Do Things Always Have to End Badly? Options

[John Marzano Oly...]

It seems as if every time a superstar leaves the Boston Red Sox, it always ends with acrimony and bitterness. Beginning with Carlton Fisk and continuing through the departures of Wade Boggs, Roger Clemens, Mo Vaughn, Nomar, Pedro, Johnny Damon and now Manny; it seems as if the Red Sox and their fans aren't satisfied unless their departing heroes need to leave the city wearing a black hat.

"He's too greedy"
"He's a jerk"
"He never played the game hard or was in shape"

These are all familiar refrains that are always uttered as yesterday's superstar leaves town. Some of these accusations may be true, but the majority of the time these guys are just looking for the best deal that happens to be in another city. And obviously, that hurts. I understand that.

But where does the vitriol and bitterness come from? The Boston Red Sox have continued to exist for over 100 years and have survived the loss of Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Yaz and the stars mentioned above, so we've been through this kind of thing before (hell, every team has). It should be old hat for any franchise, players aren't immortal and unless born here, most of them don't have any real strong ties to the area. We know that these guys are essentially Hessians, yet we're always whipped into a frenzy when they leave.

It seems that the current ownership has a knack for making departing players look like complete assholes, but this has been a familiar hallmark through out Red Sox history, so we can't place the blame on them. Is it the media? That's too convenient of a scape goat and while I think some blame should be placed at their collective feet, they don't deserve the lion's shar. Is it the collective nature of the region? I have no idea, but I do know that this happens and will continue to go on. Does this degree of defaming happen in other towns?

Look up and down the Red Sox roster right now, in a few years the guy that is being cheered the loudest now is going to be booed the loudest in a few years. And to add to the irony, chances are he'll be compared to the guy that was just run out of town. David Ortiz? Dustin Pedroia? Josh Beckett? A new lightening rod may need to be replaced.

I guess the point of this post is simple: it would be too naive of me to suggest that the region stop the vilification of athletes who have given their all to the team when they decide to leave town. But, I don't think that it should be such a knee jerk reaction.

This post has been edited by John Marzano Olympic Hero: Jul 28 2008, 02:46 PM

[Reverend]

I know that references to non-baseball sports on the main board are generally frowned upon, but I think JMOH's question is a really interesting one that requires at least a mention of the fact that we have a few recent (last 10 years) examples of beloved super stars leaving Boston's other pro franchises on good, if not great terms with the fans.

That suggests that this embitterment about leaving stars might be a Red Sox specific phenomenon in Boston. But, as noted, we know that we are talking about different ownership and management groups with the Sox. On the other hand, if it's "the media," why is it a Red Sox specific phenomenon?

[mr_smith02]

First, great post.

My cousin and I were discussing this exact issue at Fenway on Saturday as we were trying to decide who would be the next player to have his number retired by the Sox. We both noted that the players we loved the most over the past two decades left under nasty terms (Nomar, Mo Vaughn, Clemens, Boggs, Pedro, Damon and so on). We came up with Pesky (who I know does not meet the unwritten rule of being in the Hall of Fame), but at least he's a symbol of Sox baseball, that I'd have to guess all associated with the team would agree, is respected, revered and worthy of recognition.

Who's the last player to start and finish his career in Boston? Evans? Rice? I'd love to see one of these young new guys stick around and retire in a Sox uniform without the fans/media villifying them.

This post has been edited by mr_smith02: Jul 28 2008, 02:46 PM

[Jnai]

I know that references to non-baseball sports on the main board are generally frowned upon, but I think JMOH's question is a really interesting one that requires at least a mention of the fact that we have a few recent (last 10 years) examples of beloved super stars leaving Boston's other pro franchises on good, if not great terms with the fans.

What's a good example of a hall-of-fame caliber player for a Boston sports team who leaves just after the prime of his career, and leaves on good terms?

Not trying to be a contrarian, I'm just curious what your examples would be here.

[CaptainLaddie]

Who's the last player to start and finish his career in Boston? Evans? Rice? I'd love to see one of these young new guys stick around and retire in a Sox uniform without the fans/media villifying them.

Evans finished his career in Baltimore.

[Fred not Lynn]

One factor might be that wise FO's don't let aging stars decline on their dime, and FO's see decline coming long before athletes do.

Athlete's job is to hold off decline as long as he can, and to get the most he can out of himself as he ages he's got to deny to himself and to everyone else that it is happening. Basically you have FO sending the message, "Dude, you aren't going to be what you used to be in the next however many years", and athletes replying, "Fuck you FO, not only am I gonna be as good, I'm gonna be BETTER". Both traits are good traits, I want a FO that's willing to set emotional attachment aside to make the right decisions, and I want athletes who have absolute belief in themselves -- but when it comes to making a clean break, those traits inhrently work against each other.

[5belongstoGeorge]

1) Roger is the only one I hate. I hope that never changes.
2) Other dudes that went to the MFY are "just another Yankee", and deserve to be treated as such.
3) Nomar reportedly turned down 4yrs/$60M (DOH!) before I started to dislike him.
4) The odd thing, and the thing that I don't understand is that many of Boston's brightest stars get treated poorly while they are still here too.


For the record, I have nothing but unconditional love for Manny Ramirez.

[Lose Remerswaal]

What's a good example of a hall-of-fame caliber player for a Boston sports team who leaves just after the prime of his career, and leaves on good terms?

Not trying to be a contrarian, I'm just curious what your examples would be here.

Ray Bourque comes to mind.

To a lesser extent Drew Bledsoe

[jkempa]

I hear what is being said here and I agree with it for the most part. However, don't forget that there are a number of former players who still get a very warm welcome here who have departed for whatever reason. Go back and look at the game when Pedro pitched at Fenway for the Mets. Or when Trot Nixon came back last year. Orlando Cabrera. Derek Lowe. I think anyone who was a part of a WS champion (2004 or 2007) and plays for anyone but the Yankees is still going to be treated well in Boston. And I think that even goes for Manny too, wherever he may end up.

Long-winded way of saying that much of this is media-created BS, unless you play for the Yankees.

[bsj]

What is the definition of "good terms"? Is it from the perspective of the people left behind? Or from that of the departing athlete? Are we talking with the ownership? Or is with the fans enough?

I don't think many Sox fans think less of Pedro Martinez for taking what was clearly a better (and clearly a misguided) offer to come to New York. Now, whether or not he had hard feelings for Boston I don't know. I also think that when he left, most Patriots fans offered nothing but good wishes to Drew Bledsoe on his way out the door, although clearly, when he is replaced a player most consider to be among the best of all time, thats an easy thing to do. Ray Bourque had a celebration rally in Boston for winning the Cup in Colorado. Although clearly, he was way into the later stages of his career, and, had he left 5 years earlier, I doubt he would have received such a reaction.

I really think that it depends on the context and the situation. If a player is the consummate professional on his way out the door, and just leaves for a significantly better offer....or is forced out by management....or the team went on to better things simply because that player left....I think that the fans and the player will always share a mutual affection for one another.

This post has been edited by bsj: Jul 28 2008, 03:00 PM

[Myt1]

While there was always a vocal minority of Pedro haters among the fanbase (and disproportionately more in the media) he was welcomed back with open arms by both the front office and the fans. I think Manny will probably get much the same treatment, at least from the fans. I hope their departures are similar (i.e. Hall of Famers beginning to decline leaving following great performances in Sox WS wins).

This post has been edited by Myt1: Jul 28 2008, 03:08 PM

[dcmissle]

How far back?

1. Almost any of the Celtics would qualify for a soft landing, save tragic death.

2. Bruins -- until relatively recently, there was a strong tradition of people leaving on decent terms. Orr, Esposito, et al. There was sadness with some of those departures -- Orr, for example, on shattered knees and a shadow of what he once was. But little vitriol.

3. Ditto Pats. Terry Glenn was ugly. Givens too. Bledsoe could have been better but was nothing like what we're seeing with Favre and 49ers saw with Montana. Pats parted ways with a score of talented players from the 70s, mid-to-late 80s, and more recently on solid terms. A couple of uglies (Clayborn?), but on the whole not bad considering the whack jobs who ran the franchise.

On the other hand, there always seems to have been at least one designated villian on the Sox -- among the press and fans -- for as long as i've been watching them. And that likely will continue -- Paps warming in the pen for Manny. Maybe that just underscores baseball's importance.

This post has been edited by dcmissle: Jul 28 2008, 03:10 PM

[E5 Yaz]

I guess the point of this post is simple: it would be too naive of me to suggest that the region stop the vilification of athletes who have given their all to the team when they decide to leave town. But, I don't think that it should be such a knee jerk reaction.

I think a case could be made that while Manny has given a great deal to the Red Sox, he has not given "his all" and that the times of his trangressions have been played out in public. I also think that there are cases where the athlete hasn't been villified immediately, such as Clemens or Mo Vaughn, and the failure was seen to be part of management.

The anger, in no small part, comes from the perception of greed. If Manny's displeaure at the moment comes from his looking at being forced to accept $20 million next season, I have no sympathy for him. He signed the contract; the Red Sox don't owe him more money or rerspect or anything else. They've paid him $160 million.

It's not the fans fault, or management fault, or player fault. It's the cirumstances where two sets of millionaires are arguing over the price of peanuts, riling the emotions of fans who don't like to shell out for those peanuts.

In Boston, these things matter, because baseball (and other sports) are important. It comes with the territory

[Skins24]

Evans finished his career in Baltimore.

That's what I remembered so I checked his baseball reference page to verify my otherwise faulty memory and noticed he had a .393 OBP his last year in 100+ games. I have to think with today's OBP-centric game, he would have gotten quite a few offers to play somewhere in 1992.

In 1992, teams looked at a 270 average and 6 HRs.

This post has been edited by Skins24: Jul 28 2008, 03:27 PM

[Rudy Pemberton]

I honestly don't think that it's nearly as bad as people think. How many ex-Sox have actively been booed at Fenway while playing for another team? To me, it seems like the guys who get booed are really only those who have gone to the Yankees. The reception for Clemens was mixed until he joined them. Guys like Millar, Lowe, Roberts, Cabrera, etc. all received (and still receive) nice ovations.

[John Marzano Oly...]

I honestly don't think that it's nearly as bad as people think. How many ex-Sox have actively been booed at Fenway while playing for another team? To me, it seems like the guys who get booed are really only those who have gone to the Yankees.

You're completely missing the point, it's not that they get booed when they come back (they don't) it's just that when they have one foot out the door there is a gigantic shit storm stirred up about what a jerk the player is. Why is this needed?

If the FO thinks that trading Manny Ramirez will make the Sox a better team, do it. Don't start leaking things out like he doesn't wipe his ass with toilet paper. (True, BTW) Just make the trade, there's no need to rip someone down so you'll feel better about it the next day. It's what junior high school girls do.

[koufax32]

Baseball has always been known as America's Pastime. It is unique because of the way it connects us to the past. For many of us who hail from New England it connects us to our past. Maybe it reminds us of the good times we had in little league. Maybe, like me, it reminds of countless summer days of neighborhood wiffleball. For many, Red Sox baseball is one of the few passions that follows them through life. It is more than a hobby or a way to enjoy a New England summer evening from the back porch. Red Sox baseball is unique because it is part of our culture. It is part of the fabric that makes us who we are. It is ingrained in us as much as our political or religious heritage. Nobody asks an Irish-Catholic Bostonian why they attend mass. They don't need to. The answer is simply "because." Why do so many New Englanders love the Red Sox? Because. It's part of who we are.
Love is fickle though. A teenage boy may proclaim his love to a girl only to become angry five minutes later when his overtures a turned down. He bought her a necklace and now she won't even reciprocate with a kiss? We look at this example and laugh at the immaturity of it all. Parents or teachers would look and say the boy never loved her in the first place. In his mind he displayed a new level of committment. Couldn't she do the same? On an emotional level loving someone can be measured by how much of yourself you are willing to give to them. The highest level of human love illustrates this very point in "forsaking all others" and "till death do us part." It's that same committment that causes a soldier to throw himself on a grenade to save his friends. When someone commits themself to another they open themselves up. More importantly they give their heart. When that same level of committment and openness is not reciprocated embarassment, frustration, and anger are the inevitable results. The girl who gets dumped will destroy all of her pictures of her boyfriend. Why? The level of committment she gave to him wasn't matched. It will make her think twice about doing it again.
All Red Sox fans have been dumped many times. The old timers were dumped by Pesky holding the ball, Joe Morgan's late inning double, and Bob Gibson's slider. My generation has been dumped by Bucky Dent, game 6, and Grady Little's decision-making. We think that makes us tougher. It does but it also makes us ripe for the rebound. That rebound happens every year when the same lover returns around Vantine's Day with fresh roses from Fort Myers. Somehow we are dragged back into another relationship.
Red Sox players, therefore, become more than "laundry fillers" to us. They become a part of that love affair. When they leave it hurts us because their level of committment isn't what we expected. We, in effect, are like the girl who gets dumped. We spend years cheering for players, then giving them nicknames, then get to know their personality by how they play and talk. We refer to them, not by their full names, but by their first names. That type of committment doesn't happen in other sports. We cheer for Tom Brady, Kevin Garnett, and others. We committ ourselves to Manny, Pedro, Pudge, Papi, Yaz, and Dewey. When the loved one leaves Boston becomes a city of jilted lovers. In O. Henry's Gift of the Magi, what if the husband rejected his wife's gift? That's was what happened when Roger took shots at Boston on his way out. It's what happened when Johnny Damon left for the cheerleader captain. In our own twisted way, we basically say "I love you. That's why I have to kill you."
Does that make Red Sox fans psychotic? I prefer to call it committed passion. Other towns may not react the same way because they don't love the same way. Their only level of committment is "we are in this together" with their players. For many Boston players and their fans that committment level goes beyond. Why the vitrol? Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.


EDIT: Sorry. I'm bored and my wife is visting family for the whole week.

This post has been edited by koufax32: Jul 28 2008, 03:48 PM

[mabrowndog]

Obviously, it wasn't always like this. Pro baseball players routinely stuck with the teams that signed them -- because they had no choice in the matter. For the most part they accepted their paychecks, with whatever salaries ownership deemed appropriate, and left the game quietly with their dignity intact.

But since the dawn of free agency 30+ years ago, the rise in the power of superstar players has coincided with the growing influence of player agents, the erosion of team control over their rosters, and the exponential escalation of salaries. All of these factors cater to the emergence of ego and greed.

Most recently, many athletes have grown up coddled and adored, receiving glaring media attention at an early age and fostering an expectation of special treatment and exclusivity. So when they don't get their way, they're not prepared to accept it.

Add in an emotive and reactive fan base, and an omnipresent press corps that knows how to play up and perfectly spin player/team conflicts to their working class audience, and it seems only normal that such conflicts arise. Frankly, I'm surprised if ANY relationships end pleasantly.

Still, JMHO's list of Sox players who departed Boston with besmirched reputations is pretty alarming. And I think the groundwork has been laid for Schilling's name to be added to it, though I'm sure he'd deny it. One Sox player's departure that I believe will absolutely end well is that of Tim Wakefield, though it's hard to call him a superstar.

So why did players of yesteryear often leave happy -- or at least without any apparent animosity toward the teams that had held their exclusive rights? One reason is that all players faced the same restrictive chain -- this is the way the game had always been, and it's the way things were done. Players didn't make waves because there was seemingly nothing to gain. Another reason is that most of them were working class grunts just like the fans, making a relative pittance as ballplayers and working regular jobs in the off-season to support their families. That made it hard for a salivating media member to spin the economic gap, whereas today there are constant comparisons of pro athlete salaries to those of teachers, soldiers, firefighters and police officers.

In the case of Ted Williams, there was no need to spin that. Ted, being vociferous and outspoken, gave the press corps plenty of other ammunition. Writers like Dave Egan and Austen Lake gleefully fanned the flames and helped sell a lot of papers. Yet none of the rancor extended from Ted toward his employer or vice versa. By all reputable accounts, there were no salary disputes between him and Tom Yawkey. In fact, prior to his final season, Ted asked Yawkey to decrease his salary from a league-high $125,000 to $95,000. Think the players' association would have ever embraced that move?

3. Ditto Pats. Terry Glenn was ugly. Givens too. Bledsoe could have been better but was nothing like what we're seeing with Favre and 49ers saw with Montana. Pats parted ways with a score of talented players from the 70s, mid-to-late 80s, and more recently on solid terms. A couple of uglies (Clayborn?), but on the whole not bad considering the whack jobs who ran the franchise.

I'd add Lawyer "You can't feed your family off of Super Bowl Rings" Milloy to the list. He most certainly shot his way out of town, and uttered that exact quote during a WEEI interview with Dale & Neumy.

This post has been edited by mabrowndog: Jul 28 2008, 03:47 PM

[Reverend]

I hear what is being said here and I agree with it for the most part. However, don't forget that there are a number of former players who still get a very warm welcome here who have departed for whatever reason. Go back and look at the game when Pedro pitched at Fenway for the Mets. Or when Trot Nixon came back last year. Orlando Cabrera. Derek Lowe..

I honestly don't think that it's nearly as bad as people think. How many ex-Sox have actively been booed at Fenway while playing for another team? To me, it seems like the guys who get booed are really only those who have gone to the Yankees. The reception for Clemens was mixed until he joined them. Guys like Millar, Lowe, Roberts, Cabrera, etc. all received (and still receive) nice ovations.

Interesting thoughts, but doesn't this actually suggest that solid non-stars are treated better than stars (and, perhaps especially, waning stars) that leave? I can understand why there would be less vilification for these guys as compared with stars and former stars. But this isn't a matter, but rather support as opposed to vilification.

Is it the large sums of money, perhaps? Like, a solid contributor who helps bring a championship can't be blamed for cashing in on his temporary fame as he's not as rich, but an already rich super-star doing the same thing suggests greed?

And to respond to Jnai, Bourque and Bledsoe were those I were thinking of off the top of my head. Past their prime, sure, but each was huge, huge, huge in Boston. Somehow, I can't imagine a huge, broad based movement of support for, say, Pedroia to go play for the Diamond Backs after 21 years in Boston so he could finally achieve his dream and win a...

...never mind. Bad analogy.

[Rocco Graziosa]

You're completely missing the point, it's not that they get booed when they come back (they don't) it's just that when they have one foot out the door there is a gigantic shit storm stirred up about what a jerk the player is. Why is this needed?

If the FO thinks that trading Manny Ramirez will make the Sox a better team, do it. Don't start leaking things out like he doesn't wipe his ass with toilet paper. (True, BTW) Just make the trade, there's no need to rip someone down so you'll feel better about it the next day. It's what junior high school girls do.

Have the Sox ripped Ramirez? I think they got pissed when he accused them of not being forthcoming in contract negotiations, but other than that they've been pretty tight lipped. I think they honestly thought Ramirez was tanking when the took Friday off, so I wouldn't expect them to rush to his defense there. If they're silence spoke volumes, so be it I guess.

The anger, in no small part, comes from the perception of greed. If Manny's displeaure at the moment comes from his looking at being forced to accept $20 million next season, I have no sympathy for him. He signed the contract; the Red Sox don't owe him more money or rerspect or anything else. They've paid him $160 million.

It's not the fans fault, or management fault, or player fault. It's the cirumstances where two sets of millionaires are arguing over the price of peanuts, riling the emotions of fans who don't like to shell out for those peanuts.

I think this is the crux of it. When players get pissed about a future contract, fans (and management) get pissed. Real pissed. Inevitably, the player, who usually isn't the smartest knife in the drawer to begin with, takes his gripes to the press and things degenerate from there. Myself, I have no sympathy EVER for an athlete who is dissatisfied with his contract situation........ a contract HE signed. That obviously includes a player that is upset that his TEAM option isn't picked up. When it "goes bad" for stars in this town, it almost always has to do with their contract, and usually a lack there of. Thats whats happening here. Again.

This post has been edited by Rocco Graziosa: Jul 28 2008, 03:54 PM