2018 Ryder Cup- Le Golf National

TFP

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FWIW, on a NLU Ryder Cup preview podcast a week or two ago, their informed speculation was that the US pods would look something like:

Tiger, JT, Spieth, Reed
Phil, Rickie, DJ, Finau
Brooks, Bryson, Webb, Bubba (island of misfit toys pod here)

It wasn’t 100%, but the majority of pairs did come from the pods at Hazeltine. Those groupings spread out the 3 rookies. There’s been Tiger/JT chatter recently, and obviously the Tiger/Bryson pairing has been speculated on since it became obvious both were going to make the team, but we’ll see. The earlier chatter was that Tiger/Reed could be a thing so they could break up Spieth/Reed and get Spieth with JT. Despite the success, Spieth and Reed don’t seem to want to play together again.

The middle pod seems straight forward. Phil/Rickie, DJ/Finau.

Brooks/DJ seems like a pairing that would make sense, but the idea is that he doesn’t give a shit who he plays with, so can handle some of the tougher guys to play with. Maybe they go Bryson/Brooks and then Webb/Bubba who have played together in the past.

We’ll find out if these pods are accurate in the next few days.
If I was Reed I wouldn’t want that anchor as my partner either. He literally carried Spieth in Saturday Fourball last time.

The other really interesting thing from that episode is that the critical part of the pairings in Foursomes is putting styles. You wouldn’t want to pair a guy like Rickie and DJ together, because Rickie attacks the hole and has no problem with a 3-4 foot comebacker but DJ likes to die it in the hole. So if Rickie left him with 4 foot comebackers all day in foursomes it’d be no bueno. I never thought of it that way and thought it was interesting.
 

TFP

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Also I liked the idea that you put the rookies out in foursomes (instead of Fourball) because a) there’s less pressure to make birdies b) you’re just expected to keep the ball in play and make perfect shots and c) If your form isn’t great you’re only hitting half the shots and your partner can pick you up. Whereas in Fourball if you’re all over the map out of every hole it’s incredibly stressful for your partner to keep making birdies on your own against 2 players.

Unless you’re Reed in Saturday Fourball in 2016. Then you make 8 birdies and eagle.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Is it possible to root for individual guys to fail miserably, but for the team to win? If so, that's where I'm at.
Yeah, I’m trying to figure out how to make this work. I think best case is hope for it to be a blowout and then i can root for Poulter, Rose, Stenson and Rory to be matched up and crush them in meaningless matches on Sunday? I guess if they keep them out of foursomes it could work too, it that’s a lot of weight on the other guy in fourball.
 

FL4WL3SS

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If I was Reed I wouldn’t want that anchor as my partner either. He literally carried Spieth in Saturday Fourball last time.

The other really interesting thing from that episode is that the critical part of the pairings in Foursomes is putting styles. You wouldn’t want to pair a guy like Rickie and DJ together, because Rickie attacks the hole and has no problem with a 3-4 foot comebacker but DJ likes to die it in the hole. So if Rickie left him with 4 foot comebackers all day in foursomes it’d be no bueno. I never thought of it that way and thought it was interesting.
I call bull on this and would like to see the stats. Rickie is a really good putter, so any disadvantage of him putting four feet past would be made up for by him making putts. I don't think he burns it by the hole any more than any other player. He wouldn't leave DJ 4 feet past all day, that is absurd.

Also if DJ can't handle four footers, he shouldn't be playing.
 

TFP

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It was put forth as a theory, not a conclusion, my bad if I made it seem that way. I thought it was an interesting theory and one more about style/feel/comfort than anything. Aka DJ can make those putts (when they happen), but it’s just outside of his comfort zone since it’s not how he approaches putting. It just seemed like an under analyzed aspect to foursomes pairings compared to other things (distance, accuracy, ball type, etc).

That said I’m curious if the stats back it up too.
 

FL4WL3SS

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That makes sense.

Honestly, though, if they're thinking on that level, they are out-thinking themselves. I would have to imagine personalities play a much much larger role than anything else. That line of thinking is a bit of a stretch for me, but luckily I'm not trusted with making those decisions.

Now if you make the reverse argument that Rickie doesn't trust DJ to make come-backers and therefore he putts more tentatively, then I could buy into that.

Usually that plays itself out within the round and isn't something you can plan for, however. In other words, it's only likely to happen if a guy is putting bad, which puts a lot of pressure on the other guy.
 

RedOctober3829

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Tuesday Practice Round Pods

Europe
Stenson, Garcia, Rose, Noreen

Rory, Rahm, Casey, Olesen

Poulter, Fleetwood, Molinari, Hatton

USA
Tiger, Phil, DeChambeau, Reed

Rickie, DJ, Spieth, JT

Finau, Webb, Koepka, Bubba
 
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Zomp

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Whats with the term pods? Is the idea that the players playing together in the practice rounds will only team with the 3 guys theyre playing with? So like, Tiger will only play with Bryson, Phil, or Reed?
 

cshea

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Whats with the term pods? Is the idea that the players playing together in the practice rounds will only team with the 3 guys theyre playing with? So like, Tiger will only play with Bryson, Phil, or Reed?
I don’t know why they call them “pods” instead of groups (probably to make it sound more important than it is) but it is something Azinger takes credit for coming up with when he captained the winning ‘08 team. The idea is that the pairings come from the practice groups. Keep the small groups together, let the players build chemistry with their practice partners, and then the foursome and four ball pairings would come from the “pods.” The US used to get killed in the team matches, this system got them back on track. DLIII sort of used at Medinah and Hazeltine, but there were some cross over group pairings. Watson didn’t use it at the 2014 disaster.
 

RedOctober3829

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I just played with Tiger today and it is the best I’ve ever seen him swing the club. It is so on plane and solid. I’ll be asking for a shot a side for our Thanksgiving match. I doubt I’ll get it though.
 

The Needler

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I don't understand splitting up Reed and Spieth at all, and likewise cannot think of a good reason why Tiger and Phil should be in the same group. I am concerned Furyk's getting a little too cute here.
 

MillarTime

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I don't understand splitting up Reed and Spieth at all, and likewise cannot think of a good reason why Tiger and Phil should be in the same group. I am concerned Furyk's getting a little too cute here.
My thoughts exactly.
 

ernieshore

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I don't understand splitting up Reed and Spieth at all, and likewise cannot think of a good reason why Tiger and Phil should be in the same group. I am concerned Furyk's getting a little too cute here.
I agree, but the players basically run everything now - especially Phil. If he wants to play with Tiger, it's going to happen. Plus, Phil will probably use it to cross-promote their own Thanksgiving event. (and I used to really like Phil, but he's getting annoying).
 

TFP

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I think the Reed/Spieth stuff boils down to the fact that they don't want to play with each other and they weren't exactly great last time. They got smoked in fourball on Friday, blew a big foursomes lead on Saturday morning, and realistically should have lost fourball Saturday if Reed wasn't superhuman during that match. They were 2-1-1 in team play in Hazeltine, and should have been at least 1-1-2.

Reed likely wants to play with Tiger (who can blame him) and Jordan wants to play with his buddies JT and Rickie. I could see Reed and Phil mixing well together, similar to Reed/Keegan a few years ago. I personally think this is exactly the right time to split them up, rather than trying to milk another year out of it against their will and have it potentially not go great.

I agree that pairing Tiger and Phil together is getting too cute.
 

TFP

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Side note - Reed is 6-1-2 in his first two Ryder Cups. That's nuts.
 

RedOctober3829

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I don't understand splitting up Reed and Spieth at all, and likewise cannot think of a good reason why Tiger and Phil should be in the same group. I am concerned Furyk's getting a little too cute here.
I don't want a Tiger/Phil pairing near an alternate shot match but I could possibly live with it in best ball as they could afford to be very aggressive and hunt for birdies on their own balls. They weren't in the same "pod" together but wouldn't a pairing of Rickie and Bryson be very good in alternate shot? Both are accurate and long off the tee. Given the tight fairways, I hope Furyk mixes together straight and long hitters off the tee.

Here's what pairing could be for the morning matches. Tiger/Reed, Speith/Thomas, DJ/Fowler, Finau/Koepka. Sitting would be Phil, DeChambeau, Webb Simpson, and Bubba Watson. Afternoon could be Tiger/Bryson, DJ/Koepka(cross-grouping but this is a dream best ball pairing IMO), Rickie/Phil, Simpson/Reed. I think Simpson's even keel approach would complement Reed's out of control temperment. I don't see Bubba playing the first day. Anyone else see it differently?
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I’m exact opposite on pairings. Let the players decide who they want on their pod or twosome. If someone is playing like shit, sure, bench them; coach should do little more than determine who is playing well, be a cheerleader and then accommodate.

Questions: How long and for how many of these did the US waltz in with more talent and lost? What was always cited? What change has been made and what have the results been?

Answers: a long time; far too many; team camaraderie by the Europeans; a move to change that culture and its worked.

It’s not Josh McDaniels making calls from a playbook. And no, it’s not about ‘DJ can’t make a 4 foot come backer’. It’s about being on a team and making the guys as comfortable as can be.

I don’t know if you guys are different, but if I go play with a group of guys and end up in a cart match, if I like playing with the guy sitting next to me, it makes for a better round, both scoring wise and mood wise. If I like the guy and he’s giving me positive feedback on how im playing - shit, even just a ‘you’re striking your irons really well today, don’t worry about your scorecard’ - I’m probably playing better than a guy I don’t personally get along with and is quiet.

Obviously this is a different level, it ultimately would anyone here think they’d be better off playing with a guy they have issues with but they play the same model of golf ball?
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I don't want a Tiger/Phil pairing near an alternate shot match but I could possibly live with it in best ball as they could afford to be very aggressive and hunt for birdies on their own balls. They weren't in the same "pod" together but wouldn't a pairing of Rickie and Bryson be very good in alternate shot? Both are accurate and long off the tee. Given the tight fairways, I hope Furyk mixes together straight and long hitters off the tee.

Out of those groups from this morning here's what I'd see for the morning matches. Tiger/Reed, Speith/Thomas, DJ/Fowler, Finau/Koepka. Sitting would be Phil, DeChambeau, Webb Simpson, and Bubba Watson. Afternoon could be Tiger/Bryson, DJ/Koepka(cross-grouping but this is a dream best ball pairing IMO), Rickie/Phil, Simpson/Reed. I think Simpson's even keel approach would complement Reed's out of control temperment. I don't see Bubba playing the first day. Anyone else see it differently?
NLU podcast I listened to last week said it’s pretty much a given that Tiger only plays once a day. We’ll see if that plays out or not, but I’m not sure it’s smart for him to try to pull 36 on any given day and have it work out well.
 

ernieshore

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Paul Azinger was on Shane Bacon's Clubhouse podcast this week and he went pretty deep talking about how he set up the pairings and groups when he was captain. He took initial inspiration from how the Europeans would play people from the same countries together. Then he realized the biggest part of being a captain was managing personalities both in setting up the pairings and groups, and also in how he would encourage players (taking a business staff development approach). He said you should never put ultra-competitive players like Tiger and Phil together because they would never want to share things with each other. He also said the groups gave him the flexibility to switch up the pairings, without surprising the players about with whom they were playing.

Combine that with some of his own Ryder Cup stories from playing, and it was an excellent listen.
 

The Needler

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I think the Reed/Spieth stuff boils down to the fact that they don't want to play with each other and they weren't exactly great last time. They got smoked in fourball on Friday, blew a big foursomes lead on Saturday morning, and realistically should have lost fourball Saturday if Reed wasn't superhuman during that match. They were 2-1-1 in team play in Hazeltine, and should have been at least 1-1-2.
2-1-1 is pretty damned good. They’ve won 5 points in 7 matches in the Ryder Cup and 4.5 points in 5 matches in the Presidents Cup. I just don’t see how you can break that up. It’s the most successful team in American team play history.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Paul Azinger was on Shane Bacon's Clubhouse podcast this week and he went pretty deep talking about how he set up the pairings and groups when he was captain. He took initial inspiration from how the Europeans would play people from the same countries together. Then he realized the biggest part of being a captain was managing personalities both in setting up the pairings and groups, and also in how he would encourage players (taking a business staff development approach). He said you should never put ultra-competitive players like Tiger and Phil together because they would never want to share things with each other. He also said the groups gave him the flexibility to switch up the pairings, without surprising the players about with whom they were playing.

Combine that with some of his own Ryder Cup stories from playing, and it was an excellent listen.
Sounds like a good listen, but again, if Tiger and Phil are saying ‘we want to play together’ how do you act like a parent and say ‘no, you’re too competitive to do that’? Tiger and Phil in 2018 aren’t Tiger and Phil in 2005 (or whenever) throwing slights about inferior equipment and shit like that. Both seem to know their place and tasted some humility that age brings. I’d friggin love to see them together.
 

ernieshore

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Sounds like a good listen, but again, if Tiger and Phil are saying ‘we want to play together’ how do you act like a parent and say ‘no, you’re too competitive to do that’? Tiger and Phil in 2018 aren’t Tiger and Phil in 2005 (or whenever) throwing slights about inferior equipment and shit like that. Both seem to know their place and tasted some humility that age brings. I’d friggin love to see them together.
Totally agree. They don't have that same competitiveness or animosity as they did 15 years ago. And you don't see that either with so many of the younger guys like Spieth, Rickie, and JT, so that gives Furyk some more flexibility in setting up the groups.
 

The Needler

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I’m less concerned about whether they’re competitive or like each other than I am with neither of them being among the top 100 or so in SG from the tee, and the Europeans having set the course up to penalize that. Bryson and Tiger seems like a match made in heaven.
 

TFP

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Sounds like we can put the Tiger/Phil talk to rest. Also, Spieth and Reed are in the same group today.

 

cshea

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The practice groups were:

JT, Spieth, Tiger, Reed
Phil, Bryson, Bubba, Webb
Brooks, Finau, DJ, Rickie

So if you want to read into it, the pairs that stayed together:

JT/Spieth
Tiger/Reed
Phil/Bryson
Bubba/Webb
Brooks/Finau
DJ/Rickie

The only sure thing in there is probably Bubba and Webb, but the other duo’s do make some sense and could be pairings we see. Phil and Bryson could be interesting, they’d probably pair reasonably well. Bryson can keep the ball in play off the tee and Phil geeks out with the analytical stuff too.

I think on Spieth/Reed, they can send them out as a foursomes pairing and then break them up for four ball. Foursomes is the tougher one to match guys up, so leaving together a pair that has had success (1-1-2...should be 2-1-1 if not for the 4 up with 6 to play meltdown against Sergio and RCB) would make sense. Then they can send Reed out with Tiger in four ball and Spieth with his buddy JT.

If Tiger only plays 1 match a day, I’d keep him in four ball. He was #1 in strokes gained approach, let him hit stingers off the tee all day and then fire in at every flag instead of only hitting half the approach shots. The driver has been a lot better since he tweaked the shaft and loft, but this place doesn’t require driver off the tee. Maybe the JT pairing that had been talked about would work out, Tiger can put those stingers in play and then free up JT to be more aggressive with the big stick.
 

luckysox

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Weird moment in JT's press conference earlier. A european reporter, not sure from which outlet, asked him, "How much shame is there in your Dad being a sports writer?" He looked both confused and pissed. He said, "Excuse me? What do you mean?" The guy asked it again and JT said, "Am I missing something here?" Then someone said something from off camera to the effect of "we'll address it later." JT looked like he wanted to throttle the guy, basically said, "I have no idea what you're talking about." Anyone have any insight whatsoever on this? It was very odd.

Also, Bubba really does come off as a jerk - it is almost as if he knows everything thinks he's a jerk, knows that's his fit, and just continues to play to it. But he also said he understands he's not the focus this week, and was clear that he'd be happy to sit if he needs to for any reason (he's a little sick, sounded terrible), health or difficult fit, etc.
 

Byrdbrain

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Could he possibly be asserting that someone other than JT's dad is his biological father?
I prefer to just assume that Rick Reilly is dumb.
I assume others know this for sure but I can't recall reading anything he ever wrote.

Edit: The story below seems reasonable, Reilly is still dumb for thinking that was funny.
 
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RedOctober3829

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The practice groups were:

JT, Spieth, Tiger, Reed
Phil, Bryson, Bubba, Webb
Brooks, Finau, DJ, Rickie

So if you want to read into it, the pairs that stayed together:

JT/Spieth
Tiger/Reed
Phil/Bryson
Bubba/Webb
Brooks/Finau
DJ/Rickie

The only sure thing in there is probably Bubba and Webb, but the other duo’s do make some sense and could be pairings we see. Phil and Bryson could be interesting, they’d probably pair reasonably well. Bryson can keep the ball in play off the tee and Phil geeks out with the analytical stuff too.

I think on Spieth/Reed, they can send them out as a foursomes pairing and then break them up for four ball. Foursomes is the tougher one to match guys up, so leaving together a pair that has had success (1-1-2...should be 2-1-1 if not for the 4 up with 6 to play meltdown against Sergio and RCB) would make sense. Then they can send Reed out with Tiger in four ball and Spieth with his buddy JT.

If Tiger only plays 1 match a day, I’d keep him in four ball. He was #1 in strokes gained approach, let him hit stingers off the tee all day and then fire in at every flag instead of only hitting half the approach shots. The driver has been a lot better since he tweaked the shaft and loft, but this place doesn’t require driver off the tee. Maybe the JT pairing that had been talked about would work out, Tiger can put those stingers in play and then free up JT to be more aggressive with the big stick.
The guys on Sirius golf channel this morning were saying that not only do they expect to see Spieth and Reed together, but that they should be leading off the event on Friday morning and should play all 4 matches together barring a blowout loss. They agree with you that Phil and DeChambeau would be a great pairing because they both think the game the same way.

I wonder how the US players will attack the golf course. It's a tight course and they say the rough has been grown thick to discourage the long US hitters from hitting driver off the tee. Will they come out being aggressive and try to outmuscle the course by hitting driver or will they go more 3 wood/irons off the tee and sacrifice distance for accuracy?
 

Lupe Whalewatch

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Apparently Mike Thomas is writing updates and insights in Paris for the Courier Journal all week, and it was a poor attempt at humor regarding that.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I don't see where one would find him being pissed in his response, he just looks completely confused.

And yeah, I can see Reilly thinking it was funny. His idea of what's funny has always been awful.
 

FL4WL3SS

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The guys on Sirius golf channel this morning were saying that not only do they expect to see Spieth and Reed together, but that they should be leading off the event on Friday morning and should play all 4 matches together barring a blowout loss. They agree with you that Phil and DeChambeau would be a great pairing because they both think the game the same way.

I wonder how the US players will attack the golf course. It's a tight course and they say the rough has been grown thick to discourage the long US hitters from hitting driver off the tee. Will they come out being aggressive and try to outmuscle the course by hitting driver or will they go more 3 wood/irons off the tee and sacrifice distance for accuracy?
Well in four-ball you can do both, but it'll definitely be interesting in foursomes. I think the US is going to get crushed in the team events this year and will need a comeback in singles. The course setup is the main reason, but also I am not sure that they'll roll out the right guys. Phil is playing like shit, Bryson is exhausted and a head case, Bubba is sick and playing like shit, Tiger is traditionally a bad team player, Spieth's putting has been not great this year. It will really depend on who Furyk leans heavily on this year and I don't have faith that he'll sit veterans like Phil and Bubba in place of the young guns.

We'll see.
 

TFP

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I really want to be able to say you’re wrong, but I have the exact same feelings.
 

FL4WL3SS

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I'll also add that, if I'm Bjorn, I would have gone four-ball/foursome, foursome/four-ball Friday/Saturday. The Americans are terrible at foursome play, so you force them to play 36 straight holes of it to get them out of sync and put a lot of pressure on them on Saturday afternoon in four-ball. You'd expect them to be down after all that foursome play and pressing in four-ball.

I honestly don't know how you attack this course in foursomes if you're Furyk. You can try to pair a long hitter with a short hitter, but then do you have the short hitter get it in play off the tee and take the biggest weapon out of your long hitters hand or do you roll the dice and let the long hitter bomb it and live with the play from the rough?
 

TFP

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The Americans went 5.5-2-5 in foursomes at Hazeltine so it’s tough to conclude they’ll definitely be terrible. They’ve been terrible in Europe in the past though, so it’s possible.