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> Manny Ramirez: Average Left Fielder?
BosoxBob
post Feb 1 2006, 01:02 PM
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Posts: 1,682
From: San Diego, CA




David Pinto recently posted his Probabilistic Model of Range figures for 2005 Left Fielders, and lo and behold, Manny is not only not rated as far and away the worst left fielder, but he's not even at the bottom of the list. Guys like Pat Burrell, Miguel Cabrera, David Delucci, and Ricky Ledee rated even worse. According to Pinto's two models, Manny cost the Sox somewhere between 12 and 15 outs last year. Now the conversion of outs to runs is not up yet over at the Chronicle of the Lads site, but I expect it will show Manny at about -7 runs. The startling thing about this is that it is vastly different than what UZR showed (I believe MGL reported it to be -47 runs).

Now consider that Manny led all major league outfielders with 17 assists last year. According to my calculations (using the rate of assists per inning played for all LFers), Manny's expected number of assists would be 8. That's 9 additional outs that Manny was responsible for. And given that many of those outs occurred at the plate or at third, it's likely that they very nearly offset the -7 run differential for range. So based on his overall play, Manny may well have been an average left fielder last year. Amazing...
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- BosoxBob   Manny Ramirez: Average Left Fielder?   Feb 1 2006, 01:02 PM
- - URISoxFan   I just posted this over there, so I'm kinda do...   Feb 1 2006, 01:11 PM
- - Paul M   My opinion is Manny's helped by Fenway and hur...   Feb 1 2006, 01:19 PM
- - PedroKsBambino   I find that -47 number to fail the straight-face t...   Feb 1 2006, 01:20 PM
|- - satyadaimoku   QUOTE (PedroKsBambino @ Feb 1 2006, 01:20 PM)...   Feb 1 2006, 01:29 PM
- - templeUsox   To me, this says Manny is a below average fielder....   Feb 1 2006, 01:21 PM
|- - Todd Benzinger   QUOTE (templeUsox @ Feb 1 2006, 12:21 PM)To m...   Feb 1 2006, 02:24 PM
- - TheoShmeo   I know that this may be considered heresy by some,...   Feb 1 2006, 01:25 PM
- - Todd Benzinger   I mentioned this in another thread, but don't ...   Feb 1 2006, 01:31 PM
|- - finnVT   QUOTE (Todd Benzinger @ Feb 1 2006, 01:31 PM)...   Feb 1 2006, 01:48 PM
||- - Spacemans Bong   QUOTE (finnVT @ Feb 1 2006, 11:48 AM)I think ...   Feb 2 2006, 12:42 AM
|- - BosoxBob   QUOTE (Todd Benzinger @ Feb 1 2006, 10:31 AM)...   Feb 1 2006, 02:22 PM
- - finnVT   Also interesting from these numbers are two recent...   Feb 1 2006, 01:43 PM
- - Rough Carrigan   Just one fan's perception, but Manny always se...   Feb 1 2006, 02:17 PM
- - hytem   A couple of points re Manny as an outfielder: 1) ...   Feb 1 2006, 02:25 PM
|- - Smiling Joe Hesketh   QUOTE (hytem @ Feb 1 2006, 02:25 PM)A couple ...   Feb 1 2006, 02:34 PM
|- - hytem   QUOTE (Smiling Joe Hesketh @ Feb 1 2006, 03:3...   Feb 1 2006, 08:05 PM
|- - hytem   QUOTE (Smiling Joe Hesketh @ Feb 1 2006, 03:3...   Feb 1 2006, 08:52 PM
- - BTownBeckett   Has anyone tried to create a defensive metric numb...   Feb 1 2006, 03:47 PM
|- - behindthepen   QUOTE (BTownBeckett @ Feb 1 2006, 03:47 PM)Ha...   Feb 1 2006, 04:00 PM
- - Bradyblack   QUOTE (BosoxBob @ Feb 1 2006, 06:02 PM)Now co...   Feb 1 2006, 04:11 PM
- - AZBlue   I have always believed that David Ortiz should be ...   Feb 1 2006, 04:26 PM
|- - Smiling Joe Hesketh   QUOTE (AZBlue @ Feb 1 2006, 04:26 PM)I have a...   Feb 1 2006, 04:30 PM
||- - smastroyin   QUOTE (Smiling Joe Hesketh @ Feb 1 2006, 04:3...   Feb 1 2006, 04:38 PM
|- - smastroyin   QUOTE (AZBlue @ Feb 1 2006, 04:26 PM)For thos...   Feb 1 2006, 04:36 PM
- - Buck Showalter   I think Gammons said it best: "he's a ...   Feb 1 2006, 04:30 PM
|- - Pumpsie   QUOTE (Buck Showalter @ Feb 1 2006, 04:30 PM)...   Feb 1 2006, 08:12 PM
||- - hytem   QUOTE (Pumpsie @ Feb 1 2006, 09:12 PM)Gammons...   Feb 1 2006, 09:11 PM
|- - Devizier   Why is such a big deal being made out of the fact ...   Feb 1 2006, 09:06 PM
- - Jim Gosger   I don't know much about these defensive metric...   Feb 1 2006, 04:31 PM
|- - epraz   QUOTE (Jim Gosger @ Feb 1 2006, 05:31 PM)I do...   Feb 1 2006, 05:36 PM
||- - Kevin Mortons Ghost   So if two different sets of defensive metrics, eac...   Feb 1 2006, 07:06 PM
||- - WarningTrackPower   QUOTE (Kevin Mortons Ghost @ Feb 1 2006, 07:0...   Feb 1 2006, 09:39 PM
|- - OttoC   QUOTE (Jim Gosger @ Feb 1 2006, 04:31 PM)I do...   Feb 1 2006, 07:48 PM
|- - YAZ   QUOTE (Jim Gosger @ Feb 1 2006, 04:31 PM)I do...   Feb 1 2006, 08:02 PM
- - Pandemonium67   QUOTE I have always believed that David Ortiz shou...   Feb 1 2006, 05:23 PM
- - biollante   Thank you for posting this: "So if two diffe...   Feb 1 2006, 07:28 PM
- - Randy Kutchers Mullet   Fris and I had a pretty in-depth conversation abou...   Feb 1 2006, 07:51 PM
- - Div School Sox Fan   Dick Allen had a season in the minor leagues where...   Feb 1 2006, 10:25 PM
|- - OttoC   QUOTE (Div School Sox Fan @ Feb 1 2006, 10:25...   Feb 1 2006, 11:01 PM
|- - Worst Trade Evah   QUOTE (OttoC @ Feb 1 2006, 11:01 PM)To the bs...   Feb 2 2006, 12:35 PM
- - philly sox fan   BIS is going to publish a book called The Fielding...   Feb 1 2006, 10:49 PM
|- - nhfred   QUOTE (philly sox fan @ Feb 1 2006, 10:49 PM)...   Feb 2 2006, 12:18 AM
|- - Devizier   QUOTE (nhfred @ Feb 2 2006, 05:18 AM)This det...   Feb 2 2006, 05:42 AM
- - templeUsox   Is there anything to be said for invisible range? ...   Feb 1 2006, 10:55 PM
|- - philly sox fan   QUOTE (templeUsox @ Feb 1 2006, 10:55 PM)Is t...   Feb 1 2006, 11:13 PM
|- - bowiac   QUOTE (philly sox fan @ Feb 1 2006, 11:13 PM)...   Feb 2 2006, 12:17 AM
|- - philly sox fan   QUOTE (bowiac @ Feb 2 2006, 12:17 AM)Starting...   Feb 2 2006, 08:11 AM
- - carygug   This may have already been posted here, but I thou...   Feb 2 2006, 01:51 AM
|- - bowiac   QUOTE (carygug @ Feb 2 2006, 01:51 AM)And it ...   Feb 2 2006, 02:42 AM
|- - OttoC   QUOTE (carygug @ Feb 2 2006, 01:51 AM)[...] A...   Feb 2 2006, 08:20 AM
|- - Eric Van   QUOTE (carygug @ Feb 2 2006, 01:51 AM)And it ...   Feb 2 2006, 03:50 PM
|- - Frisbetarian   I'm late to the discussion, but would like to ...   Feb 3 2006, 06:10 PM
- - Pandemonium67   I suppose this is simplistic, but couldn't Fen...   Feb 2 2006, 03:42 AM
|- - philly sox fan   QUOTE (Pandemonium67 @ Feb 2 2006, 03:42 AM)I...   Feb 2 2006, 08:08 AM
|- - smastroyin   QUOTE (philly sox fan @ Feb 2 2006, 08:08 AM)...   Feb 2 2006, 08:51 AM
- - CaptainLaddie   If I have one major weakness when it comes to look...   Feb 2 2006, 04:32 AM
- - Pumpsie   No left fielder in Boston is going to ever have a ...   Feb 2 2006, 07:18 AM
|- - Smiling Joe Hesketh   QUOTE (Pumpsie @ Feb 2 2006, 07:18 AM)No left...   Feb 2 2006, 02:04 PM
|- - BosoxBob   QUOTE (Smiling Joe Hesketh @ Feb 2 2006, 11:0...   Feb 2 2006, 02:27 PM
|- - Pumpsie   QUOTE (BosoxBob @ Feb 2 2006, 02:27 PM)I...   Feb 2 2006, 03:05 PM
- - OttoC   Retrosheet data has an accompanying for hit locati...   Feb 2 2006, 11:04 AM
- - BosoxBob   Well, color me confused. In my original post here,...   Feb 2 2006, 01:52 PM
|- - OttoC   QUOTE (BosoxBob @ Feb 2 2006, 01:52 PM)On to ...   Feb 2 2006, 04:48 PM
- - Pandemonium67   QUOTE This is part of the problem with evaluating ...   Feb 2 2006, 02:28 PM
- - Rudy Pemberton   I don't think you can compare data for even O...   Feb 2 2006, 02:33 PM
- - BosoxBob   In a parallel discussion over at the Baseball Thin...   Feb 2 2006, 02:45 PM
- - PedroKsBambino   This is going to sound nit-picky but I am not sure...   Feb 2 2006, 02:45 PM
|- - smastroyin   QUOTE (PedroKsBambino @ Feb 2 2006, 02:45 PM)...   Feb 2 2006, 02:59 PM
- - PedroKsBambino   Oh, I agree there's real questions about the m...   Feb 2 2006, 03:13 PM
|- - smastroyin   QUOTE (PedroKsBambino @ Feb 2 2006, 03:13 PM)...   Feb 2 2006, 03:32 PM
|- - Devizier   Since I lack the degree of interest and time requi...   Feb 3 2006, 04:10 AM
- - Pumpsie   You would think that the people deciding how hard ...   Feb 2 2006, 03:14 PM
- - Charley Weir   QUOTE On the road, it's a different story. The...   Feb 3 2006, 01:36 PM
- - BosoxBob   For those who are interested in reading more about...   Feb 3 2006, 05:10 PM
|- - Eric Van   QUOTE (BosoxBob @ Feb 3 2006, 05:10 PM)For th...   Feb 3 2006, 05:27 PM
|- - philly sox fan   QUOTE (Eric Van @ Feb 3 2006, 05:27 PM)The SI...   Feb 3 2006, 05:30 PM
|- - DSG   QUOTE (Eric Van @ Feb 3 2006, 06:27 PM)The SI...   Feb 3 2006, 06:54 PM
|- - BosoxBob   QUOTE (DSG @ Feb 3 2006, 03:54 PM)BTW, Manny...   Feb 3 2006, 07:25 PM
- - Randy Kutchers Mullet   I read the two Gassko articles today, and while in...   Feb 4 2006, 12:24 AM
- - bowiac   QUOTE This isn't like OPS, where it's a mu...   Feb 4 2006, 01:43 AM
|- - Frisbetarian   Thinking over my previous post last night, it occu...   Feb 4 2006, 07:06 AM
|- - philly sox fan   QUOTE (bowiac @ Feb 4 2006, 01:43 AM)First of...   Feb 4 2006, 09:25 AM
|- - bowiac   QUOTE (philly sox fan @ Feb 4 2006, 09:25 AM)...   Feb 4 2006, 10:10 AM
- - Pumpsie   QUOTE Back to the subject for a moment, Manny was ...   Feb 4 2006, 10:32 AM
- - PedroKsBambino   FWIW, the current thread on DSG's comparison a...   Feb 4 2006, 11:14 AM
- - DSG   A lot of good questions are being brought up here....   Feb 4 2006, 03:15 PM
|- - Eric Van   QUOTE (DSG @ Feb 4 2006, 03:15 PM)The year-to...   Feb 4 2006, 07:15 PM
|- - Vermonter At Large   I've looked at different fielding systems - wh...   Feb 6 2006, 06:34 PM
|- - bowiac   QUOTE (Vermonter At Large @ Feb 6 2006, 06:34...   Feb 6 2006, 09:54 PM
|- - Vermonter At Large   QUOTE (bowiac @ Feb 6 2006, 10:54 PM)It's...   Feb 6 2006, 10:38 PM
|- - Devizier   QUOTE (bowiac @ Feb 7 2006, 02:54 AM)3. In ge...   Feb 7 2006, 04:04 AM
|- - bowiac   QUOTE (Devizier @ Feb 7 2006, 04:04 AM)Maybe ...   Feb 7 2006, 04:10 AM
|- - Devizier   QUOTE (bowiac @ Feb 7 2006, 09:10 AM)A scout...   Feb 7 2006, 04:26 AM
|- - Vermonter At Large   QUOTE (bowiac @ Feb 7 2006, 05:10 AM)Here...   Feb 7 2006, 07:29 AM
- - Corsi Combover   QUOTE (carygug @ Feb 2 2006, 01:51 AM)Would t...   Feb 4 2006, 05:00 PM
|- - templeUsox   See MO   Feb 4 2006, 05:17 PM
|- - OttoC   QUOTE (Corsi Combover @ Feb 4 2006, 05:00 PM)...   Feb 4 2006, 06:47 PM
- - BosoxBob   You can see immediate problems with Tango's ...   Feb 6 2006, 11:15 PM
- - Worst Trade Evah   I have to agree with bowiac here: I never really u...   Feb 7 2006, 07:46 AM
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