Changes in Papelbon's Wind-Up Options

[donutogre]

Papelbon's delivery to the plate is one that is pretty well burned into my brain, for whatever reason. It's probably a combination of NESN's cameras loving him, the fact that almost every time he pitches it is in a somewhat critical spot, and the fact that I obsess over pitching in general.

But it was definitely a delivery that I can recall easily - the lean-in for the sign, the set with his hands up high...

he then drops his hands "to the belt" so to speak:




And then goes into his pitching motion:



(Please accept my apologies for any memories of the 2008 ALCS I may have brought up).

So consider me surprised when I realized Tuesday watching the game that he removed a big part of his delivery. He no longer drops down to the belt before going into his pitching motion. I've been looking for video to pull screenshots from and have only found one and unfortunately it didn't show him from the set position at all, but I think you can tell here that his hands are higher than they used to be.



While I don't have video/screen shot proof, I am positive that at no time in the game Tuesday did he have his hands as they were in the first image I posted.

I'm surprised that I haven't heard about this yet and also that no one else seems to have noticed or found it worth mentioning. A change to a pitcher's delivery seems like the kind of thing we might get a story about during the long, dull days of Spring Training.

It's entirely possible that I'm reading too much in to this and pitchers make these sorts of changes all the time, but I doubt it. It seems like repeating everything about your delivery is what leads to success and consistency, so there must be some reason that Pap would make a change like this. Any thoughts?

Just for the record, the first video can be found here:
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/media/video.j...58&c_id=bos
Clips of Pap starting at about 2:00

And the 2nd video from here:
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/media/video.j...tent_id=4039643
Go to 1:15 and Pap will be up right around there.

EDIT for clarity in the subject line.

This post has been edited by donutogre: Apr 11 2009, 01:33 PM

[decshealy]

I'll have to look into it.....i don't put much in it though...
maybe you found his tell

[redsahx]

I'm probably a bad person to comment on this since I can remember changing my delivery in high school every other week. However the key points to look at in mechanics are the arm motion, arm angle, and follow-through. Pitchers will make other adjustments earlier in the windup just to make it easier to get lined up properly, so I wouldn't worry about that. If their arm angle starts to drop, or they're short-arming the ball more, thats more drastic. (Excuse the old high-school story)

Josh Beckett's delivery also looked slightly different. The arm angle and follow through were all the same, but the hands seemed to be up a bit higher on the leg kick. Of course in 2007 he went from bringing the glove over his head in the windup, to pretty much keeping it belt high throughout the delivery. On Tuesday he seemed to be half way. However, if he pitches like that in 40-degree weather, who cares.

As far as Papelbon, it will be interesting to track any changes over the course of the year. Perhaps he tried something new during the spring and is carrying it over. Maybe he trends back towards his old delivery as the season progresses.

[donutogre]

Yeah in retrospect I realize that I'm probably not using "delivery" correctly - it's really "pre-delivery," before he goes into the full pitching motion. Just thought it was interesting.

Good memory on Beckett's change between 2006 and 2007 - he completely retooled his delivery.

This post has been edited by donutogre: Apr 9 2009, 04:22 PM

[decshealy]

Wind up would be proper nomenclature.


I don't see much concern for it, I know that after he got roughed up a few times during spring training he was working with John Farrell on his delivery. More specifically focusing on finishing his delivery straight down the mound, pointing towards home plate, rather than veering off towards first base. This, according to scouts, is supposed to make it tougher on batters by directing his fastball more and releasing it slightly closer to the plate. This change in windup may be a byproduct of that change.
I'll be paying attention when he makes his next appearance, if we can get to him.....

[Drew7]

I think its impossible to make such a judgement solely on similar screenshots. You can't tell if he's at the "end" of his pre-delivery (bringing his arms down to prepare deliver the pitch) or the "beginning" (bringing his arms up from the set) in either, therefor to make comparisons it think its tough to do so. Interesting point, but i dont see much there.

This post has been edited by Drew7: Apr 9 2009, 06:31 PM

[decshealy]

i should have also mentioned that we have a very small sample to evaluate from

[donutogre]

Just for the record, I wanted to note that I'm not calling this out as something to be "concerned" about, just something interesting that I noticed. I know the screen shots aren't perfect, but it was clear as day watching the game on Tuesday.

Let's just hope the Sox give him the opportunity to get into a game! But it was definitely a change from past years...whether or not it means anything is certainly open to debate and it likely doesn't "mean" anything. But there must be some reason for the change.

Thanks for the insight into what he worked on this spring, decshealy.

[pack]

If the change sticks, my guess is it's to simplify his delivery and get rid of extra moving parts. Schill used to keep his glove high, I always assumed it was easier to keep the glove open and hide his split grip with high hands, maybe the pap split is coming back.

In 07 there was an article about pap mechanics, mainly spawned from pap switching from finishing with is right arm ending below his glove, to ending with it above his glove. Maybe you'll get something else out of the pictures, but I dismissed the analysis because it drew lines and angles from two different clips and two different camera angles, and treated them like they had anything to do with one another. http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/...athan_papelbon/

According to the wonderful pitchFX tool on brooksbaseball.net, looks like paps release point is higher this year than last year. Maybe that means his shoulder feels stronger, maybe pitchfx isn't consistent year to year, maybe he's wearing taller spikes. I think its early to draw to many conclusions about anything, but I like the idea the coaching staff isn't afraid to try new things with successful pitchers.

Release point 2009/04/07
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfx/release....&v_size=500

Release point 2008/04/08
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfx/release....&v_size=500

Release point 2008/08/11
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfx/release....&v_size=500

[FinanceAdvice]

I second the motion that its good the coaching staff experiments with successful pitchers. Just as hitters continually adjust, pitchers must do likewise. With Papelbon, I know he is a fastball pitcher; devastating fastball. Yet I would like to see him mix up some more pitches. Perhaps go to a Slider more often. In game one, I did notice he threw a change up. Hopefully we will see a larger number of diferent pitches.

[decshealy]

his release point is a result of his "directing pitches" as he finishes and releasing closer to the plate

[FinanceAdvice]

I noticed in yesterday's game vs. O's (4/18) that he threw a total of 23 pitches in one inning of work. That was for only 11 strikes and 12 balls. Is that by design of is he faltering with his location? This seems very unPapelbonesque.

[aaronjohnw]

I believe Papelbon is tinkering with his wind up and mechanics in general as evidenced by his working with John Ferrell this spring. I think Papelbon goes to the mound with the mindset that he is capable of striking every batter out. Over his MLB career hitters are going to the plate looking fastball on every pitch. When Papelbon misses with location, the result is usually a basehit. I think adding a slider and/or a cutter would benefit him greatly. I think his slider could be as devastating as Saito's. He needs to work on another out pitch besides his fastball. It would make him and his fastball that much better. But overall I'm not worried about Papelbon and how he'll do this year. No matter what, he'll still put up a sub 2.50 ERA.

[Fireball Fred]

I have to say that Papelbon seems less effective than he was before the latter first part of last year. His motion appears to be "longer," which may be giving the batter a better look at the ball; and he's all but given up on the splitter, hasn't he? My sense is that he's adjusting to a shoulder issue that affects his control.

[donutogre]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...s_for_papelbon/

Looks like we have some confirmation that Papelbon is doing some things differently this year in regards to his wind-up/mechanics. This piece mostly focuses on the long counts he has gotten himself into and his rising WHIP compared to previous years, but also delves into what is different between last year and this one.

"I've changed my delivery, kind of added a little bit more power to it," Papelbon said. "When you make adjustments in this game, you're going to have to take the good with the bad, and maybe right now I'm throwing a little bit more pitches than I have in the past. To me, I'm still not overworking myself because by changing my mechanics, it's able to take some of that pressure off my arm. So throwing 15 pitches the old way is the same as throwing 25 the new way."

In addition to changing where he sets his hands (from his waist to his shoulder), Papelbon is driving more with his lower body.

"I'm using my legs more so all that torque and stuff is going to be on my legs and not on my arms," Papelbon said. "I feel really good with it right now. My outing in Oakland kind of solidified that, like OK, I'm comfortable as I can be with the new mechanics."

[redsahx]

I have to say that Papelbon seems less effective than he was before the latter first part of last year. His motion appears to be "longer," which may be giving the batter a better look at the ball; and he's all but given up on the splitter, hasn't he? My sense is that he's adjusting to a shoulder issue that affects his control.

I always wonder how long Papelbon can feasibly continue at this rate before hitting a wall. He's stayed realtively healthy, but he had a huge workload his first full year in 2006, then pitched deep into the playoffs the last two seasons. Closing and starting are completely different, but you'd have to think each inning he throws is generally high stress on the arm, especially for a guy who relies on his fastball as his main out pitch.
What has always seemed to make him most effective is the movement on his fastball. Beckett for example can throw harder, but his fastball is generally pretty straight. Papelbons moves all over the place so it seems hitters usually have a very hard time locking in on it. I rarely fear the long ball with Papelbon because hitters rarely seem to line up his fastball well.

[CTballfan]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...s_for_papelbon/

Looks like we have some confirmation that Papelbon is doing some things differently this year in regards to his wind-up/mechanics. This piece mostly focuses on the long counts he has gotten himself into and his rising WHIP compared to previous years, but also delves into what is different between last year and this one.

Seems like he had a lot of long counts and wasn't missing as many bats last year, either, although perhaps that was just in stretches. Still has awesome stuff, but the league seems to be adjusting a little fast than Paps is.

[donutogre]

He's also not nearly as under control as he was in 2008. In 69.3 innings last year he had a minuscule 8 walks...he's already up to 5 this season.

This contradicts Francona's quote from the article I posted, where he says "It's not like he's walking people."

[redsahx]

He's also not nearly as under control as he was in 2008. In 69.3 innings last year he had a minuscule 8 walks...he's already up to 5 this season.

This contradicts Francona's quote from the article I posted, where he says "It's not like he's walking people."

Yeah 5 walks is quite significant at this stage in the season. It could also be early season cobwebs. Perhaps there will come a point by the end of May or early June where he settles in. We need a bigger sample size though, but at some point we'll have a better idea of whether or not this is a trend that will continue throughout the season.

[Drew7]

Looks like we have some confirmation that Papelbon is doing some things differently this year in regards to his wind-up/mechanics.

After you originally posted this, I paid more attention to his mechanics and noticed everything you pointed out. Your were certainly correct (and now we have confirmation). I hope with more power driving from his legs, it won't take too long for him to be more effective and place his pitches. Good job by you, Donut.

EDIT: Is he throwing the splitter less?

This post has been edited by Drew7: Apr 27 2009, 09:23 PM