We're talking about Terry Francona now Options

[trekfan55]

But the Yankees were far more beat up earlier in the season, in part allowing for the 14-game lead by the Sox during the first half - so it seems like the injuries/fatique are about comperable, just timed differently - no?

I can't find the story, but I could swear they brought in a new strength and conditioning team during the offseason (or is that the Yankees I am thinking of)?

It was actually the Yankees after several players fell injured.


My main point is that both this year and in 2005 the Sox simply lost it, they looked tired then and look tired now, the Yankees don't.

BTW the Yanks earlier in the season was more of a Sox 2006 August example somewhere else someone listed the assorted pitchers the Yanks had to put in there, plus having to play Miguel Cairo at 1st, and Damon being injured but refusing to go to the DL among others.

[Rudy Pemberton]

I think the main difference is simply that the Yankees lineup has better offensive players. On Sunday, the Yankees were without Matsui and Posada, the equivalent to the Sox being without Tek and Manny. But, you hardly notice when the lineup still features A-Rod, Jeter, Cano, Damon, Giambi, Cabrera, etc. The Yankees lineup is just better and deeper than the Yanks and it has a lot less to do with the bench and more to do with the starters. Don't get me wrong, the Sox offense is good but the margin for error is a lot less than that of the Yankees.

[Ananti]

Still want to defend Francona? Papelbon hasn't pitched since Friday and he can't use him for 4 outs? He never even had him warm up, so Gagne walks the park and Papelbon just watches. WTF.

This post has been edited by Ananti: Sep 18 2007, 09:03 PM

[86spike]

Tito leaves another pitcher in too long tonight. It was incredibly evident that Gagne had nothing... how was Papelbon not warming to come in after he walked in the tying run? Didn't we save Papelbon all summer so we could use him heavily right F-ing now?

How about pinch hitting Manny or Coco for Ellsbury in the last out of the game? Downs is death on lefties... Tito... di you lose your ffrigging spreadsheet?

The lead for the AL East is now down to 2.5 with plenty of games left for this ice cold team to blow it. Francona needs to go for the throat and he is just sitting on his hands like a thinner version of Don Zimmer.

This is unreal. I'm furious with this loss.

(and isn't it nice how terribly Tito has managed since this thread popped up? Can we ban xjack?)

[Smiling Joe Hesk...]

Still want to defend Francona? Papelbon hasn't pitched since Friday and he can't use him for 4 outs? He never even had him warm up, so Gagne walks the part and Papelbon just watches. WTF.

The only reason not to even have Papelbon warm is if he's hurt.

Otherwise, passively allowing Gagne to blow the game is completely inexcusable.

This is the first time in the Francona era I've expressed any type of wish to fire him. I cannot understand for the life of me why Papelbon wasn't at least warming.

[templeUsox]

Still want to defend Francona? Papelbon hasn't pitched since Friday and he can't use him for 4 outs? He never even had him warm up, so Gagne walks the part and Papelbon just watches. WTF.

What's even more pathetic is the notion that Papelbon needs to be allowed to go through his casual routine if he isn't warm. I don't care if Papelbon was in bondage chains all night, with the bases load and Gagne on the fritz, you NEED to bring your best reliever no matter what. Papelbon at 70% there was so much obviously better than a completely ineffective Gagne. I haven't seen something this close to managerial negligence since Sam Perlozzo took Jeremy Guthrie out in the 9th inning of that Mothers Day game. This was inexcusable.

[Ananti]

The only reason not to even have Papelbon warm is if he's hurt.

Otherwise, passively allowing Gagne to blow the game is completely inexcusable.

This is the first time in the Francona era I've expressed any type of wish to fire him. I cannot understand for the life of me why Papelbon wasn't at least warming.

If Papelbon's hurt, then why did he take out MDC after one hitter? Wouldn't you have to go MDC in the 8th and Gagne in the 9th?

I don't buy it.

[Smiling Joe Hesk...]

If Papelbon's hurt, then why did he take out MDC after one hitter? Wouldn't you have to go MDC in the 8th and Gagne in the 9th?

I don't buy it.

I don't think Papelbon is hurt either. I cannot imagine any reason not to have Papelbon warming up as Gagne slowly drowned in the 8th. I'm completely baffled.

[DeltaForce]

I have to assume that Papelbon is injured. Otherwise, there is no excuse not to have used him tonight. (But if Papelbon was injured, why does MDC get only one batter?)

I likewise have to assume that Crisp, Youk and Manny remain unavailable to pinch hit due to injuries.

So . . . the choices are (1) this was the worst kind of indifferent, Spring Training type game management, or (2) the Sox are screwed because three of their nine starters are injured as is the closer, and most of the other bullpen options are ineffective.

This is as disheartening as it gets.

[DieHard3]

Yeah, I am also absolutely furious. That was 100 percent totally and completely inexplicable and inexcusable. As Jerry Remy said, "I think we should clinch something first, and then experiment."

I do not invest my entire summer in this team to watch a game like tonight. Terry Francona should be ashamed of himself and Eric Gagne should not pitch another meaningful inning all season. The guy has single-handedly allowed the Yankees back into the race. He's blown four games all by himself since the trade and been a positive factor in zero; then add on at least two more games they've lost because of Gagne's inability to fill the role for which he was acquired (Friday against the Yankees being one of them). Eric Gagne has nothing left; the scout who recommended the trade should be demoted or fired, but that's another story.

Frankly, this was perhaps the worst decisionmaking by Francona since he arrived here in Boston. I cannot fathom why:

1. Gagne was put in a one-run ballgame

2. Nobody was warming up in the bullpen after the walk to Stairs

3. No stall tactics were employed at all, at any point, in order to get a reliever warmed up

4. Bryan Corey was warming up instead of Mike Timlin -- is Mike Timlin hurting again? That would be very bad

I am beside myself right now. Sleep will not come easily tonight. Unfreakinbelievable.

[Bob Montgomery...]

I thought that Tito handled Lester perfectly tonight, and then handled the 8th horrendously. Actually, cluelessly. I have no problem pitching Gagne in the 8th. And I was hopeful that he had turned the corner. But he's still enough of a question mark that you have to have Papelbon warming right away. When you're experimenting, you have to have a solid backup plan, and Tito neglected to put one in place. Hell, I was even okay with Gagne trying to pitch out of it with two men on. But once the bases were loaded and Gagne had clearly lost the strike zone, there is absolutely no way he should have been in. Absolutely none. I'm generally pretty soft on Tito, but this one was just way beyond terrible on his part.

[Kevin Mortons Gh...]

You guys are completely missing the point of what happened tonight. The Sox have, rightly or wrongly, concluded that they are in the playoffs and that beating the Yankees for the AL East and getting home field advantage are not as important as getting the team ready for the playoffs.

Manny's still not 100%? Sit him down.

Coco has a neck owie? Rest him.

Don't know if Eric Gagne can pitch the eighth of a close game? Throw him out there and see what happens.

The 8th was Gagne's no matter what tonight. There's no other possible explanation for what happened tonight. Did a pitching coach even visit the mound as Gagne self destructed? Francona might have problems leaving pitchers in too long, but nobody is THAT stupid.

I just hope they're right. Its scary how many close games we've lost lately.

This post has been edited by Kevin Mortons Ghost: Sep 18 2007, 09:11 PM

[DieHard3]

The 8th was Gagne's no matter what tonight. There's no other possible explanation for what happened tonight. Did a pitching coach even visit the mound as Gagne self destructed? Francona might have problems leaving pitchers in too long, but nobody is THAT stupid.

I agree. Why should fans bother to get as worked up as I am right now? The team doesn't give a shit if they win the division, why should I bother watching the last 10 games if they're just going to treat them as exhibition outings?

This is also exactly what is wrong with the wild card. There are probably people posting on this Board who don't even remember when one didn't exist; when the regular season was more than just an extended round robin format.

[Smiling Joe Hesk...]

Farrell visited the mound when the bases were loaded but the Sox were still leading.

The only possible explanation that would make an iota of sense is that Papelbon got up to warm in the pen when Gagne was out there, and THEN got injured. That would be the only reason for pulling MDC after one batter and not having Paps warm. I do not think that's what really happened, but I suppose it's a possibility.

The club has clearly decided not to bother with winning the division. The decision-making on the field over the past week has been mind-bogglingly passive.

[Return of the De...]

You guys are completely missing the point of what happened tonight. The Sox have, rightly or wrongly, concluded that they are in the playoffs and that beating the Yankees for the AL East and getting home field advantage are not as important as getting the team ready for the playoffs.

Manny's still not 100%? Sit him down.

Coco has a neck owie? Rest him.

Don't know if Eric Gagne can pitch the eighth of a close game? Throw him out there and see what happens.

The 8th was Gagne's no matter what tonight. There's no other possible explanation for what happened tonight. Did a pitching coach even visit the mound as Gagne self destructed? Francona might have problems leaving pitchers in too long, but nobody is THAT stupid.

I just hope they're right. Its scary how many close games we've lost lately.

I tend to agree with this....as evidenced by the Sox moving starters to get the rotation lined up for the playoffs. I just watched FSN Sports Tonight, and Tomase mentioned something about how they might be guarding against what happened in 2005 when all their starters and relievers were gassed at the end because they were fighting for the division. I think it's a mistake, no matter what DET and STL did last year.

[irinmike]

You guys are completely missing the point of what happened tonight. The Sox have, rightly or wrongly, concluded that they are in the playoffs and that beating the Yankees for the AL East and getting home field advantage are not as important as getting the team ready for the playoffs.

Manny's still not 100%? Sit him down.

Coco has a neck owie? Rest him.

Don't know if Eric Gagne can pitch the eighth of a close game? Throw him out there and see what happens.

The 8th was Gagne's no matter what tonight. There's no other possible explanation for what happened tonight. Did a pitching coach even visit the mound as Gagne self destructed? Francona might have problems leaving pitchers in too long, but nobody is THAT stupid.

I just hope they're right. Its scary how many close games we've lost lately.

Oh yea someone is that stupid, his name is Francona. Give me a break, even if the team was getting ready for the playoffs, or this was a game in mid May. You don't allow a relief pitcher to implode this terribly with a one run lead. It took Gagne about twenty minutes to walk three batters. ANYONE would have had time to warm up. As far as giving the bullpen more time to get warm. When would you not employ that strategy, even if you were getting your team ready for the playoffs?

[Grubbery]

The club has clearly decided not to bother with winning the division. The decision-making on the field over the past week has been mind-bogglingly passive.

This is exactly correct. It's not even typical Terry in-season long-view managing. It's "winning this game is the second most important thing to X" style managing. I'm all for making sure the team is healthy and ready for the playoffs, but there's got to be a happy medium that takes into consideration the advantage of winning the division, playing at home more often, and having the right to choose a short or long series to play.

If this is NOT an organizational decision, then like you, for the first time in his career I'm finding it hard not to wish Terry be fired.

Edit: typo

This post has been edited by Grubbery: Sep 18 2007, 09:20 PM

[smastroyin]

I wrote after Gagne blown game number two that what I was really worried about was not Gagne's ineffectiveness, though that has been worry enough. It is the front office endorsing Tito to do his crappy inning by inning strictly by the numbers bullpen management. Since the trade deadline, I count 5 games that have been lost in the eighth inning while Papelbon chewed sunflower seeds. Part of this is that Okajima has been bad but most of it is that despite what has been going on Tito refuses to change a single thing about the way he uses the bullpen. In Friday's game, he burned Timlin for one out. Tonight, he burned MDC for one out. And, frankly, outside of a crappy pitch to Troy Glaus, MDC has been this team's best reliever lately.

I can understand bringing in Gagne even though I personally would have given MDC the ball for the eighth. But there is no reason not to have Papelbon or at least some other pitcher warming. You just can't let Gagne operate without a net, especially with expanded rosters. I am eagerly anticipating the excuse. I know several Tito uber alles guys will come in and say this happened so fast but it absolutely did not. Gagne takes about 28 minutes between pitches when he starts to lose it and there was plenty of time after the Hill single. Even in that at bat he was nowhere near the zone other than the get me over fastball that Hill pounded into LF. Get someone up as soon as Thomas gets to 3-0 (ok, assuredly the ump takes some blame here because all three of those pitches could have been called strikes, ESPECIALLY the bat all the way through the hitting zone "check swing") and get them up with the intention of bringing them in. But, frankly, with Gagne's recent history the correct thing to do is to have someone warming from the moment he takes the hill.

This is just insanely stupid. The players are failing for sure, but between Friday, Sunday, and tonight, at least one of these games has to go on Tito, and probably two of them.

[Ananti]

I think that's just excuse making, if they really wanted to not gas everybody they should have pushed the metal and put the division away first, which they could have done. But instead laid an egg losing 5 of 6 to the MFY.

[Smiling Joe Hesk...]

I tend to agree with this....as evidenced by the Sox moving starters to get the rotation lined up for the playoffs. I just watched FSN Sports Tonight, and Tomase mentioned something about how they might be guarding against what happened in 2005 when all their starters and relievers were gassed at the end because they were fighting for the division. I think it's a mistake, no matter what DET and STL did last year.

It's a mistake because not only are they about to lose the division, they are now risking missing the playoffs, although that possibility is pretty remote.

In any case, it's the wrong strategy to use. Passively allowing your division lead to slip away to get ready for the playoffs even though you don't know where and when you're playing is utterly asinine. If the people in charge of this club don't value winning the division this year, they should be asked to find other employment. The whole situation is a farce at this point.