The 2nd Season - 2019 Playoff Thread
- Thread starter ElUno20
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That's totally valid, I wanted to open it up as I haven't really considered this before and I may be way off on my judgment. Perhaps cynically, I think that if Durant never came to town Green would be sitting on a much higher chance of making it, as I have heard much less about his importance to the team over the last three years than the first two of their dominant run, and I think most fans would agree by now that he is a distant 4th in the Big 4 as it stands today. His stats seem to be falling off pretty consistently as well. I'd like to see what role he plays (and how the Warriors fare as a team) going forward if Durant leaves this summer.
Iguodala I agree does have a good shot since he was a traditional star in his early career and lasted a long time as an adaptive, productive player, winning a Finals MVP in the back half of his career, which is something Draymond will probably never be able to say. You may be right that Draymond's unique peak and the narrative surrounding it may endure long enough to get him in, but if he plateaus around where he's been the last couple years after peaking at age 25, that's not a good look IMO.
I agree completely. Warriors are a bit susceptible to the ennui and physical abuse that comes with playing more games than anyone else in the world for the last four years. The reason why the 60s Celtics an 90s Bulls runs are so remarkable is because they don't happen. Guys wear down, get sick of each other, read their press clippings. Teams lose undervalued glue guys. The only thing stopping GS is GS, and that doesn't seem likely this year unless something catastrophic happens to a key player.
This Orlando team is fun to root for. Toronto will dispatch them soon but Clifford has the Magic players going hard.
Pascal Siakam is really damn good. Kawhi really should look at staying there, even if the Clippers go after him hard.
I understand why Clifford did it but I would have played Isaac over EF down the stretch.
Gasol is eating up Vuc.
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Between the Westbrook vs Lillard trash talking battles and this, the Blazers OKC series is about to get even more chippy. I love it.
Grant in particular is the key for OKC. If he can play like he did tonight, they are far more lethal. When he is right, he is a very good player on both ends of the court.
Let's not forget though that this game was well on its way to being a 30-point blowout until Lillard decided to make the 3rd quarter his own personal playground by dropping 25 points that emptied his tank down the stretch. OKC didn't have to shoot lights out from 3 to comfortably win this game if not for Lillard's herculean effort.
Lillard likely expends more energy creating his 20 shots than Harden does in his 30. They are completely different type scorers in how they go about getting their shots plus Lillard has the benefit of McCollum as his 1a so they are often playing iso to the matchups.
Jokic singlehandedly destroyed the Nuggets defensive schemes each time Pop utilized PnR action toward him, which was often, on the way to 118 pts on 89 FGA which is a ridiculously efficient number for a team that only made 7 three's. Some have gone so far as to call him a Top-5 player in the league...….he wasn't a Top-5 player in the game last night due to being exposed defensively.
Plus Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Dennis Johnson, Sidney Moncrief, Bobby Jones, and Bill Russell.
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Exactly. The question about Jokic was never whether he could create offense in the playoffs, it was whether he could hold up defensively. So far, the answer is a pretty clear "no". That sucks for Denver if true, because it will mean they're all-in on a core with a massive hole at the most important defensive spot.
Incidentally, this is one of my favorite things about the NBA. The playoffs are such a different animal, and players' weaknesses get highlighted so ruthlessly. You learn more about guys in 4 weeks than you learn in 7 months, just from the intensity and gameplanning being turned up so much.
What an odd mix of players. The NBA HOF bar isn't very high, as we all know, but those guys don't belong in the same sentence.Plus Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Dennis Johnson, Sidney Moncrief, Bobby Jones, and Bill Russell.
I'd give him credit for irony if I could figure out what point he's trying to make. About then only thing they have in common is that they haven't been in my kitchen.
The common thread is: guys with a huge impact on wins who would risk being massively underrated by PPG if you didn't watch them regularly, or hear from their coaches and contemporaries about how they impacted the game. Andre and Draymond both fit that category, imho (though I think it's a bit early to talk about Draymond's HOF credentials). Obviously neither of them or anyone else on that list is close to Bill Russell in degree, but the basic principal stands.
On the specific question of Iguodala, I'd argue that he's a more worthy candidate than, for example, his contemporary and fellow Olympian Carmelo Anthony, who will obviously get in. He completely crushes Melo by advanced stats that attempt to measure impact on wins, not just in one-off small samples but consistently, throughout their careers. At his peak he rated as the #1 player in the NBA. More anecdotally: the Sixers were a solid playoff team when led by him, then instantly became a historically awful team when he left. Denver went from mediocre to the #3 seed the year he arrived, then immediately started sucking after he left. Fun fact: that 2012-13 team on which Iguodala was the team leader and best player is not just better than any of Nuggets teams led by prime Melo but still the best Nuggets team (by net rating) since they joined the NBA in 1976-77.
Then there's the 2013-2019 Warriors, best six-year team of the modern era, who jumped from the #14 defense in the league to #4 the year he arrived, with no other major roster changes (and then #1 the next season when Draymond replaced DLee in the starting lineup).
In terms of traditional stats, Andre leads all non-pipsqueaks in assist-to-turnover ratio pretty much every season, up to and including this one. And he's doing his thing again in this year's playoffs: 14 dimes and two turnovers, with a net on-off of +16.8. The way he has taken care of his body and managed his age 32-35 years is also a plus in his candidacy relative to Carmelo. He's still at pretty close to peak level at 35; and Kerr still never ceases to rave about him, calling him the coach on the floor and smartest player he's ever coached or played with.
2015 Finals MVP. Three-time NBA champion (and two of those, 2015 and 2018, likely don't happen without him). 2012 and 2010 Team USA Gold Medalist. 2012 NBA All-Star. 2011 and 2014 All Defense. How many Finals MVPs are not HOFers? Cornbread Maxwell, and...?
Totally agree that HOF gets somewhat cheapened for the all-time greats when second and third tier guys are let in, but I'd argue that there a lot of less deserving guys than Andre Iguodala in there who have already lowered that bar. That said, I think there's a good chance he doesn't get in, since the cult of PPG is strong.
Edit: plus, this...
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Bref has Iguodala's HOF probability at 6.1%, which sounds about right. This isn't the 60s, bench players for dynasties who've been to 1 all star game in 15 years don't make the hall of fame without some pretty strong extracurriculars (i.e. Ginobili).
Green is a more interesting case. If he's already one the downside at age 28, he's gonna have a tough time. It's not just the points, it's that he's essentially only been an all star level player for 4-5 years. That's rough.
Green is a more interesting case. If he's already one the downside at age 28, he's gonna have a tough time. It's not just the points, it's that he's essentially only been an all star level player for 4-5 years. That's rough.
Andre Iguodala a HOFer? No way. Dude made 1 all-star game in his career. Never averaged 20 ppg in a single season. He’s had a great career but if guys like him are making the HOF, then it completely de-values the honor.
He’s been a valuable role player for GS but there is no way he’s HOF worthy.
He’s been a valuable role player for GS but there is no way he’s HOF worthy.
It's like nobody bothered to read what SRN took the time to write. I'm not saying I'm convinced by his post but at least argue with his point. An argument is more than just contradictions...
It's a subjective argument, but saying he was once the #1 rated player in NBA by RAPM (a stat that had Nick Collison as the 6th best player in the league and had Markieff Morris, Iman Shumpert, Jae Crowder and Patty Mills in the top 20 doesn't really pass the smell test) isn't much. Those Sixers teams that he lead made the playoffs because the East had to field 8 playoff teams, they never won more than 41 games with Iguodala as their best player. That Nuggets team peaked that year because of Iguodala, and because Galinari was actually healthy (he missed the entire next year with a torn acl). They played over their heads in 12/13 before losing in the first round to the Mark Jackson Warriors.
He made one all star team, two all defense teams (1 first team) and 0 all NBA teams. Feel free to argue he was underrated and I'll agree, but a guy who was never voted amongst the top 15 best players in the league isn't making the hall of fame, no matter how efficient he is as a playmaking wing. He's a good leader who was a mediocre scorer, a good (not great) defender and a good (not great) playmaker who has been around for a long time and is the 5th best player on the best team of the last 20 years. He's a winning player, but winning players in this century don't get to the HOF without good rate stats and accolades to back it up.
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Neither has Bill Russell. And since All-Star game appearances correlate extremely closely with PPG, we risk talking about a closed loop around PPG unless we look at other criteria. Not even taking specifically about Iguodala, but with all the adjusted plus-minus stats we have now, I think it's time to consider more expansive HOF criteria that relate more closely to winning ballgames (which is ultimately what I think all these honors should be recognizing).
I’m all for looking at other criteria but counting stats matter with voters. That isn’t ever likely to change. If Iguodala doesn’t latch on to the next great dynasty 6 years ago, we aren’t having this conversation.
PPG is just one part of the argument against Iguodala. Repeatedly comparing him to Bill Russell, who in 13 years made 12 all star teams, 11 all nba teams, won 5 MVPs and is widely considered to be the greatest winner in American professional sports history is not helping your argument. The only thing the two have in common is that neither was a great scorer.
I'm all for paying more attention to the advanced stats (some of which favor Iguodala, some of which show him to be only slightly above average), but the plus/minus stats have some serious problems. The stat you quoted earlier essentially had Nick Collison as the 6th best player in the league in 2013/2014. He played 16.7 minutes per game and averaged 4.2 points and 3.6 rebounds. Any stat that shows him to be any more than "solid big man off the bench" needs to be taken out and shot, because it is fatally flawed and has absolutely no place in a discussion regarding HOF credentials.
Hmm, I'd agree only with "mediocre scorer." By most accounts and statistical measures I think he's one of the best perimeter defenders of his generation (maybe 1a/1b with Kawhi?) in an era where perimeter D is more important than it has ever been.
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As far as "not great playmaker": check assist/turnover ratio every season for the last ten years and filter out guys under 6'-5". Andre is #1 or #2 basically every year. He was the starting point guard for an injured Curry in last year's first round series v. the Spurs (roughly the same Spurs team currently dismantling the Nuggets); and was integral in taking the Spurs apart. All the greatest moments of the Kerr era have happened with him being heavily featured (taking over for Curry at PG that series and against the Pels; taking over for an injured Durant in 2017 when they went a huge streak that ended in a 16-1 playoff run; replacing Bogut in the starting lineup as they crushed the LeBrons in Games 4-6 of the 2015 Finals, e.g.) And probably not coincidentally, the two worst moments of the Kerr era (2016 Finals Games 6-7 and 2018 WCF Games 4-5) happened with him injured or out.
I'd argue pretty clearly better than Klay on a per minute basis, though lacking Klay's crazy durability. That made him #2a/2b with Draymond before KD arrived, imo.
Definitely lacks the rate stats. As far as accolades ... I guess I just listen to Kerr too much, lol. Even allowing for a measure of Arizona Wildcat solidarity, the degree of praise he heaps on him at every possible opportunity is pretty remarkable. I'd be surprised any of Carmelo's coaches have talked about him in the same way. (It'd be really interesting to hear George Karl expound at length on the two of them.)
Mods, feel free to break out...
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We can certainly quibble over "good not great" but if he was truly the best (or 1a/1b with Kawhi), then why does he have just one 1st team all nba nod? Even if you want to give him the nod statistically (defensive stats are shaky at best considering how team dependent they are, and advanced defensive stats are doubly so. At a glance, he's just 37th among active players in defensive win shares, which is harsh considering he's 9th among active players in minutes played), just once in his career did voters determine he was one of the two best wing defenders in the league. He was voted one of the four best defensive wings in the league just twice. Underrated does not equal HOF caliber.
I call him a good not great playmaker because there is more to playmaking than a good assist to turnover ratio. Terry Rozier is phenomenal at taking care of the ball (4.95 assist to turnover ratio in last year's playoffs!), but he's a lousy playmaking point guard. I don't know if it's still the case, but at one point Muggsy Bogues had the best all time assist to turnover ratio in NBA history. No one is calling Muggsy Bogues one of the best playmakers in NBA history. Iguodala was 14th in assists among scoring guards this year, 21st last year, 9th the year before and 15th the year before that. A great assist to turnover ratio for a combo guard who plays 25 mpg off the bench is not the best argument for saying he's a great playmaker. It's no surprise that his ratio shot up when he came to GS (2.04 in Philly vs 3.09 in GS). His minutes went down and he has two of the best shooters of all time as teammates (steph/klay) and two of the best scorers of all time (steph/durant) as teammates. A good playmaker is efficient. A great playmaker is efficient and does so at a high volume. Iguodala does not qualify for the latter, and only became exceptionally efficient when surrounded by the greatest offensive players in the game.
Regarding his rank amongst fellow Warriors, to each his own.
I call him a good not great playmaker because there is more to playmaking than a good assist to turnover ratio. Terry Rozier is phenomenal at taking care of the ball (4.95 assist to turnover ratio in last year's playoffs!), but he's a lousy playmaking point guard. I don't know if it's still the case, but at one point Muggsy Bogues had the best all time assist to turnover ratio in NBA history. No one is calling Muggsy Bogues one of the best playmakers in NBA history. Iguodala was 14th in assists among scoring guards this year, 21st last year, 9th the year before and 15th the year before that. A great assist to turnover ratio for a combo guard who plays 25 mpg off the bench is not the best argument for saying he's a great playmaker. It's no surprise that his ratio shot up when he came to GS (2.04 in Philly vs 3.09 in GS). His minutes went down and he has two of the best shooters of all time as teammates (steph/klay) and two of the best scorers of all time (steph/durant) as teammates. A good playmaker is efficient. A great playmaker is efficient and does so at a high volume. Iguodala does not qualify for the latter, and only became exceptionally efficient when surrounded by the greatest offensive players in the game.
Regarding his rank amongst fellow Warriors, to each his own.
This is insanity and it isn’t only one poster on this train. I understand the basketball bar is much lower than baseball or football but unless Dre dies prematurely like DJ you’ve got a guy who had a couple real good NBA years with the Sixers having only two winning seasons without much of a collegiate or international resume that spent the second half of his career as a second unit role player who doesn’t always close out games.
I mean seriously, severely flawed metrics aside, this is about as easy as a “No” as I’ve seen. Same with Draymond whose greatest accomplishment may end up being as the guy who ran KD out of Oakland with a skill set that already seems to be declining.
All fair points (Euclis) so I’m gonna change the topic, unless someone breaks out a “I wish I was a little bit taller / I wish I was a baller / I wish I could throw down like Andre Iguodala” thread...
Does anyone who’s been watching OKC/POR and the Westbrook v Lillard duel not think Russ has been coming off as a complete toolbag? (Overtly taunting Dame and his teammates, rock the baby gestures, etc.) I mean, I love a great NBA beef, but it’s rare that one of the two comes of as so obviously the villain the other so obviously the good guy, especially when the villain has no rings or other real bragging rights to hang his hat on. Go Blazers!!!
Does anyone who’s been watching OKC/POR and the Westbrook v Lillard duel not think Russ has been coming off as a complete toolbag? (Overtly taunting Dame and his teammates, rock the baby gestures, etc.) I mean, I love a great NBA beef, but it’s rare that one of the two comes of as so obviously the villain the other so obviously the good guy, especially when the villain has no rings or other real bragging rights to hang his hat on. Go Blazers!!!
I normally would get pissed at the antics, and I’m rooting for Portland, but I get what Russ is doing. His team was flat and on the brink of (effective) elimination, and you have to get yourself and them jacked up, put some edge into it, and get under the Blazers’ skin. It’s an offensive version of what both Smart and Beverly do really well for their teams on the defensive end.
Come on, man. Dennis Rodman is a HOF'er. Role players get in, and Iggy is more than that. Guy's a lock. Hell, Ralph f*cking Sampson is in the Hall! The criteria's pretty loose.
Haha, fair. I don’t have an issue with it either, and love the passion. Just wondering how anyone who’s not a card-carrying Thunder fan could actually root for Westbrook over Lillard. Then again, I also wonder how anyone could look at, say, Luke Voit and think, “you know what, I really like this guy!” And I’m sure most would say the same about Draymond. The mysteries of fandom...
This is the last I'll say against Iguodala, whom I really like: He's not remotely in the same conversation as Rodman. Rodman was a two time DPOY who made 8 all defense teams and lead the league in RPG for 7 straight years. He was a 0 offensively (outside of offensive rebounds, which he led the league in 6 different seasons) but if you're the sort to think that rebounds are a part of the defensive skillset (reasonable, considering that most successful defensive possessions end with a rebound), he's on the short list for best defensive player of all time. Iguodala has never been on the short list for best defensive player in any season, ever (the closest he's got was a very distant 5th in DPOY voting in 2013/2014).
Lillard is great, but he was invisible for the three quarters that he wasn't a superman last night, and his team got swept out in the first round last year. Westbrook was my favorite player in the whole league for a bunch of years, I'm not quite as into him these days but I think that is more my issue than his. His boundless energy is remarkable, he has averaged a freaking triple-double three consecutive years, I think we're lucky to see him even if he's never been the best player in the league.
How many Finals MVP's are excluded from the Hall? Serious question. Is it just Cornbread and Chauncey? Billups will probably get in, and so might Max. They just got around to enshrining Jojo White. I'm confident Iggy gets in. He was fantastic in Philly, dominant in Denver, and is an integral part of a modern-day dynasty.
Embiid gets the start. Butler and Simmons combine for 2 FGA and Sixers down 9 after 1Q.
Edit: Quick run and tied at 38. I freakin love this series!! I sure hope it goes 7.
Edit: Quick run and tied at 38. I freakin love this series!! I sure hope it goes 7.
