The NFL and the National Anthem

8slim

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Go talk to an average person on the street and ask them what the kneeling during the national anthem protesters wanted. Initially, the story in the media was that it was support for BLM. Then, and this is a quote from a network broadcaster kneeling was "to protest inequality". No more clarification than that.

And, if you're protesting but it's not clear just what grievance you want redressed then you have failed.

The whole thing was ridiculous from every angle. Playing the "national anthem" before a sporting event is stupid anyway. I think it started in World War I to show that Kaiser how unified we were. 100 years later were still trying to impress the Hohenzollern family.

I’m not having a conversation with the average person on the street, I’m having one with you.
 

jose melendez

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Go talk to an average person on the street and ask them what the kneeling during the national anthem protesters wanted. Initially, the story in the media was that it was support for BLM. Then, and this is a quote from a network broadcaster kneeling was "to protest inequality". No more clarification than that.

And, if you're protesting but it's not clear just what grievance you want redressed then you have failed.

The whole thing was ridiculous from every angle. Playing the "national anthem" before a sporting event is stupid anyway. I think it started in World War I to show that Kaiser how unified we were. 100 years later were still trying to impress the Hohenzollern family.
It started in WWI to explain why the MLB players weren't at war.
 

InstaFace

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And, if you're protesting but it's not clear just what grievance you want redressed then you have failed.
No, if people aren't noticing your protest or aren't forced to think about it, then you've failed. Only a small subset need to know your grievances. The first goal of political protest is to become news; without that, you never have a chance to get anyone to care what you're protesting or why or whether they should agree with you.

By any measure, Kaepernick and those who followed his lead have been wildly successful at getting attention for their cause. Not all of that attention is positive, but I mean, not all of the attention of the marchers at Selma was "positive" either, to put it lightly. But one thing you can't say is that they're irrelevant, as today's news continues to illustrate.
 

Toe Nash

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Are some of you also finished with the NBA as well? Because this policy seems to largely mirror the one they’ve had in place for a several years now: it’s our(the owners) tv show/live event, and we get to say how we want it presented. On field/on court team employees will stand at respectful attention during the anthem.
Maybe if the NBA had also ignored / covered up its former players losing their actual minds from playing the sport I'd be done with them too. It's the combination of all the crap over the last decade.
 

MarcSullivaFan

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I messaged the Patriots’ official FB account and let them know that if they institute penalties for individual players who kneel, I’m out. I sincerely hope they take the same approach as the Eagles and let the players know they can do as they please. But I’m not holding my breath.
 

MarcSullivaFan

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A couple non-personal legal notes:

-Some states do have protections for political speech in the private workplace. Can’t remember which off the top of my head. But, at least in some jurisdictions, players who receive individual team discipline for kneeling may have a remedy.

-If kneeling players characterize their protest as supporting black-balled players such as Kaep, or as protesting the rule itself, they may have remedy under the National Labor Relations Act, which protects (at least some) concerted employee activity protesting terms and conditions of employment. However, a purely political protest would not be protected. Additionally, the current National Labor Relations Board is unlikely to be particularly sympathetic.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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It's beyond irony that the NFL adapted this policy in the same day that the Sterling Brown video dropped from the Milwaukee Police dept. Watching the video shows the very reason why Kap and the other players were kneeling.
 

ifmanis5

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NYT Editorial:

"Rather than show a little backbone themselves and support the right of athletes to protest peacefully, the league capitulated to a president who relishes demonizing black athletes."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/23/opinion/nfl-protest-trump-anthem.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region
Kraft is quoted in the very stronly anti-NFL piece:
“The problem we have is, we have a president who will use that as fodder to do his mission that I don’t feel is in the best interests of America,” Robert Kraft, the Patriots owner and a Trump supporter, said of the kneeling. “It’s divisive, and it’s horrible.”
 

genoasalami

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looking forward to the first Sunday of the season when players say "screw it" ...and everyone is kneeling in a unified "f you" to the league...
 

CantKeepmedown

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Short of a big time superstar coming out and kneeling (say Watt, Rodgers, Brady....someone on that level) I think the best thing we can hope for is a whole team (or both) all staying in the locker room so the sidelines are empty. But like bsj said, it just doesn't seem like that would happen.
 

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So Trump knifed the NFL the day after they announced their shitty policy?

That's outstanding.
 

Super Nomario

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That was a quote from a couple months ago, I think. Lets see what Kraft has to say now. Was he a "yay" or a "nay"?
I don't know that whatever Kraft says publicly reflects what he said / voted behind closed doors. This looks to me like another example of the owners letting the league office be the bad guys and then they can say whatever they want to save face with the players (and fans in more liberal markets like New England).
 

InstaFace

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So Trump knifed the NFL the day after they announced their shitty policy?

That's outstanding.
Scott Van Pelt's viewpoint last night was, there's no reason to bring back to the forefront a controversy that had largely been dormant for months and was unlikely to bite you in the ass substantially in the future. So instead of people mostly forgetting about it except for maybe a blip in early september, their maneuvers made "WSJ email blast news update" status, were on the front page of every newspaper, and got the President tweeting about them.

Bold strategy, cotton.
 

mauf

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Are some of you also finished with the NBA as well? Because this policy seems to largely mirror the one they’ve had in place for a several years now: it’s our(the owners) tv show/live event, and we get to say how we want it presented. On field/on court team employees will stand at respectful attention during the anthem. You’re free to express your social and political views in a myriad of other forums....... Look, I also think the league office and the owners are mostly a bunch of ass-hats. And probably should of just let this run it’s course, which it really already was until the repugnant swine who occupies 16 PA kicked it up again briefly last season. But calling this rule fascist and/ or racist seems over the top and hyperbolic. And I say this as someone who both supports and agrees with the viewpoints that led to the initial protests, and who also can feel his interest the league waning by the year.
Didn’t Abdul-Rauf continue to strike a prayerful pose (head bowed, hands open in front of him) during the anthem? Perhaps the letter of the rule has kept NBA players from adopting NFL-style protests, but the spirit of the rule at the time it was written was to balance the league’s desire for a patriotic display with a respect for individual players’ right to self-expression. Needless to say, the spirit of the NFL rule is the exact opposite.

Also, the NBA has been more permissive than the NFL in allowing other forms of political expression. For example, if the NFL allowed players to wear “I can’t breathe” t-shirts over their uniforms when they took the field, perhaps they would have gone that route instead of kneeling during the anthem.
 

RedOctober3829

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The NFL keeps looking worse and worse.


As I just said on @OTLonESPN sources in the room told me there was no official vote for the anthem resolution. League execs polled owners and knew how they’d vote but didn’t hold an official vote, atypical for such a major resolution.


Also told that Mark Davis was one of the most eloquent speakers on the social justice issues—and that he abstained from the vote as well.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Owners should be ashamed of themselves. Trying to curb free speech by penalizing players who are peacefully protesting the deaths of unarmed African Americans who are victims of police brutality. Its BS. Not only that but since they put this policy in place hopefully it results in a lockout. These greedy racist owners deserve it.
 

edmunddantes

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Owners should be ashamed of themselves. Trying to curb free speech by penalizing players who are peacefully protesting the deaths of unarmed African Americans who are victims of police brutality. Its BS. Not only that but since they put this policy in place hopefully it results in a lockout. These greedy racist owners deserve it.
Lockout - is owners stopping work. Strike - is the union doing it.

I'm assuming the owners were going to lock out again anyways.

Whether the Union strikes or does something more drastic has always been up in the air, but everyday it's looking more realistic.
 

reggiecleveland

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In all honesty, and I don't say this lightly, but I am very worried about your nation. It is not just Trump, obviously he is a sympton, but the people who yell "freedom " all the time want to take it away. For my entire life, even during Vietnam, Canada hitching their wagon to the USA has been a massive positive, but now. Somebody convince me not be scared.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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In all honesty, and I don't say this lightly, but I am very worried about your nation. It is not just Trump, obviously he is a sympton, but the people who yell "freedom " all the time want to take it away. For my entire life, even during Vietnam, Canada hitching their wagon to the USA has been a massive positive, but now. Somebody convince me not be scared.
Most of us honestly know that 45 has no real power. He’s a figurehead. But he’s someone who will do what he’s told. The republicans in office are a bunch of racist pigs and 45 has to hold that party line. We get that. But it’s like this nation is actively trying to undo the amazing progress that occurred under Obama for the last 8 years and send this country back to the 1940s when it comes to social justice. I wish we had a real leader like Trudeau. I’m ashamed to be American and have been for 18 months or so. These owners show that money and privilege rule the day. You’re much better off in Canada.
 

SMU_Sox

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I love football to the point where I am too weak to even consider boycotting it. But I think for me to watch the NFL this year I am going to donate to social justice organizations. I still will feel badly for supporting the NFL. If this were a restaurant or literally anything fucking else than my favorite sport, pastime and hobby, I would be out. I'm disgusted. It's not just outrage towards the NFL but based on the injustices in society right now and the commentary, especially from one side, on it. I'm a sample size of one and torn - I do not know what the right thing to do is as a fan with no effective power to do anything about it.
 

reggiecleveland

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Most of us honestly know that 45 has no real power. He’s a figurehead. But he’s someone who will do what he’s told. The republicans in office are a bunch of racist pigs and 45 has to hold that party line. We get that. But it’s like this nation is actively trying to undo the amazing progress that occurred under Obama for the last 8 years and send this country back to the 1940s when it comes to social justice. I wish we had a real leader like Trudeau. I’m ashamed to be American and have been for 18 months or so. These owners show that money and privilege rule the day. You’re much better off in Canada.
I voted for Trudeau last time, but he is says the right things etc, but has been less than stellar in terms of executing ideas. He has done some needlessly silly things, "My culture is not your photo op!" would be one example. If he payed it a little less showy he could be really effective. We'll see.
 

BigJimEd

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The NBA did double down on their rule correct? They were asked about it and Silver said players were expected to stand and sent out a league wide memo.
I understand they allow other options but am I missing anything else? Policies seem similar and NFL players have protested other ways without any league repercussions
 

axx

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Wow, thank you for clearing that up for us. It's awesome and helpful that you have a telepathic relationship with that many NFL players.
It's sort of a game they are playing. The union is unhappy with the CBA but not to the point to actually do a strike. Unhappy with Goodell's power with the PCP, etc. They know Trump hates the NFL because he's still bitter about the USFL so they know he will needle the league any chance he can. Compare that with (yeah) the NBA where there is labor peace (for now anyway). And this is the NFL's response.
 

Reverend

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Scott Van Pelt's viewpoint last night was, there's no reason to bring back to the forefront a controversy that had largely been dormant for months and was unlikely to bite you in the ass substantially in the future. So instead of people mostly forgetting about it except for maybe a blip in early september, their maneuvers made "WSJ email blast news update" status, were on the front page of every newspaper, and got the President tweeting about them.

Bold strategy, cotton.
So we know they didn’t consult the players in this. And it appears in an attempt to appease Trump, they didn’t consult Trump. And we know that when the Ray Rice thing happened, they didn’t consult any women.

What the hell are they doing down there?

Seriously, I want tape of what they do in that office.
 

Vinho Tinto

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That comment by Kerr was on point. He's great.
He’s full of crap. NBA owners and David Stern imposed the same rule in a similar manner in the 90s. They ran Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf out of the league as soon as they could. Anyone who was alive back then should recall he was vilified for what was a silent protest. NBA players and coaches pretending they work under a different enviornment is absurd.

The NFL should learn from the NBA and develop a program like “NBA Cares” so that management and players have a platform to work together on civic issues.
 

mauf

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He’s full of crap. NBA owners and David Stern imposed the same rule in a similar manner in the 90s. They ran Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf out of the league as soon as they could. Anyone who was alive back then should recall he was vilified for what was a silent protest. NBA players and coaches pretending they work under a different enviornment is absurd.

The NFL should learn from the NBA and develop a program like “NBA Cares” so that management and players have a platform to work together on civic issues.
I admire Abdul-Rauf, but take a look at his stats — he was atrocious (worse than replacement level) after he was traded to Sacramento. I’m sure the added scrutiny from his national anthem stance contributed to his precipitous decline (which roughly coincided with that controversy), but he wasn’t blackballed — he played his way out of the league.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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He’s full of crap. NBA owners and David Stern imposed the same rule in a similar manner in the 90s. They ran Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf out of the league as soon as they could. Anyone who was alive back then should recall he was vilified for what was a silent protest. NBA players and coaches pretending they work under a different enviornment is absurd.
That was about 20 years ago. The league has changed and progressed greatly. Unlike the NFL which seems to relish in its regression.
 

Vinho Tinto

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I admire Abdul-Rauf, but take a look at his stats — he was atrocious (worse than replacement level) after he was traded to Sacramento. I’m sure the added scrutiny from his national anthem stance contributed to his precipitous decline (which roughly coincided with that controversy), but he wasn’t blackballed — he played his way out of the league.
They offered him little or no support for his protest, religion, or mental illness. One bad year at age 28 and his best option was to play in Turkey. There has always been a long leash for past their prime veterans in that league. Look how long Jason Williams played as a marginal player.

I’m sorry, but I look at what happened to him as more of a blackball than Kaepernick. At least most NFL teams can use the excuse that Kaep is a bad fit as a backup.

JMOH: The NBA has allowed the players to wear shirts with messages on them and, as I mentioned, have committed to a partnership with the players via NBA Cares. I recognize they have one of the best player/owner partnerships in sports. That said, they haven’t changed the anthem rule. Adam Silver very publically stated his expectation that no anthem protests would happen before this season. I don’t think a majority of their owners would react too differently than the NFL’s. If it started, the protest would be a discussion that would dominate their league. They would not want that in year two of their current big deal with ESPN. Last year, because of all of the short playoff series, there were estimates that Disney saw a drop of 130 million in ad revenue. When push comes to shove, they tell their players to stand during the anthem or stay in the locker room. That is why, for me, Kerr’s comments ring hollow.
 

mauf

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They offered him little or no support for his protest, religion, or mental illness. One bad year at age 28 and his best option was to play in Turkey. There has always been a long leash for past their prime veterans in that league. Look how long Jason Williams played as a marginal player.

I’m sorry, but I look at what happened to him as more of a blackball than Kaepernick. At least most NFL teams can use the excuse that Kaep is a bad fit as a backup.
On defense, Abdul-Rauf made White Chocolate look like Gary Payton.

Veterans who have one above-average skill have a long leash in the NBA. Once his shot abandoned him in that age-28 season, Abdul-Rauf didn’t have such a skill. Maybe someone takes a flier on him as an 11th-12th man if his name was still Chris Jackson, but most teams would rather give that spot to a young guy than hope that a 29-year old who was a deficient defender on his best day rediscovers his shooting touch.

There are similarities to Kaepernick, but Kaep is pretty clearly better than a majority of the league’s backup QBs, most of whom have no realistic prospect of developing into a decent starter someday. It’s less clear that was the case with Abdul-Rauf — he didn’t have that “plus” skill, and he obviously wasn’t a developmental guy (which was more important then than now — most teams had one player on their roster who would be in the G league today).
 
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The Process

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As a veteran I was really angry by the kneeling during the national anthem at first. I stopped watching the NFL but the more I read and tried to understand why Kap was kneeling I got it. It seems like the NFL is trying to injure itself much like baseball did in 94. We'll see how it turns out but I hope the players use this to be louder about social injustice.

I would like to add that not all Trump supporters are racist and that by labeling them (my wife voted for him) as racist you are generalizing and stereotyping in the same manner of the people you are so against.
 

JayMags71

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They offered him little or no support for his protest, religion, or mental illness. One bad year at age 28 and his best option was to play in Turkey. There has always been a long leash for past their prime veterans in that league. Look how long Jason Williams played as a marginal player.

I’m sorry, but I look at what happened to him as more of a blackball than Kaepernick. At least most NFL teams can use the excuse that Kaep is a bad fit as a backup.
I don’t think you’re wrong, exactly. What happened to MA-R does have parallels with Kaepernick’s situation. However you are talking about the circumstances of one player and kind of glossing over that it happened 20 years ago.

If the NBA blackballed him, that’s indeed shameful. But Stern and Silver have helped the league culture evolve for the better over those twenty years.

Meanwhile, in 2018, Sheriff Roger and his posse of idiots have looked at the same culture from which the NBA has evolved away, and decided “Hey, looks good!”. That’s the very definition of regressive.
 

JoePoulson

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I would like to add that not all Trump supporters are racist and that by labeling them (my wife voted for him) as racist you are generalizing and stereotyping in the same manner of the people you are so against.
But they support(ed) Trump, who has always been racist trash and by voting for him they condond(ed) his bigotry, right? I mean what outcome did a Trump supporter / voter expect to happen?
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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JMOH: The NBA has allowed the players to wear shirts with messages on them and, as I mentioned, have committed to a partnership with the players via NBA Cares. I recognize they have one of the best player/owner partnerships in sports. That said, they haven’t changed the anthem rule. Adam Silver very publically stated his expectation that no anthem protests would happen before this season. I don’t think a majority of their owners would react too differently than the NFL’s. If it started, the protest would be a discussion that would dominate their league. They would not want that in year two of their current big deal with ESPN. Last year, because of all of the short playoff series, there were estimates that Disney saw a drop of 130 million in ad revenue. When push comes to shove, they tell their players to stand during the anthem or stay in the locker room. That is why, for me, Kerr’s comments ring hollow.
I get that. But the NBA gives their players tons of other outlets to express themselves.

I disagree with the bolded, BTW. The owners in the NBA might not be Bernie Sanders, but they seem to be far more tolerant than their NFL brethren.
 

Vinho Tinto

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However you are talking about the circumstances of one player and kind of glossing over that it happened 20 years ago.

If the NBA blackballed him, that’s indeed shameful. But Stern and Silver have helped the league culture evolve for the better over those twenty years.
I’m not glossing over anything and don’t think the league’s management has changed as much as you guys do.

Steve Kerr commented on a rule change that the NFL implemented yesterday. The NBA implemented a similar rule when he was a player and has not changed it since. Silver made it very clear that they have no intention of changing that rule. David Stern has never apologized to Abdul-Rauf for suspending him or letting him dangle in the wind while he was getting crushed.