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> "Hi, I'm the Red Sox and I have a bullpen problem"
Skins24
post May 29 2008, 10:48 PM
Post #41


twenty foreskins
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QUOTE(DieHard3 @ May 30 2008, 03:12 AM) [snapback]1592804[/snapback]
He was a closer in college,


Not sure if that is true. The only college stats I can find for him show that he started 16 out of 17 games, earning one save in the game he didn't start. I'm not sure whether he was a closer in the Cape League.

Anyway, there is no harm in him working out of the Boston pen this year.

On ESPN, Jim Callis and Keith Law have been very high on him as a RP.


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yep
post May 29 2008, 11:12 PM
Post #42



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QUOTE(DieHard3 @ May 29 2008, 09:40 PM) [snapback]1592680[/snapback]
...The pitchers they have in the pen have been inconsistent...

At the risk of stating the obvious, inconsistency and relief pitching go together like fish and bicycles. With very few exceptions, the most consistent relievers are those with the stuff to be starters. Which poses pretty obvious dilemmas.

The surest way to get consistent relief pitching is usually to use a starter, or someone who could be a starter. Dedicated-purpose relief pitchers who are consistently consistent tend to be called closers and can be hard to come by.

Seventh- and eighth-inning difficulties are a baseball-wide issue. Pitchers who can reliably throw quality innings are in short supply and most of them are starters. In an era where starters who go past seven innings are a rarity, and where few teams have more than one or two really good relievers, the bullpen is a nightly question mark. Obviously everyone would like to have the ability to shut down the last two (or three or four) innings of every game, but the resources to do that are scarce, and allocating them properly is a challenge, especially if your starters are not going deep into games.

The premise that the Red Sox could use another good reliever or two is not wrong, but it's kind of like saying that Irving Halloran of South Bloomfield, Indiana could use $250,000. The Red Sox could move Buchholz to the pen, and he would probably be pretty reliable. Or maybe they could stage a blockbuster trade to acquire a lockdown closer for $6m. There's no way that, say, Eric Gagne could possibly be worse than Julian Tavarez, right?

There are not a lot of attractive options in the relief-pitching market. Pitchers are hard to predict, and relief pitchers are extra hard to predict. It's hard to even find good predictive measures for relief pitchers until they've proven themselves to the point where they've become elite closers. 50 games into the season, you're looking at, what, 30 IP for a typical reliever? The amount of variance in that sample size is huge.


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Buzzkill Pauley
post May 30 2008, 09:55 AM
Post #43



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QUOTE(OttoC @ May 28 2008, 06:45 PM) [snapback]1589398[/snapback]
The Red Sox bullpen is 11th in lowest OPS in the AL. They are second in most blown saves. They are 11th in the league in ERA during saves situations and 10th in OPS during save situations.

And, the team leads their league in run support for their relievers. The fact that other teams have based performers in their pens doesn't seem germane to the question of how well or poorly the Red Sox relievers are performing.


Over the first two months, I agree that they have been hard to watch, but with the volatility of bullpens, I think it's more difficult to assess how to fix the problem... Case in point - excellent to note about the save situations, Otto, but six of their 9 blown saves are attributed to Oki and Paps, and those are expressly who the Sox have to build the rest of the pen around. Hansen, MDC, and Snyder each blew the only save opp given them this year. Timlin, of all people, has converted the one chance he was given to pick up a save this year.

Here's what is hopefully an interesting crunch of B-ref gamelog data for the Pen:
[table=Sox Pen by game situations] [tr][td=25]Reliever[/td][td=6]OPS[/td][td=6]Games[/td][td=6]Games w/RA[/td][td=6]Games 2+RA[/td][td=6]Games w/IR[/td][td=6]Games w/IS[/td][td=6]2+IR and <2IS[/td][td=6]IS and RA[/td][/tr][tr][td=25]Papelbon[/td][td=6].588[/td][td=6]23[/td][td=6]6[/td][td=6]4[/td][td=6]5[/td][td=6]0[/td][td=6]2/2[/td][td=6]0[/td][/tr][tr][td=25]Okajima[/td][td=6].552[/td][td=6]21[/td][td=6]2[/td][td=6]0[/td][td=6]7[/td][td=6]6[/td][td=6]1/4[/td][td=6]1[/td][/tr][tr][td=25]Delcarmen[/td][td=6].798[/td][td=6]24[/td][td=6]10[/td][td=6]2[/td][td=6]11[/td][td=6]5[/td][td=6]4/6[/td][td=6]3[/td][/tr][tr][td=25]Lopez[/td][td=6].715[/td][td=6]25[/td][td=6]7[/td][td=6]2[/td][td=6]13[/td][td=6]2[/td][td=6]5/5[/td][td=6]1[/td][/tr][tr][td=25]Aardsma[/td][td=6].694[/td][td=6]22[/td][td=6]6[/td][td=6]2[/td][td=6]6[/td][td=6]2[/td][td=6]2/3[/td][td=6]0[/td][/tr][tr][td=25]Hansen[/td][td=6].775[/td][td=6]9[/td][td=6]6[/td][td=6]4[/td][td=6]5[/td][td=6]1[/td][td=6]0/0[/td][td=6]0[/td][/tr][tr][td=25]Timlin[/td][td=6].922[/td][td=6]18[/td][td=6]8[/td][td=6]2[/td][td=6]3[/td][td=6]0[/td][td=6]0/0[/td][td=6]0[/td][/tr][tr][td=25]Tavarez[/td][td=6].829[/td][td=6]9[/td][td=6]5[/td][td=6]3[/td][td=6]5[/td][td=6]1[/td][td=6]2/2[/td][td=6]1[/td][/tr][tr][td=25]Corey[/td][td=6]1.060[/td][td=6]7[/td][td=6]3[/td][td=6]2[/td][td=6]3[/td][td=6]1[/td][td=6]0/1[/td][td=6]1[/td][/tr][tr][td=25]Snyder[/td][td=6]1.333[/td][td=6]2[/td][td=6]2[/td][td=6]2[/td][td=6]0[/td][td=6]0[/td][td=6]0/0[/td][td=6]0[/td][/tr][/table]

Oki has the lowest OPS of all the pen, but has allowed IRs to score in 6 of 7 chances. That sucks, but he's the guy who gets put into the worst of those situations, and his success there was possibly his greatest contribution to the team last year. Unfortunate that OPS hasn't translated when guys are already on base for him this year.

Also, knowing that MDC had the flu and was pretty much PUP for his two crappy appearances in Toronto -- if you take those appearances out he's got a line of .263/.341/.368. Again, whattya do about that? A .709 OPS would put him right with Aardsma and Lopez as your second-tier of pitchers, with Hansen and Timlin bringing up the back...there's no sure thing waiting in the pen at AAA, nor any sure bet on the trade market right now. I don't like having two garbage-time relievers on the staff, but then again I would've cut Timlin before DFA'ing Tavarez.

Masterson could help, but at this time I believe that he'd help the Sox more by making spot starts for minor injuries and letting Clay concentrate on developing his FB command at the AAA level as much as possible. During the stretch run that calculus changes, of course, and I think we'll see the Jedi in the pen by August 25th. Frankly, I'm much more worried about the Sox offense on the road, than I am about the pen right now.

[edited for grammar]

This post has been edited by Buzzkill Pauley: May 30 2008, 10:46 AM


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Kevin Youkulele
post May 30 2008, 10:35 AM
Post #44


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QUOTE(Buzzkill Pauley @ May 30 2008, 10:55 AM) [snapback]1593260[/snapback]
Great post.

From reading this, it seems like the Sox need to hope that Okajima's IR issues are as much noise as they seem to be (maybe he's been rushed into appearances?) and that Delcarmen's issues were a combination of the flu and the sporadic reliever hiccup that just about everyone has. That the OPS numbers look as good as they do for most of the pitchers makes me think that luck has been more of a factor than suckage, and apart from putting a starter like Masterson or Buchholz into the pen, or trying an extended Chris Smith experiment (and I don't think the desperation level is high enough for this, although Hansen could be sent back down to make room if necessary), they don't have a lot of options at this point.
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yep
post May 30 2008, 10:57 AM
Post #45



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QUOTE(Kevin Youkulele @ May 30 2008, 11:35 AM) [snapback]1593334[/snapback]
...That the OPS numbers look as good as they do for most of the pitchers makes me think that luck has been more of a factor than suckage...

In all seriousness, a lot of this luck (or lack thereof) is manufactured.

When you hand your bullpen lots of 4-inning save situations, they're going to blow a lot of them. When you're trying to cobble together multiple innings of relief every night and the pressure to save your best relievers is such that you're only calling them when the bases are full of runners, then your top relievers are going to look like they're struggling when easy-out grounders allow runners to score, even though that same grounder might have been part of a brilliant relief performance in a bases empty situation.

If you want to see the Red Sox bullpen rate stats increase, the quickest way to do it is to get the starters going 7, 8 innings every night. The more dependent on the bullpen a team is, the more the bullpen will seem to struggle, because constant usage restricts the manager's ability to use the bullpen most effectively.


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Kevin Youkulele
post May 30 2008, 11:49 AM
Post #46


wishes Claude Makelele was a Red Sox
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QUOTE(yep @ May 30 2008, 11:57 AM) [snapback]1593373[/snapback]
If you want to see the Red Sox bullpen rate stats increase, the quickest way to do it is to get the starters going 7, 8 innings every night. The more dependent on the bullpen a team is, the more the bullpen will seem to struggle, because constant usage restricts the manager's ability to use the bullpen most effectively.

The Sox's 5 primary starters so far are averaging 5.98 IP/start--without figuring it exactly for the rest of the league, I pulled a sample out of BB-ref and it looks like pitchers are going 7 or more a little under 1/3 of the time. The 2007 Sox got 6.23 IP/start. Maybe we can get a little improvement here, but I think in the modern game, bullpens get used a lot.
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Buzzkill Pauley
post May 30 2008, 12:15 PM
Post #47



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QUOTE(Kevin Youkulele @ May 30 2008, 12:49 PM) [snapback]1593457[/snapback]
The Sox's 5 primary starters so far are averaging 5.98 IP/start--without figuring it exactly for the rest of the league, I pulled a sample out of BB-ref and it looks like pitchers are going 7 or more a little under 1/3 of the time. The 2007 Sox got 6.23 IP/start. Maybe we can get a little improvement here, but I think in the modern game, bullpens get used a lot.


That's a huge amount: 1/3 inning per game is 53+ IP over the course of the season.

Getting that distributed evenly over the Sox current starters (4.06 RA/9) instead using Timlin and Hansen (8.06 RA/9) is worth 23 runs. If you prefer to look at ERA, it's still a 19-run spread.


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ctsoxfan5
post May 30 2008, 12:22 PM
Post #48



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QUOTE(Buzzkill Pauley @ May 30 2008, 01:15 PM) [snapback]1593500[/snapback]
That's a huge amount: 1/3 inning per game is 53+ IP over the course of the season.

Getting that distributed evenly over the Sox current starters (4.06 RA/9) instead using Timlin and Hansen (8.06 RA/9) is worth 23 runs. If you prefer to look at ERA, it's still a 19-run spread.


Well, it's 1/4 inning per game, so 40.5 IP for the season. I also wonder what the Sox IP/start was at this same point last year.
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ctsoxfan5
post May 30 2008, 12:25 PM
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QUOTE(ctsoxfan5 @ May 30 2008, 01:22 PM) [snapback]1593511[/snapback]
Well, it's 1/4 inning per game, so 40.5 IP for the season. I also wonder what the Sox IP/start was at this same point last year.


Also, according to ESPN, last season the Sox starters averaged 6.12 IP/start, and not the 6.23 number cited above, so the difference is even smaller.


This post has been edited by ctsoxfan5: May 30 2008, 12:26 PM
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dbn
post May 30 2008, 01:21 PM
Post #50



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AL IP per game for starters:

TOR 6.43
CLE 6.35
LAA 6.33
CHI 6.25
OAK 6.10
TBR 6.08
KCR 6.00
BOS 5.96 (AL AVG 5.96 +/- 0.34)
MIN 5.91
SEA 5.81
DET 5.78
BAL 5.76
TEX 5.38
NYY 5.28

...this include all starters, not just primary.
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TomRicardo
post May 30 2008, 01:43 PM
Post #51


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QUOTE(DieHard3 @ May 29 2008, 11:12 PM) [snapback]1592804[/snapback]
What says he isn't capable of that?

TRic's argument that he can be a top-of-the-rotation starter as early as 2009 is a very good one and the balancing of that potential versus the team's very real need in 2008 is not easy. I can see going either way. I come down in favor of 2008. In 2009 it might rain.


He is definitely capable of being a bullpen arm. The argument all along ahas been whether he could stick it out as a starter. There is very little question of his ability to be a major league starter now. I think the question now is how good he can be.

If the bullpen was weak top to bottom I could see promoting Masterson as your closer or maybe your primary set up man however as the bullpen is built now. Masterson would at best be your third best option out of the bullpen. Trading a couple months or more of Masterson starting next year for 30 - 40 IP of semi high leverage middle reliever / set up innings is just not a really good trade as I see it. I see Masterson being in the bullpen in September and probably through the playoffs so we are really only talking about three months setup/middle relief help for more 2/3 years of development squandered. We also lose our sixth/seventh starter (who we have used twice already and may use a third time next week).

This post has been edited by TomRicardo: May 30 2008, 01:44 PM


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Koufax
post May 30 2008, 01:51 PM
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Which brings me to Zink. There is little squander there, just a management issue regarding catchers.

OK, I won't mention it again.
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yep
post May 30 2008, 01:59 PM
Post #53



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QUOTE(Kevin Youkulele @ May 30 2008, 12:49 PM) [snapback]1593457[/snapback]
The Sox's 5 primary starters so far are averaging 5.98 IP/start--without figuring it exactly for the rest of the league, I pulled a sample out of BB-ref and it looks like pitchers are going 7 or more a little under 1/3 of the time. The 2007 Sox got 6.23 IP/start. Maybe we can get a little improvement here, but I think in the modern game, bullpens get used a lot.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. My larger point was not to blame the starters, but to suggest that starter-quality run prevention from a stable of normal relief pitchers is very difficult to achieve. This might seem like stating the obvious, but it leaves only two practical alternatives: either increase the proportion of innings thrown by starters, or construct a bullpen full of above-average pitchers, which is really hard to do without sacrificing starting-caliber pitchers. I don't mean to posit either of those as a suggestion or a good overall strategy, just to frame the basic challenge.

Detailed analysis can reveal more specifically what is actually going on, and what it reveals is basically a bullpen that is performing more or less within normal variance, i.e. losing a lot of close games. It might be the case that it would be easier or at least comparable in terms of cost and challenge to change this scenario by either reducing the number of close games that are handed to the bullpen, or shortening the bullpen's exposure to opposing hitting.

This is not to say that a team shouldn't pursue the best relievers they can, nor that they should be content with mediocre performance. But a certain amount of mediocrity is almost inevitable, where the vast majority of middle-relievers are hugely variable in terms of performance.



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Cumberland Blues
post May 31 2008, 11:28 AM
Post #54



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QUOTE(DieHard3 @ May 29 2008, 11:12 PM) [snapback]1592804[/snapback]
What says he isn't capable of that?

He was a closer in college,


Well, no, he wasn't. He started at SD State and at Bethel College before that. I'm on rural dial-up and it took me <5 minutes to find that out. It's cute when you make stuff up in V&N, it's annoying on the main board.

He did get 10 saves in the Cape Cod league in '05 though - so there was at least a small kernel of truth in your made up factoid. There's a case to made for Masterson in the pen. Don't undermine your own argument with BS.


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Vermonter At Lar...
post May 31 2008, 12:04 PM
Post #55


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I've always been a bit leary of sinkerball pitchers in the bullpen, but that may be irrational. I do not have fond memories of either Bigfoot Bob Stanley, Mike Timlin or of Derek Lowe in that role. I guess the question I would have would be if the infield was rangy enough to support a guy like Masterson yielding hard ground balls in the seventh or eighth inning. I do not think that a bullpen stint for Masterson would significantly alter his development, unless he started giving up strings of singles with the game on the line like Lowe used to do. I just question whether the type of reliever he would probably be is, in fact, of any use to a contending team in the first place.


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Kevin Youkulele
post May 31 2008, 12:59 PM
Post #56


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The question of whether to use Masterson as a reliever really has multiple parts, though--how good would he be, and how much of an improvement is that over one of Hansen/Timlin/Delcarmen/Aardsma (ideally he'd displace the worst one, although inasmuch as the worst one may be Timlin and Timlin seems to get a lot of loyalty, I'm not sure it would be him), and how badly is that upgrade needed? At a gut level it's hard to believe Masterson wouldn't be better than at least one of those guys, but is it worth sticking him in the pen if he's not providing a decent "7th inning guy" level of performance? If Delcarmen gets his stuff together, having four other run of the mill to mediocre relievers is OK--that's more or less what the 2007 pen was. I think that at the moment this is not something to be rushed into, but if the pen looks to need upgrading in mid July, I'd much rather see Masterson get a shot than overpay in a deadline deal.
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Eric Van
post May 31 2008, 01:43 PM
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WPA of bullpen before 5/30: -0.65
WPA of bullpen in game of 5/30: +.84

Hansen had the best game of his career by WPA.

Here's a comparison of the bullpen to last year, with appearances broken down by WPA into the named buckets (the dividing lines being .333, .111, .037, -.037, .-111, .-333).

[table=Heroics, Rescues, Assists; Struggles, Failures, Collapses][tr][td=*] [/td][td=*]2008 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]2007 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Name [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]H [/td][td=*]R [/td][td=*]A [/td][td=*]ND [/td][td=*]S [/td][td=*]F [/td][td=*]C [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]H [/td][td=*]R [/td][td=*]A [/td][td=*]ND [/td][td=*]S [/td][td=*]F [/td][td=*]C [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Okajima [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]5 [/td][td=*]7 [/td][td=*]6 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]15 [/td][td=*]21 [/td][td=*]23 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]3 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Lopez [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]4 [/td][td=*]6 [/td][td=*]13 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]3 [/td][td=*]14 [/td][td=*]35 [/td][td=*]5 [/td][td=*]3 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Papelbon [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]6 [/td][td=*]10 [/td][td=*]5 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]16 [/td][td=*]24 [/td][td=*]11 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]3 [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Aarsdma [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]6 [/td][td=*]13 [/td][td=*]3 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Corey [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]3 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]5 [/td][td=*]4 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Hansen [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]4 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Snyder [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]0 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]5 [/td][td=*]31 [/td][td=*]4 [/td][td=*]3 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Delcarmen [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]3 [/td][td=*]3 [/td][td=*]12 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]5 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]6 [/td][td=*]14 [/td][td=*]17 [/td][td=*]3 [/td][td=*]4 [/td][td=*] [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Timlin [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]10 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]3 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]4 [/td][td=*]19 [/td][td=*]21 [/td][td=*]4 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*] [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Tavarez [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]3 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]6 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*] [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Romero [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]16 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*] [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Donnelly [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]8 [/td][td=*]13 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*] [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Buchholz [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Lester [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Hansack [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*] [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Piniero [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]21 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]3 [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Gagne [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]4 [/td][td=*]12 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]2 [/td][td=*]2 [/td][/tr][tr][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]1 [/td][td=*]21 [/td][td=*]39 [/td][td=*]69 [/td][td=*]17 [/td][td=*]13 [/td][td=*]6 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]3 [/td][td=*]53 [/td][td=*]120 [/td][td=*]212 [/td][td=*]26 [/td][td=*]26 [/td][td=*]12 [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Pace [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]3 [/td][td=*]60 [/td][td=*]111 [/td][td=*]196 [/td][td=*]48 [/td][td=*]37 [/td][td=*]17 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][/tr][tr][td=*]Change [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]0 [/td][td=*]7 [/td][td=*]-9 [/td][td=*]-16 [/td][td=*]22 [/td][td=*]11 [/td][td=*]5 [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][/tr][/table]

This post has been edited by Eric Van: May 31 2008, 01:48 PM
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DieHard3
post May 31 2008, 02:40 PM
Post #58


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QUOTE(Cumberland Blues @ May 31 2008, 12:28 PM) [snapback]1596656[/snapback]
He did get 10 saves in the Cape Cod league in '05 though - so there was at least a small kernel of truth in your made up factoid.


So, that's why I remembered him being a closer in college. Getting 10 saves in the premier college all-star summer league hardly seems like a "small kernel of truth." All that does is reinforce that the burden of proof is on those who claim he can't be a premier set up guy.

That said, situation has changed. He's needed in the rotation right now, as last year's flavor of the month (Buchholz) seems to have hit a rough patch and all those pitches have caught up to Dice-K.
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DieHard3
post Jun 2 2008, 09:09 PM
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How many games this year have the Red Sox entered the 8th inning tied or with the lead, and ended up losing while Papelbon twiddles his thumbs in the bullpen?
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Diamond Don Aase
post Jun 2 2008, 09:37 PM
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QUOTE(DieHard3 @ Jun 2 2008, 10:09 PM) [snapback]1600516[/snapback]
How many games this year have the Red Sox entered the 8th inning tied or with the lead, and ended up losing while Papelbon twiddles his thumbs in the bullpen?


This is the fourth such game this season that the Red Sox entered the eighth inning tied or with the lead and lost without Papelbon appearing:

April 25 5-4 @Tampa
April 26 2-1 @Tampa
May 27 4-3 @Seattle
June 2 6-3 @Baltimore

Don't worry, though. Top, top people assure me that saving your best reliever to face Ramon Hernandez and Freddie Bynum with a three-run lead in the ninth is the best use of resources.
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