Schill on Manny Options

[5belongstoGeorge]

I'll bet a year's wages that when the books come out 20 years from now, the one's with first-hand knowledge of the situation...Manny's going to come across as a complete asshole.

We already know at least 2 sides of the story, Manny's and the Red Sox FO (via Gammons). I am sure there is enough "asshole" to go around for all the parties involved.

[reggiecleveland]

Amazing how when someone who's more familiar with the situation (and more familiar with being a professional athlete) than anyone on this board will be in a thousand years says something insightful, he's criticized for nothing about what he said, but for who he is.

Maybe I'm missing the sarcasm.

I'll bet a year's wages that when the books come out 20 years from now, the one's with first-hand knowledge of the situation...Manny's going to come across as a complete asshole.

I am sure you are right, but that is also the time to do it, not two days after a trade. Perhaps Schilling is in retirement mode.

[TomRicardo]

Amazing how when someone who's more familiar with the situation (and more familiar with being a professional athlete) than anyone on this board will be in a thousand years says something insightful, he's criticized for nothing about what he said, but for who he is.

Maybe I'm missing the sarcasm.

No you are missing the hypocrisy. Schilling commenting on Manny being a malcontent forcing his way off a team is funny because Schilling did that to Philly in 2000 where he criticized the FO constantly. He even admitted to it:

It's not as tough as you think because it's all pretty much my fault. I would create problems that shouldn't have been made.

Also Schilling saying Manny committed every single no no on his way out is funny because Manny never burned his teammates in the press like Schilling is doing to Manny.

[Foulkey Reese]

I don't really care about Schilling's comments today, but trashing Manny on WEEI last Thursday before he was traded was completely unnecessary. At the very least wait until he's gone.


This post has been edited by Foulkey Reese: Aug 5 2008, 02:48 PM

[67WasBest]

No you are missing the hypocrisy. Schilling commenting on Manny being a malcontent forcing his way off a team is funny because Schilling did that to Philly in 2000 where he criticized the FO constantly. He even admitted to it:

One significant difference. Philly wasn't in the thick of a playoff race and finished 30 games out. Schilling wasn't hurting his teammates that year.

Also Schilling saying Manny committed every single no no on his way out is funny because Manny never burned his teammates in the press like Schilling is doing to Manny.

They're not teammates any longer.

edit: punctuation

This post has been edited by 67WasBest: Aug 6 2008, 11:07 AM

[John Marzano Oly...]

From Scott Williamson to Manny Ramirez, Curt Schilling seems to relish his role as a person who points out which teammate is faking their injury. Of course, it's never a bad move by Schilling, because he's "telling it like it is."

I wonder what he'd say if Josh Beckett came out tomorrow and said that Schilling has been faking all year and should get out there and pitch?

Honesty is fine. Too much honesty can turn one into an attention whore very quickly.

[Bleedred]

From Scott Williamson to Manny Ramirez, Curt Schilling seems to relish his role as a person who points out which teammate is faking their injury. Of course, it's never a bad move by Schilling, because he's "telling it like it is."

I wonder what he'd say if Josh Beckett came out tomorrow and said that Schilling has been faking all year and should get out there and pitch?

Honesty is fine. Too much honesty can turn one into an attention whore very quickly.

Didn't Williamson undergo season ending surgery about a week after Schilling accused him of faking it? Or was that your point?

[Smiling Joe Hesk...]

Didn't Williamson undergo season ending surgery about a week after Schilling accused him of faking it? Or was that your point?

Williamson was removed from the June 30 game with the elbow issue. He missed all of July and August while rehabbing it. He underwent elbow surgery at the end of the season after trying to pitch through it in September and October in a pretty valiant effort to be named to the '04 postseason roster. So yeah, Schilling was wrong to intimate that Williamson wasn't hurt. I believe the surgeon said that when he opened up the elbow it looked "like a grenade had gone off in there."

[smastroyin]

Williamson was removed from the June 30 game with the elbow issue. He missed all of July and August while rehabbing it. He underwent elbow surgery at the end of the season after trying to pitch through it in September and October in a pretty valiant effort to be named to the '04 postseason roster. So yeah, Schilling was wrong to intimate that Williamson wasn't hurt. I believe the surgeon said that when he opened up the elbow it looked "like a grenade had gone off in there."

How much does it suck to be Scott Williamson. I mean, he never got used in a pivotal playoff loss that went into extra innings despite the fact that he pitched his ass off in helping the team get to that point...and then a year later when the team goes ahead and wins it all he is too injured to help.

It probably doens't suck that much, I understand it, but in terms of the competitive nature of a ballplayer, that is definitely a crap turn of events.

[Smiling Joe Hesk...]

How much does it suck to be Scott Williamson. I mean, he never got used in a pivotal playoff loss that went into extra innings despite the fact that he pitched his ass off in helping the team get to that point...and then a year later when the team goes ahead and wins it all he is too injured to help.

It probably doens't suck that much, I understand it, but in terms of the competitive nature of a ballplayer, that is definitely a crap turn of events.

He also appears to be out of baseball at age 31 due to continuing arm issues. I am not shedding any tears for the guy, but it's too bad his career really ran into a brick wall. As did his elbow, apparently. And a teammate hinted to the whole world that he was a pussy.

Now I was not in the clubhouse, and I suppose it's possible that Schilling's comments to him drove Williamson into pushing himself as hard as he could to try and come back in '04. But it's got to suck to rehab like crazy for 2 months, pitch down the stretch trying to help the team out, and then have to undergo surgery and sit at home while your teammates make history without you.

He helped some in '04, though not in the postseason of course. 28.7 IP of 1.26 ERA pitching came in handy at times.

[RingoOSU]

One significant difference. Philly wasn't in the thick of a playoff race and finished 30 games out. Schilling wasn't hurting his teammates that year.
There not teammates any longer.

Right, cause one of them hasn't played a single game for Boston this season.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Williamson had similar issues when he was in Baltimore, though, with teammates suggesting he didn't want the ball and exaggerated injuries. Not to give Curt the benefit of the doubt, but it's possible that "Swilly" was the kind of guy who wouldn't play through any kind of pain and that he was also hurt, if that makes sense.

[TomRicardo]

One significant difference. Philly wasn't in the thick of a playoff race and finished 30 games out. Schilling wasn't hurting his teammates that year.

Schilling is saying there is no excuse for Manny's behavior. He should have added the addendum unless you are out of the playoff race.

There not teammates any longer.

He was bashing before he was ever traded, but you are right, Schilling is less useful now than Clement or Pavano was to their teams over the last couple of years.

[Smiling Joe Hesk...]

Williamson had similar issues when he was in Baltimore, though, with teammates suggesting he didn't want the ball and exaggerated injuries. Not to give Curt the benefit of the doubt, but it's possible that "Swilly" was the kind of guy who wouldn't play through any kind of pain and that he was also hurt, if that makes sense.

I hadn't heard the Baltimore stuff but I think that's a reasonable take if true. But given the state of Williamson's elbow over the past 4 years, it's pretty hard for me to understand how he could exaggerate his injuries. Once your elbow blows up there ain't any further to go. The guy had been pretty consistently injured throughout his career; if his teammates assumed he was faking it, that's their problem, not his IMHO.

I believe the initial confrontation with Schilling was started by Williamson complaining about his arm and elbow in the clubhouse after being removed from that June 30 game in NY and Schilling getting in his face over that. Williamson then missed 2 months, which lends a lot of credence to his complaints. Schilling gave his take about it early last year on his blog.

[NickEsasky]

Williamson had similar issues when he was in Baltimore, though, with teammates suggesting he didn't want the ball and exaggerated injuries. Not to give Curt the benefit of the doubt, but it's possible that "Swilly" was the kind of guy who wouldn't play through any kind of pain and that he was also hurt, if that makes sense.

I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the guy with 3 Tommy John surgeries when it comes to pain. The guy clearly had real injuries.

[Gehrig38]

I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the guy with 3 Tommy John surgeries when it comes to pain. The guy clearly had real injuries.

For the umpteenth time, I never questioned Scott Williamson being hurt, never. The urban legend this story became has about -2% truth to it.

He asked out of the game complaining of discomfort he himself could not locate, then came in to the training room and denied asking out of the game saying "I have no idea why he took me out."

Ya I had a problem with that.

Oh and another thing. 3 separate 'reputable' big league team doctors found absolutely nothing wrong with the elbow in question. Upon returning to his personal physician his elbow was found to be in total disarray. He then had TJ surgery and returned in less than a year didn't he?

This is the same guy who refused to fly on any airlines with the name "America" in it after 9/11........

Ya I did bitch about the FO in Philly being inept, they were. The expectation was that the front office would offer the same commitment to winning the players are expected to give. They didn't, I had a problem with that. I never begged to be traded. In fact for 3 years running that same story was run when in fact the conversations between Lee Thomas and then Ed Wade were never of the "I want out, trade me" variety.

Initially, in 1997 when I signed my extension, I went to Lee at the AS break and told him that if they were interested in moving me I would listen to offers since I had a total no trade. Nothing happened. Same thing happened the following few years and there were times when it was reported as more heated than it ever was. I can't remember everything I said but up through 2000 there was never a 'trade me now' demand from me, ever.

In 2000 the situation became a no win because imo Ed Wade was a tool and the team had zero chance of becoming competitive anytime soon. That was the first time, even though publicly it might have appeared like the 4th time, that the situation became heated.

I was such a bad guy and a 'horse's ass' in Ed Wade's mind that he found it in himself to be the first guy that phoned me this past winter regarding my free agency and extend the welcome mat to Houston. In hindsight he was fortunate beyond belief.

"I wonder what he'd say if Josh Beckett came out tomorrow and said that Schilling has been faking all year and should get out there and pitch?"

It's a hypothetical that could not happen so there is no way to answer it.

But ya, there is a lot of legitimacy to people calling me out here. I'm not around the team now nor have I been since my surgery. There is little if any input to the recent goings on that I should be offering and it's certainly something I'll remember going forward.

That being said, Manny Ramirez is going to the HOF, on the first ballot, for one and only one reason. He can square a ball up better than about every human being alive, or that has ever lived.

My question is this. How did a city so steeped in tradition and filled with blue collar people become so ok with a man sticking his middle finger up to anyone in the world that would look? The power of the home run and sweet swing is pretty amazing when you think about it. You want to rail on me here because my arm blew out and I didn't pitch this year that's fine. But to do this in a vacuum when you all read and heard the same things I did is somewhat, I don't know the word but it's something.

I am sure I have former teammates that would say less than nice things about me, don't we all? But I promise you I've never ever been a guy that would garner even 5 no votes, much less 24, in a team wide poll of "Do you want him here or not"....

Jason Varitek is arguably one of the most respected men in the game. There is literally NOTHING he does not do with 100% effort and integrity. If he was hitting 290 he'd be the most beloved person in this city. He's not and at the same time there is an almost 'anti-Jason' movement going on. The amount of hours he puts in rivals Manny when it comes to hitting.

So in a nutshell it really is about BA, HR, RBI at the end of the day right? Not saying that's right or wrong to feel one way or the other, but it is what it is right?

If you can hit when you feel like it all is forgiven.

This post has been edited by Gehrig38: Aug 6 2008, 10:08 AM

[RedOctober3829]

I am sure I have former teammates that would say less than nice things about me, don't we all? But I promise you I've never ever been a guy that would garner even 5 no votes, much less 24, in a team wide poll of "Do you want him here or not"....

Are you saying that there was a team-wide straw poll and not just the "veteran" meeting that McAdam reported? Was it really 24-0?

Reason for edit: If you can BOLD the portion you want to highlight... you can certainly DELETE the rest of it too. -Cuz

[Drocca]

So in a nutshell it really is about BA, HR, RBI at the end of the day right? Not saying that's right or wrong to feel one way or the other, but it is what it is right?

It's not all about stats (or especially those stats specifically), but it is all about winning. You gave Jason Varitek as an example. He sounds like a great guy, I'm sure he's a wonderful human being and a rock in the clubhouse. But if he's signed to a two or three year extension after this season then the odds are he's going to hurt this team's chances of winning.

I'm not the guy in the clubhouse, I'm the guy on my couch. That comes with a shitload of limitations that I'm fully aware of. But, it also comes with a more objective view in some cases. (albeit without anywhere close to perfect information)

[Smiling Joe Hesk...]

He asked out of the game complaining of discomfort he himself could not locate, then came in to the training room and denied asking out of the game saying "I have no idea why he took me out."

Ya I had a problem with that.

Oh and another thing. 3 separate 'reputable' big league team doctors found absolutely nothing wrong with the elbow in question. Upon returning to his personal physician his elbow was found to be in total disarray. He then had TJ surgery and returned in less than a year didn't he?

But he then missed the next 2 months and had surgery at the end of the season. Wouldn't that be an indication to us that he was hurt? Don't you see the confusion for us here?

Does your last sentence mean that he didn't really have TJ surgery?

[CaptainLaddie]

So in a nutshell it really is about BA, HR, RBI at the end of the day right? Not saying that's right or wrong to feel one way or the other, but it is what it is right?

VORP, WARP, and OPS+ around here.