bowiac

Caveat: I know nothing about what I speak
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 18, 2003
12,945
New York, NY
I think by "looking into" Stephenson, they're checking on the possibility that he's such a headcase that they're curious if they can sign him for 50 cents on the dollar.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
bowiac said:
I think by "looking into" Stephenson, they're checking on the possibility that he's such a headcase that they're curious if they can sign him for 50 cents on the dollar.
He's has over $9m per on the table and the two sides are reportedly not even close so not sure what you mean by this.

He's exactly the type of player the Celtics missed last season without Pierce....an elite pick-n-roll shot maker and creator. I'm glad Ainge is exploring ways to fill the most needed role in our offense whether it's Stevenson or not.
 

bowiac

Caveat: I know nothing about what I speak
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 18, 2003
12,945
New York, NY
I just mean that "looking into" doesn't mean much. I like Stephenson, although I think he's a strange fit for a team that just signed a SG, and just drafted a PG who may well end up at SG... Oh, plus James Young, another SG...
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,460
HomeRunBaker said:
He's has over $9m per on the table and the two sides are reportedly not even close so not sure what you mean by this.

He's exactly the type of player the Celtics missed last season without Pierce....an elite pick-n-roll shot maker and creator. I'm glad Ainge is exploring ways to fill the most needed role in our offense whether it's Stevenson or not.
He really isn't this in any way shape or form. He finishes well at the rim but he's a bad pull up shooter. He's essentially what we hope Marcus Smart is, but at the 2.
He gets a lot of assists for a SG, and is good at getting to the rim and finishing. He also shot the 3 ok last year, and if he can maintain his levels from last year he could be good, I'd worry though that last year was his best year and that was based in large part on a huge first half, his post AS break numbers on both offense and defense took a huge tumble.
Whoever gets him is paying a ton for athletic potential attached to a crazy guy with consistency issues and all kinds of attitude. Put him on a bad team like the Celtics and he's going to take 25 shots a game half of them terrible, play lazy defense, argue with coaches and teammates and keep cashin them checks for 4 or 5 years.
 
TL:DR- there is a ton of Ricky Davis with a worse attitude potential in Stephenson.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
He really is one of the leagues best pick-n-roll players and it's pretty universally known. If he wasn't it isn't likely he'd be in the league.....it's what he does and how he was used last year very effectively.
 

wutang112878

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2007
6,066
Lets put it this way with Lance, there were 25 SGs last year who took 400 or more 2pt FGs:
  • Lance was 2nd in the league in 2pt FG% at 54.5% only behind Wade at 55.7%. 
  • The 2pt FG% of SGs who took 400+ 2pt FGs was 47.8%, so Lance was very much above average
  • In terms of eFG%, Lance was 7th at 54% and the average (of SGs with 400+ 2pt FGA) was 50.4%
The guy can shoot.  The head seems to be the big variable and his projected value is really about figuring out how much of the crazy is due to just being crazy and how much is due to immaturity which could improve
 

Brickowski

Banned
Feb 15, 2011
3,755
I don't recall Ricky Davis taunting opponents the way Stephenson does. It's one thing to play with a chip on your shoulder, but another to be completely classless. Also, it will be interesting to see if he can put up similar numbers when he's not playing alongside Paul George.

Having said that, Stephenson is an instigator and he's talented.
 

wutang112878

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2007
6,066
Ricky's biggest problem as I remember it was always maturity and he never really gained any.  I remember reading an article that described his whole mentality of 'get buckets', it was like he was trying to be the best fantasy player possible kind of ignore the best teammate aspect of the game.
 
On Lance, this is such a subjective thing is really is all about doing a lot of due diligence.  There is a real fine line between intense instigator (which is great) and crazy.  KG was the former but for the most part was always under control.  Perk was an intense instigator who would occasionally cross the line and just couldnt control his technical fouls, but he controlled his crazy so this was a good thing.  I think thats what it comes down to for the crazies, can they control their crazy.  And Lance's most recent crazy playoff appearance kind of reminds me of Pierce and his whole head bandage craziness in a way because I love that he was trying to really get under Lebron's skin thats just awesome.
 

ALiveH

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,104
I suppose lance is pretty similar to ricky davis when the C's acquired him at the same age and position & being a "head case", except that lance is a better shooter, rebounder, passer, defender & turns the ball over less than ricky did at the time.  Lance definitely has some maturity issues to sort through, but Ricky did some koo-koo crazy stuff on the court like trying a between the legs dunk in a game or missing a shot intentionally in a game to try to get a triple-double - pretty much the definition of a selfish chucker.  And even so the ricky davis experiment wasn't a disaster b/c he ended up getting flipped for assets later on.
 
I like lance, pending danny's due diligence and if the price is right.  He has a ton of potential, is only 23 and we're in asset gathering mode at the moment, not trying to construct the perfect roster.  If james young plays the 3 and rondo is on the way out, then there is definitely room for avery, lance and marcus in a guard rotation.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
I don't dislike Stephenson as a player, but if reports are to be believed, he just turned down 5/44 from Indy.  
 
Unless his market collapses and Danny can circle back around and sign him for cheaper later on, I'm not sure how he fits. I want no part of beating that contract.
 

EL Jeffe

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 30, 2006
1,314
Well the Celtics have been rumored to be in on a 3-way trade with Phoenix and the Pacers. While we've assumed/speculated that Hibbert was the return for Rondo, it's entirely possible that Stephenson would be the one taking up Rondo's $12mil+ cap slot. The $10mil TPE expires soon, but I'm not sure if there's a quality big out there that could be had for it now that Asik is off the market.
 

swingin val

New Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,162
Minneapolis
This team is not competitive next year unless they find a way to get Love here (or similarly good player) in addition to any Stephenson deal. They are at a point where they should sign whoever doesn't kill their cap, and who is, or can be, an asset down the line. This should happen regardless of position.

A Smart, Bradley, Stephenson, Green, Young playing PG/SG/SF is an interesting mix, IMO.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
radsoxfan said:
I don't dislike Stephenson as a player, but if reports are to be believed, he just turned down 5/44 from Indy.  
 
Unless his market collapses and Danny can circle back around and sign him for cheaper later on, I'm not sure how he fits. I want no part of beating that contract.
He essentially turned down the lowball offer which was very slightly more than what Avery and Channing Frye received. Can't really blame him and his team for laughing at what Bird put on the table.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
wutang112878 said:
Lets put it this way with Lance, there were 25 SGs last year who took 400 or more 2pt FGs:
  • Lance was 2nd in the league in 2pt FG% at 54.5% only behind Wade at 55.7%. 
  • The 2pt FG% of SGs who took 400+ 2pt FGs was 47.8%, so Lance was very much above average
  • In terms of eFG%, Lance was 7th at 54% and the average (of SGs with 400+ 2pt FGA) was 50.4%
The guy can shoot.  The head seems to be the big variable and his projected value is really about figuring out how much of the crazy is due to just being crazy and how much is due to immaturity which could improve
He can do much more than shoot. Lance led all SG's with over 7 Rpg and 3rd in Apg behind Harden and Tyreke. Those percentages are also reflecting that many of these attempts are against the shot clock in Indiana's stagnant halfcourt offense.
 

wutang112878

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2007
6,066
radsoxfan said:
I don't dislike Stephenson as a player, but if reports are to be believed, he just turned down 5/44 from Indy.  
 
Unless his market collapses and Danny can circle back around and sign him for cheaper later on, I'm not sure how he fits. I want no part of beating that contract.
 
Would you rather have Bradley at the 3/24 or Lance at say 5/50?  I'd be ok going with the higher AAV and more years because Lance is clearly improving and is so much better offensively than Bradley.  I wouldnt want to pass up a good opportunity to get Lance just because we signed Bradley and thats duplication if we got Lance.  I have to believe we could move Bradley and just take a slightly crappy contract back and remove that duplication.
 
Overall on fit, we have fit problems for most of our roster so I dont mind creating another one if we are potentially adding real talent
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,669
A big no from me for Lance. I'm comfortable with the idea that the Celtics are going to suck next year, and probably the year after that at least. Lance would be a good signing for a team that is one or two pieces away from being a contender. The Celtics need many, many things to reach that level, so bringing in Lance doesn't really solve anything.
 
The worst part of this is that Lance on the Celtics would be a miserable fit imo. Lance will be our top scoring option, which means he is going to take about 10 shots a game that he shouldn't have taken, and pick up a ton of bad habits. Ideally, Lance needs to be in a situation where the coach and the team can reel him in from time to time, but the Celtics will just give Lance carte blanche to do whatever he wants, because they have nothing better to go with.
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
43,559
Here
I'm not going to lie, part of me wants to see it just to see how crazy a backcourt of Stephenson and Smart could be. As a player, I'd be thrilled with something like 5/55 for Stephenson, who could turn into a max or near max guy if he improves and cleans up his act a it. Like Smart, he's crazy, but he's also a hard worker. I think he's the perfect fit for Stevens.
 

DannyDarwinism

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 7, 2007
4,883
If they sign LS, the celtics will have a lock down on nyc high school scoring leaders. Lance#1, Bassy #3 and Kenny A. #4.

Actually, that's NY state, they're 1,2,3 in NYC.
 

bowiac

Caveat: I know nothing about what I speak
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 18, 2003
12,945
New York, NY
Ed Hillel said:
I'm not going to lie, part of me wants to see it just to see how crazy a backcourt of Stephenson and Smart could be. As a player, I'd be thrilled with something like 5/55 for Stephenson, who could turn into a max or near max guy if he improves and cleans up his act a it. Like Smart, he's crazy, but he's also a hard worker. I think he's the perfect fit for Stevens.
Do the Celtics even have plausible cap space to get a deal like this?
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Kliq said:
A big no from me for Lance. I'm comfortable with the idea that the Celtics are going to suck next year, and probably the year after that at least. Lance would be a good signing for a team that is one or two pieces away from being a contender. The Celtics need many, many things to reach that level, so bringing in Lance doesn't really solve anything.
 
The worst part of this is that Lance on the Celtics would be a miserable fit imo. Lance will be our top scoring option, which means he is going to take about 10 shots a game that he shouldn't have taken, and pick up a ton of bad habits. Ideally, Lance needs to be in a situation where the coach and the team can reel him in from time to time, but the Celtics will just give Lance carte blanche to do whatever he wants, because they have nothing better to go with.
Since we don't have anything better wouldn't this be the exact reason we would want to have the balls in Lance's hands? To say he would be a significant upgrade is an understatement.

As we obviously need many parts Lance would absolutely solve one of the problems. If we approached every acquisition with the attitude that alone it wouldn't make a difference because we have so many holes we would never improve the personnel on the team.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
bowiac said:
Do the Celtics even have plausible cap space to get a deal like this?
Who needs cap space? This would be a part of the Rondo/Dragic 3-Teamer with Phoenix. Of course Lance as a FA would have to agree to a contract with Boston. We also have the $10m TPE, the full MLE, and non-guaranteed contracts of Bogans and Pressey. Ainge has a ton of flexibility to get deals done if he wants to pull the trigger.
 

MainerInExile

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 21, 2003
4,825
Bay Area
HomeRunBaker said:
Who needs cap space? This would be a part of the Rondo/Dragic 3-Teamer with Phoenix. Of course Lance as a FA would have to agree to a contract with Boston. We also have the $10m TPE, the full MLE, and non-guaranteed contracts of Bogans and Pressey. Ainge has a ton of flexibility to get deals done if he wants to pull the trigger.
The TPE expires on Saturday, so something should happen soon.
 

MainerInExile

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 21, 2003
4,825
Bay Area
swingin val said:
Don't TPE's expire all the time without being used?
Probably, but the expectation since last year was that Trader Danny would use it.  It's an asset, and I can't see them letting it go for nothing.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Let's not forget they Avery can still be included in this sign-n-trade for Stephenson.
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
43,559
Here
bowiac said:
Do the Celtics even have plausible cap space to get a deal like this?
 
Edit - Already addressed.
 
Quick answer, there are a few ways it could happen, especially with Rondo getting moved, which was my assumption with Stephenson being brought in.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
zenter said:
 
Are you sure? Assuming he actually was resigned, looks like he can't be moved until Dec 15 since he was a free agent.
July 1st was the first day teams could negotiate with FA and come to verbal agreements. We are still in the FA signing moratorium period until Thurs when the players can officially sign these contracts.

Each of these "signings" you here announced are only verbal agreements and sides are still able to be negotiated into sign-n-trades until they are officially done.
 

BostonFan23

Randy Hickey
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
1,723
I like Stephenson as a backcourt partner with Smart, but that team would need some solid leadership (read: not Rondo) to help steer things in the right direction.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
HomeRunBaker said:
He essentially turned down the lowball offer which was very slightly more than what Avery and Channing Frye received. Can't really blame him and his team for laughing at what Bird put on the table.
 
It's not a great offer when compared to Bradley or Frye, thats for sure.  But as a front office, that doesn't mean the Pacers should be lining up to be the next one on  the ridiculous contract list. Take those as reasonable comparisons at your own risk. 
 
I think 9M/year on a very long term commitment is a reasonable offer from the Pacers…. they know him better than anyone else.  If someone else wants to offer him 60M, I can understand letting him go.  He's just not that good, and he is that crazy.  
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
radsoxfan said:
 
It's not a great offer when compared to Bradley or Frye, thats for sure.  But as a front office, that doesn't mean the Pacers should be lining up to be the next one on  the ridiculous contract list. Take those as reasonable comparisons at your own risk. 
 
I think 9M/year on a very long term commitment is a reasonable offer from the Pacers. they know him better than anyone else.  If someone else wants to offer him 60M, I can understand letting him go.  He's just not that good, and he is that crazy.  
You have to adapt to the market though or else you won't be making competitive offers to anyone. The cap will be around $10m higher next year and we see the market changing daily......$9m per for a Stephenson isn't even close to anything he would or should accept. This is a market where a team isn't offering Gordon Frickin Hayward a max deal because they know his team will match!

And it's not slowing down anytime soon....it's heading higher and higher.
 

bowiac

Caveat: I know nothing about what I speak
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 18, 2003
12,945
New York, NY
 
@CelticsHub

Celtics now have 2 first round 2015 picks, 3 first round 2016 picks, 2 first round 2018 picks, and right to swap picks with BKN in 2017.
Plus of course, the two they just used this year.
 

southshoresoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
5,249
Canton MA
So what has danny given up versus what hes gotten?

Give
Pierce
Garnett
2nd rd pick
Doc Rivers

Get
Humphries
Wallace
5 firsts
1 right to swap
Tyler zeller
Marcus Thronton


Not bad Danny. Not bad at all.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,492
bowiac said:
Quote
@CelticsHub

Celtics now have 2 first round 2015 picks, 3 first round 2016 picks, 2 first round 2018 picks, and right to swap picks with BKN in 2017.
 
Plus of course, the two they just used this year.
 
Was reading somewhere that under the new CBA, it seems like the only way to build a championship team (other than the Spurs model of having star players take pretty big discounts) is to limit the team to one or two max players and fill in with contributors on rookie contracts (sort of like the NFL).

Given how sports leagues are artificially depressing the contracts of draftees, seems like first-round picks are becoming increasingly more valuable all over.
 

bowiac

Caveat: I know nothing about what I speak
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 18, 2003
12,945
New York, NY
The NBA is a good place to be as a middle of the road player. The money at the bottom for draftees is compressed by the CBA, and the money at the top for the max guys is compressed too.
 

southshoresoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
5,249
Canton MA
bowiac said:
The NBA is a good place to be as a middle of the road player. The money at the bottom for draftees is compressed by the CBA, and the money at the top for the max guys is compressed too.
Its like being middle management at a company where the ceo makes 500k you make 250k but the guy below you makes minimum wage
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
32,620
what does the roster look like (is this close):
 
Zeller/Faverani
Sully/Olynyk
Green/Young
Bradley/Thornton
Rondo/Smart/Pressey
 

SoxFanInPdx

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
3,246
Portland, OR
With all this cap space and possibly him not being done creating more, is there a reason why Ainge just wouldn't punt away 2015 as well? I mean, I don't expect Saunders to trade Love at this point. Here's a list of the potential players that could be had in the summer of 2016..
 
 
 
-Anthony Davis
-Kevin Durant
-Damian Lillard
-Andre Drummond
-Joakim Noah
-Michael Carter Williams
-Dwight Howard (possible opt out clause?)
-Roy Hibbert
-Al Horford
-Nerlens Noel
-Deron Williams
-Brook Lopez
 

zenter

indian sweet
SoSH Member
Oct 11, 2005
5,641
Astoria, NY
southshoresoxfan said:
So what has danny given up versus what hes gotten?

Give
Pierce
Garnett
2nd rd pick
Doc Rivers

Get
Humphries
Wallace
5 firsts
1 right to swap
Tyler zeller
Marcus Thronton


Not bad Danny. Not bad at all.
 
Jason Terry is weeping quietly in a corner.