Which "playoff guy" do you miss the most? Options

[smastroyin]

Fairly straightforward question.

[Pearl Wilson]

As your question implies, we miss them all. But most?

Beckett. Pitching and defense.

[Razor Shines]

There's only 1 guy on the list of whom you can say "If he didn't absolutely suck, the Red Sox would have won the game".

[15'sCementShoes]

There's only 1 guy on the list of whom you can say "If he didn't absolutely suck, the Red Sox would have won the game".

Actually, there were two - Beckett & Tito

[smastroyin]

I actually had a hard time with my vote. I ended up with Beckett, but I think that has more to do with how far he has fallen and how bad he has been. David Ortiz at least is still getting on base via the walk enough to not be completely useless. On the other hand, Beckett only controls every fourth game. BIG PAPI used to have a significant impact on two out of every three.

I threw Francona on there because he's the only one that doesn't have an injury excuse, and because I think this team is still good enough to win if poor decisions aren't made. However, playoff Tito still has a good chance of coming back, because really he doesn't usually come completely out of his shell until an elimination game. And except for the Beckett thing I thought he did a pretty good job last night. Problem is, the Beckett thing cost the Sox the game, probably.

PS - Also, before the inevitable wisecracks, this is not a sky is falling thread. You can actually take it as a ZOMG even though these guys have not appeared in their peak form, the Sox are still 1-1 in the ALCS and haven't used their ace yet.

[Yaz4Ever]

I actually had a hard time with my vote. I ended up with Beckett, but I think that has more to do with how far he has fallen and how bad he has been. David Ortiz at least is still getting on base via the walk enough to not be completely useless. On the other hand, Beckett only controls every fourth game. BIG PAPI used to have a significant impact on two out of every three.

I threw Francona on there because he's the only one that doesn't have an injury excuse, and because I think this team is still good enough to win if poor decisions aren't made. However, playoff Tito still has a good chance of coming back, because really he doesn't usually come completely out of his shell until an elimination game. And except for the Beckett thing I thought he did a pretty good job last night. Problem is, the Beckett thing cost the Sox the game, probably.

PS - Also, before the inevitable wisecracks, this is not a sky is falling thread. You can actually take it as a ZOMG even though these guys have not appeared in their peak form, the Sox are still 1-1 in the ALCS and haven't used their ace yet.

I miss Hanley Ramirez the most. Stupid trade

[Trautwein's ...]

Beckett. If the Red Sox put up 8 runs in a game Beckett starts in October it shouldn't matter what Tito does or doesn't do.

[David Laurila]

Francona is in this poll why? Because not every move he made last night worked out? C'mon.

We got by a 100-win team in the ALDS and just split on the road against a 97-win team. Pretty much every one of those games went down to the wire with numerous big decisions made by the managers.

Managers often get too much credit when the team wins, and far too much blame when they lose. Inferring that Francona qualifies as a playoff failure right now is a stretch IMO. (a linguistic aside: does anyone ever write out "in my opinion" anymore?)

[TheoShmeo]

I miss them all and this is indeed a tough question.

But as much as not seeing the dominant Beckett from last year hurts, the fact is that the Sox still have a dominant ace (just a different one) and Beckett was only that for the Red Sox in one post-season.

David Ortiz, by contrast, is an every day player and was ridiculous in 2004 and somewhere between good and awesome in 2003 and 2007 (my memory of the ChiSox series, other than Damon's pathetic last at bat in a Boston uniform, has been largely wiped out, so I can't recall what David did in that series).

For me, watching Ortiz at bats night after night with the thought (whether it's the "right" thought or not) that the best reasonable expectation is a walk is worse than losing Beckett as an ace.

With Francona, it's not so much that I expect him to make bad decisions than I have always viewed him as a great manager of people and just a good game manager. So seeing stuff like last night isn't quite as jarring as seeing weak Ortiz at bats or Beckett get lit up like it was 2006.

[smastroyin]

David Ortiz, by contrast, is an every day player and was ridiculous in 2004 and somewhere between good and awesome in 2003 and 2007 (my memory of the ChiSox series, other than Damon's pathetic last at bat in a Boston uniform, has been largely wiped out, so I can't recall what David did in that series).

333/333/750...2 2B and a HR in 12 AB.

[Bellhorn]

Interesting question. I voted for Ortiz, just because the anticipation of watching him come up in a big situation (and the frequent payoff) was a thrill unlike any other. On the other hand, the disappearance of Playoff Beckett is probably more objectively harmful to the team's chances, and Tito's bizarre decisions (Ellsbury leading off vs Kazmir, in addition to the pitching fiascoes) were very frustrating. So you can't really go wrong with any of them.

[Todd Benzinger]

Tito. Despite Beckett's horrorshow, the game was winnable if managed better: Byrd in the 3rd™. You heard it here first.

Beckett is a very, very close second though. In fact if Beckett could just pitch like Dice-K on a bad day, we would have won.

I think Tito felt he was managing with house money in yesterday's game... he seemed to lack his usual playoff urgency... but winning game 2 on the road could really make the difference in the series...

This post has been edited by Todd Benzinger: Oct 12 2008, 09:44 AM

[Razor Shines]

Actually, there were two - Beckett & Tito

I don't know. Francona left Beckett in for too long, but what if he made the right move? If Francona had litfed Beckett after 3 innings, or even 2+, Tampa already has 3 or 4 runs on the board. And then you are faced with the prospect of Paul Byrd pitching ~3 innings, and as much as people wanted him in the game, he's certainly no lock to keep the opposition off the board.

If Francona had made the right move, maybe the Red Sox win.
If Beckett has shown up and pitched a replacement-level game, the Red Sox almost certainly win.

[Montana Fan]

This is a good question. For me it's Ortiz in a landslide. Christ, it's as if we're missing Manny & Ortiz from last year's lineup. Look at the number of people who bemoaned the weak lineup prior to the game yesterday. If Ortiz was clicking (pun not intended) I don't think there would have been near as many complaints. If Ortiz gets hot this series is over.

[scotian1]

Although watching Ortiz struggle is hard to do, if Beckett was anything like his former self the Sox would have taken out the Angels in 3 straight and would be up 2-0 in this series.

[reggiecleveland]

I almost started a thread about the myth of the "post season guy"

Generally a player does well in the post season when he is healthy strong and had a good regular season, at least a good 2nd half.

It is not logical expect Ortiz, a fatter older less healthy Ortiz to suddenly morph into walkoff Papi just because it is October. There were many jokes about "Clutch does not exist!!!!" in game threads when he was having great years. But in those years he was pretty good in the first inning too. He is just not very comfortable or strong. People don't notice but he talks about lifting. In the World Baseball Classic he made the Dominican team find him a place to lift. He complained to Dan Roche that he couldn't lift with his injury. He is not that strong and it shows by being a bit late and balls landing in gloves on the warning track. It is very unlikely his value will be more than walks.

Beckett is not right and it doesn't matter who you are if the stuff isn't there. Schilling thought he could "character" his way through 05 and be a closer. The fact is the arm of 21 game winner on a bad ankle was better than the arm of guy who was in a cast most of the winter attached to a good ankle. Beckett was fat sorry fanboys, he was fat and out of shape this spring. Maybe he was hurt in the off season, that happens and is a secret often, not from the team but from us. At any rate he has been pretty average all year. No surprise a guy who has been average all year sucks after getting hurt, yet again.

And Tito? Well we watched the bullpen implode a lot this year especially against the Rays. It seems he has little confidence in anyone other than Paps and Masterson. As a result he leaves in the starters and I doubt that will change.

[Redkluzu]

It's heartbreaking to have the thought, "OMG Ortiz is up. Well maybe they'll walk him," instead of the thought, "Thank God, Ortiz is up. He'll make them pay."

It's upsetting to have the thought, "maybe he'll make it through the 4th inning," instead of "he's got seven or eight in him tonight--mowing them down."

Not a myth as far as I'm concerned. Those are real thoughts now that have replaced real thoughts I had before. Based on reality.

This post has been edited by Redkluzu: Oct 12 2008, 10:47 AM

[cwright]

I had a hard time choosing between Beckett and Ortiz, but for me the bottom line was the everyday player vs. pitcher thing, along with the fact that even without Beckett, the Sox still have an ace. Having Ortiz (not) hitting between Pedroia and Youkilis is just killing this offense right now, especially with no Manny in the lineup.

I know this poll's only about guys still playing right now, but I think the biggest downgrade is having Kotsay instead of Lowell. Kotsay's first-pitch-swinging habits and awful results have severely weakened the bottom of the lineup.

[David Laurila]

IKotsay's first-pitch-swinging habits and awful results

While Kotsay only swung at one first pitch last night in six at-bats, he has offered at 9 of 24 first pitches in the postseason. In those nine at-bats, he has three hits. A notable among the outs was the line drive that Teixeira speared one batter before Lowrie's first-pitch game winner.

[Savin Hillbilly]

It's heartbreaking to have the thought, "OMG Ortiz is up. Well maybe they'll walk him," instead of the thought, "Thank God, Ortiz is up. He'll make them pay."

So true. In the past, when Papi walked, I usually felt like the other team had done the smart thing and dodged a bullet. Last night, I felt like they were doing us a favor.

I voted for Ortiz because for the past five years he has been our talisman, our holy hand grenade. The primary article of faith for Sox believers has been that when the chips are down, Papi will strike. That superhero aura is gone, for the moment at least, and it makes the Sox feel mortal and vulnerable, even when we're scoring runs without him, as we did last night.