Byrd Tipping Pitches? - updated with video Options

[ToeKneeArmAss]

I've gotten tired of watching Byrd pitch and being able to call every pitch based on his delivery - so I created a little video to illustrate what I'm seeing. Maybe someone who can get a message to him will see this.


EDIT: Guess we don't need the video kicking around any more.

This post has been edited by ToeKneeArmAss: Sep 17 2008, 09:43 PM

[Oil Can's Liver]

"I know what you mean man..... Shhh, dont tell anyone."

This post has been edited by Oil Can's Liver: Aug 16 2008, 10:39 PM

[KenTremendous]

Maybe this should be retitled: Sox Pitchers Tipping Pitches?

It's possible that Beckett just had a terrible day -- it looked like he had terrible location on his FB -- but the way their hitters were raking (and these are not good hitters) makes me wonder if the Jays have figured something out.

[jtn46]

Maybe this should be retitled: Sox Pitchers Tipping Pitches?

It's possible that Beckett just had a terrible day -- it looked like he had terrible location on his FB -- but the way their hitters were raking (and these are not good hitters) makes me wonder if the Jays have figured something out.

They were on a ton of offspeed pitches today. Even though McDonald hit a hanger, for a hitter as bad as him to be ready to pull a curve tells you that's exactly what he was looking for. Either their advance scouts picked up patterns on our pitch calling, or they knew what was coming. Tipping pitches is a thought. Stealing signs is a thought...something seemed up.

[paulftodd]

They were on a ton of offspeed pitches today. Even though McDonald hit a hanger, for a hitter as bad as him to be ready to pull a curve tells you that's exactly what he was looking for. Either their advance scouts picked up patterns on our pitch calling, or they knew what was coming. Tipping pitches is a thought. Stealing signs is a thought...something seemed up.

Maybe Beckett should tip his pitches like Byrd. Seriously, if it is suspected that hitters are knowing whats coming from multiple pitchers, it may be that the catcher (Tek) or someone in the field is tipping inadvertantly. Example, lets say Lowrie (just for example) sees a change up from Buchholz is being called for, and he adjusts his position expecting the ball to be pulled more if contact is made. If this move is picked up the hitter is able to sit on off speed stuff.

But it's interesting, Beckett has performed very well on the road and now has a 6.02 ERA at home. He also has a 5.46 ERA in day starts (3.55 at night). Could be just SSS though.

[Jnai]

They were on a ton of offspeed pitches today. Even though McDonald hit a hanger, for a hitter as bad as him to be ready to pull a curve tells you that's exactly what he was looking for. Either their advance scouts picked up patterns on our pitch calling, or they knew what was coming. Tipping pitches is a thought. Stealing signs is a thought...something seemed up.

Apologies because I didn't actually see the start (only heard the call on the radio), but by my count, Beckett gave up 4 hits on the fastball and 1 on the cutter, and only 3 other hits total (2 on the curveball and 1 on the changeup). It appears the bigger problem is that he wasn't missing any bats, with only 3 swinging strikes all day.

And, to be honest, most of the pitches that were hit were right over the heart of the plate.

The data:
http://brooksbaseball.net/pfx/index.php?s_...mlb_bosmlb_1%2F

This post has been edited by Jnai: Aug 17 2008, 08:32 PM

[jtn46]

Apologies because I didn't actually see the start (only heard the call on the radio), but by my count, Beckett gave up 4 hits on the fastball and 1 on the cutter, and only 3 other hits total (2 on the curveball and 1 on the changeup). It appears the bigger problem is that he wasn't missing any bats, with only 3 swinging strikes all day.

And, to be honest, most of the pitches that were hit were right over the heart of the plate.

The data:
http://brooksbaseball.net/pfx/index.php?s_...mlb_bosmlb_1%2F

I didn't just mean Beckett, actually. Rios got a 2-strike curve that was pretty well located from Oki, a little up, but inside, and he opened up his hips and yanked it down the line. Rios also hit an Aardsma slider earlier in the game. Of the 5 hits Oki gave up, 3 were on offspeed pitches. Wells hit a change off Oki, hit a slider off Masterson...

Just seemed like a lot of those hits were coming off offspeed pitches. Like I said, for McDonald to pull a curve up, but away, made me curious.

[Bellhorn]

I didn't just mean Beckett, actually. Rios got a 2-strike curve that was pretty well located from Oki, a little up, but inside, and he opened up his hips and yanked it down the line. Rios also hit an Aardsma slider earlier in the game. Of the 5 hits Oki gave up, 3 were on offspeed pitches. Wells hit a change off Oki, hit a slider off Masterson...

Just seemed like a lot of those hits were coming off offspeed pitches. Like I said, for McDonald to pull a curve up, but away, made me curious.

It's funny, the pitch-tipping/sign-stealing theories are obviously very speculative explanations for bad pitching performances, but it does seem as if such things have been suspected in intra-division play more than once since the unbalanced schedule went into effect. You may remember that there was a period of time (around '03-'05, IIRC) where the Orioles lineup seemed to go nuts whenever they came to Fenway. I remember hypothesizing (I was a much more naive fan back then, not having discovered SoSH yet ) that they might have had some kind of sign-stealing mechanism in place from the visiting dugout. I never checked any numbers rigorously, but I remember thinking, just from turning the figures over in my head, that their Fenway run totals over that period were sufficiently anomalous to raise a few red flags against the idea of dismissing it out of hand as a random blip.

[KenTremendous]

...I remember thinking, just from turning the figures over in my head, that their Fenway run totals over that period were sufficiently anomalous to raise a few red flags against the idea of dismissing it out of hand as a random blip.

That's where I am. I realize this sounds alarmist, and is completely unscientific, but these are not great hitters (23rd in team OPS) and they are now something like 11-2 against the Red Sox over the last 13.

I remember when the DBacks raked Pettitte over the coals in the 2001 WS Game 6, and my Yankee friends were like: "He's tipping his pitches! They know what's coming!" I thought they were insane. Then I read an interview with Mark Grace months later where he said they had indeed discovered a tip from the position of Pettitte's glove, and in essence did know exactly what was coming. Whether that's happening here is anybody's guess, but I think it's more common than the average person would guess.

[cannonball 1729]

That's where I am. I realize this sounds alarmist, and is completely unscientific, but these are not great hitters (23rd in team OPS) and they are now something like 11-2 against the Red Sox over the last 13.

I remember when the DBacks raked Pettitte over the coals in the 2001 WS Game 6, and my Yankee friends were like: "He's tipping his pitches! They know what's coming!" I thought they were insane. Then I read an interview with Mark Grace months later where he said they had indeed discovered a tip from the position of Pettitte's glove, and in essence did know exactly what was coming. Whether that's happening here is anybody's guess, but I think it's more common than the average person would guess.

Also, Cito Gaston is renowned to be one of the best in the game at picking up when pitchers are tipping pitches. In fact, there was a Boston Globe article linked here a while ago which stated as much. I can't access the whole article, but part of it says:

While leading the Blue Jays to World Series championships in 1992 and 1993, Gaston developed a reputation for being one of the most astute managers in the game at busting pitchers who were tipping their pitches. He happily shared his information with his own players and often received unsolicited information from opponents who, like Gaston, had made a hobby of studying the tendencies of the top hurlers in the game.

IIRC, it goes on to mention that the Jays beat the A's in the '92 playoffs in no small part because they picked up on a timing mechanism Eckersley used only when he threw breaking pitches.

Edit: I found the whole article:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FC...65/ai_n27002208

This post has been edited by cannonball 1729: Aug 18 2008, 01:58 AM

[cannonball 1729]

According to Lurker HrniakPosterChild, "This might be worth a post in the "tipping pitches" thread, as Tek calls out Toronto by name (after a game against Baltimore, of all things)."

He also said that he wasn't sure if Beckett was suspicious, but admitted that sign-stealing is still pervasive.

"There are some teams that are very renowned for doing it in our league," Varitek said. "Toronto is the most renowned for it. And New York. There are different teams throughout the league that are predictable, whether it's location or change of speeds. It's part of the game. But to defend against it, you have to use your coconut on the mound."

Link


This post has been edited by cannonball 1729: Aug 18 2008, 03:04 AM

[ToeKneeArmAss]

Video deleted

This post has been edited by ToeKneeArmAss: Sep 17 2008, 09:43 PM

[Fratboy]

Paging John Farrell. Seriously.

Excellent work, TKAA.

[Corsi Combover]

ToeKnee, you've got a PM.

[Rough Carrigan]

I was in Jordan's furniture watching the last game of the previous series in Toronto and noticed that Varitek was giving multiple signals and using his touch his shin guards, touch his shoulder signals even with no one on base at the end of that game.

Lurker JulE6 sent me a note to alert me that Cash was giving multiple signals to Delcarmen last night even when no one was on. If the Sox were even worried about this in Fenway, the Jays must be some amazing frigging sign stealers. (And their hitters must *really* suck if their offense is below average even with outrageously good sign stealing).

This post has been edited by Rough Carrigan: Sep 13 2008, 10:51 PM

[knucklecup]

Really cool.

Great observation.

[Vegas Sox Fan]

From watching the video it appears to be much more apparent when he is pitching from the stretch. A quick review of the numbers show this:

None on: .275/.307/.440/.747
Runners on: .278/.325/.511/.837

Fairly similar with the exception of the slugging numbers. It appears batters are teeing off when he pitches from the stretch and this may explain why.

This post has been edited by Vegas Sox Fan: Sep 14 2008, 01:01 PM

[Smiling Joe Hesk...]

That video evidence is pretty compelling, but it seems to me that from the windup the glove tap may not really be visible to the hitter since Byrd's hand doesn't seem to go above the glove. From the stretch though it sure looks like the batter could easily see him tapping that glove before throwing the fastball.

He's also faced the Jays 4 times in the last 6 weeks, which probably helps them with their familiarity with his pitching tics.

[trekfan55]

Is there any way of sending this video to John Farrell?

[Boggs26]

Is there any way of sending this video to John Farrell?

given the mention on NESN just now, apparently he found it...