2018 Draft: Patriots and QBs

Super Nomario

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I've got something coming out in the next day or so over at Pro Football Weekly on this, and why we might see six first round QBs this year. The economics are such that teams can take the risk on a rookie QB because if they play well, they're cost-controlled and you can be aggressive addressing other needs, and if they play poorly, they're easier to move on from than say a huge free agency bust. Last year, half of the playoff teams had a starting QB taking up a lower percentage of their team's salary cap than the league average (league average being 8% of a team's cap). Four of those teams (Jacksonville, Tennessee, Philly and the Rams) while the other two had a free agency bargain (Buffalo and Tyrod, Minnesota and Keenum).

The Seattle example is a good one. You can look to the Rams this offseason as well. Goff accounts for just 4.15% of their cap next year, and look at the players they added this offseason. At some point that bill comes due, but until then you can really maximize that window with a cost-controlled QB.
I think the problem you run into is timing - you get a four-year window where your QB is cheap, plus a fifth below-market year, maybe a sixth if you backlog an extension. So if you draft a young QB with the intention that he sits for a year and then starts, that works. But if you draft him into an uncertain situation where your starting QB might be there two or three seasons, it really eats into that cheap QB window. Brady, Brees, Rivers, and Roethlisberger are all signed through 2019. Is one of those teams going to use a first-round pick on a QB to have him potentially sit for two seasons? Maybe more (given all four of those guys are still good-to-excellent)? It probably makes more sense to look to the 2019 draft (which as I understand it is not considered QB-strong, but none of these four teams is likely to have a crack at any of the top-five QBs this year anyway).

What will be interesting is seeing if teams like Miami and Cincinnati who have decent QBs on expensive contracts start punting on them and going younger, like KC did this year drafting Mahomes. Does this then create a relative glut of competent veterans, depressing salaries in that market, or will there always be more seats than players to fill them in this game of musical chairs?

EDIT: have you read Zach Moore's book Caponomics? He talks a lot about this kind of stuff.
 

BaseballJones

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At some point that bill comes due, but until then you can really maximize that window with a cost-controlled QB.
That's how the Pats really did it early in Brady's career. Brady's #s through 2006, compared with Peyton Manning's:

Year: Brady, Peyton
2000: $231k, $11.1m
2001: $298k, $4.4m
2002: $3.8m, $6.3m
2003: $9.1m, $11.3m
2004: $5.5m, $35.1m

From 2000-2014, Brady made $154.8 million, while Peyton made $229.7 million. Brady made, on average, about $5 million less per year than Peyton Manning did. That $5 million was put to very good use for the most part.
 

dcmissle

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Does this work as a practical matter if the QB starts early and plays really well? If Wentz recovers physically, for example, it’s hard to see the Eagles leveraging the hell out of the back end of his contract.
 

Super Nomario

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Does this work as a practical matter if the QB starts early and plays really well? If Wentz recovers physically, for example, it’s hard to see the Eagles leveraging the hell out of the back end of his contract.
If you're getting MVP- or near-MVP- level production, it probably makes sense to keep the contract pretty flat and hope you get that level of production from a well-paid QB, taking as many swings as you can year-to-year. If you're getting acceptable-to-good production, you probably want to maximize your early window and backload the contract to eke out another cheap season or two and go for broke then. The extension Bortles got this offseason is an example. Garoppolo's contract is an interesting case because his rookie contract ended basically as he emerged as starter, so SF front-loaded the deal, dumping a $37 MM hit in 2018 when they have the space, to make the later years a little more affordable. They're still unlikely to get true bargain seasons unless the cap rises dramatically and / or Jimmy G plays at an MVP- or near-MVP- level.
 

pappymojo

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I think the problem you run into is timing - you get a four-year window where your QB is cheap, plus a fifth below-market year, maybe a sixth if you backlog an extension. So if you draft a young QB with the intention that he sits for a year and then starts, that works. But if you draft him into an uncertain situation where your starting QB might be there two or three seasons, it really eats into that cheap QB window. Brady, Brees, Rivers, and Roethlisberger are all signed through 2019. Is one of those teams going to use a first-round pick on a QB to have him potentially sit for two seasons? Maybe more (given all four of those guys are still good-to-excellent)? It probably makes more sense to look to the 2019 draft (which as I understand it is not considered QB-strong, but none of these four teams is likely to have a crack at any of the top-five QBs this year anyway).

What will be interesting is seeing if teams like Miami and Cincinnati who have decent QBs on expensive contracts start punting on them and going younger, like KC did this year drafting Mahomes. Does this then create a relative glut of competent veterans, depressing salaries in that market, or will there always be more seats than players to fill them in this game of musical chairs?

EDIT: have you read Zach Moore's book Caponomics? He talks a lot about this kind of stuff.
Has anyone done an analysis of projected rookie contracts based on the draft slot versus the replacement player contract based on the player's position?

For example, sportrac projects the 63rd pick to a 4-year contract for roughly $4.5 million That is roughly equal to Brian Hoyer's contract as the current back up QB. Hoyer is on the second year of a 3-year contract for roughly $4.5 million.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/draft/

If the Patriots draft a QB at or later than the 63rd pick, it becomes a value-positive draft pick as long as the drafted player can beat out Hoyer for the backup QB position. If the drafted player eventually becomes the starting QB, the value of the rookie contract is even better.
 

ZMart100

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I wouldn't expect any rookie to beat out Hoyer for the second string QB on the depth chart by week 1.
 

dcmissle

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Today and tomorrow thru Thursday afternoon, have fun. Post every QB story, however outlandish. Revel in them.

Cuz we know in our hearts and guts, come Thursday night, it ends. Almost certainly. They roll out of one of the first rounders, substantially for future considerations — next year. The other one evokes, “WHO!?, from everyone but the pylon guys.

It’s entirely sensible and it usually ends up fine —Mankins 2.0? — but because it’s so responsible, it’s not fun. In fact, at first blush it’s usually disappointing.

These days — right now — are the best this week.
 

BaseballJones

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Today and tomorrow thru Thursday afternoon, have fun. Post every QB story, however outlandish. Revel in them.

Cuz we know in our hearts and guts, come Thursday night, it ends. Almost certainly. They roll out of one of the first rounders, substantially for future considerations — next year. The other one evokes, “WHO!?, from everyone but the pylon guys.

It’s entirely sensible and it usually ends up fine —Mankins 2.0? — but because it’s so responsible, it’s not fun. In fact, at first blush it’s usually disappointing.

These days — right now — are the best this week.
Yep. It's almost 100% certain that we look at the draft and at some point regarding the Patriots and think...WTF? Then there will be some other head-scratching moves and the season will start and there will be at least one totally out of the blue loss and there will be wailing and moaning and there will be some major injuries and then we will watch the Patriots play in the AFC Championship Game, with a very real chance at going to another Super Bowl.
 

JohnnyK

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Last year, half of the playoff teams had a starting QB taking up a lower percentage of their team's salary cap than the league average (league average being 8% of a team's cap). Four of those teams (Jacksonville, Tennessee, Philly and the Rams) while the other two had a free agency bargain (Buffalo and Tyrod, Minnesota and Keenum).
I realize you refer explicitly to starting QBs but isn't Minnesota a rather bad example considering they still had about 20 million tied up in quarterbacks, since Bradford's cap hit was 18 million?
 

mascho

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I realize you refer explicitly to starting QBs but isn't Minnesota a rather bad example considering they still had about 20 million tied up in quarterbacks, since Bradford's cap hit was 18 million?
Yeah, when you add Bradford in it bumps things up, as Bradford accounted for 11.72% of their cap space, putting them over the average.
 

DourDoerr

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One of my favorite times of the year and it's an intense bubble. This morning I had a news channel on in the background and heard "he is a Patriot" and my head shot up at the tv screen. It turns out Dr. Ronny Jackson was being discussed. My bad - clearly he'd be an UFA at best.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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I'm starting to get a totally-irrational-based-on-nothing paranoia about QBs flying off the board so quickly that the Pats may be forced to consider Rudolph or Lauletta at #31, which I'd totally hate.

But I'm the panicky type, and thank God BB is not.

Apropos of nothing, have you ever heard of a more "he's a backup QB -- not a starter, but a backup QB" name than "Logan Woodside".
 

Super Nomario

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I'm starting to get a totally-irrational-based-on-nothing paranoia about QBs flying off the board so quickly that the Pats may be forced to consider Rudolph or Lauletta at #31, which I'd totally hate.

But I'm the panicky type, and thank God BB is not.
They're not forced to do anything. They have the reigning MVP starting at QB and they have a competent backup. If QB value is there they should take it, but there's no reason to do anything dumb.

IApropos of nothing, have you ever heard of a more "he's a backup QB -- not a starter, but a backup QB" name than "Logan Woodside".
Mike White is good, too. Just such a forgettable name, he seems like the kind of guy who's in training camp somewhere three years from now with his sixth different organization and people are still pissed that he got signed instead of Kaepernick.
 

SMU_Sox

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Apropos of nothing, have you ever heard of a more "he's a backup QB -- not a starter, but a backup QB" name than "Logan Woodside".
Mike White is good, too. Just such a forgettable name, he seems like the kind of guy who's in training camp somewhere three years from now with his sixth different organization and people are still pissed that he got signed instead of Kaepernick.
This might fetch me the wrath of E5 and others who might like him but Luke Falk is that guy to me. He Falked it up again. Falked up that throw.
 

Super Nomario

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This might fetch me the wrath of E5 and others who might like him but Luke Falk is that guy to me. He Falked it up again. Falked up that throw.
I kind of like Luke Falk, both the name and the game. Baker Mayfield and Lamar Jackson I think are the two best names of the top guys. I'm not a fan of putting my franchise in the hands of someone named "Josh" or "Darnold."
 

ZMart100

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I kind of like Luke Falk, both the name and the game. Baker Mayfield and Lamar Jackson I think are the two best names of the top guys. I'm not a fan of putting my franchise in the hands of someone named "Josh" or "Darnold."
You might want to get used to having the franchise in the hands of a Josh. Hopefully you have plenty of time.
 

HurstSoGood

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Any chance Luke Falk's nickname is not "Millennium?"

People will soon be asking how many yards there are in a parsec and whether or not the Kessel Run is in the team playbook.
 

pappymojo

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"Cool Hand" Luke if he leads a bunch of fourth quarter come backs. "Cool Hand" Luke if it is just a bunch of eggs.
 

Captaincoop

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At this point the Pats are better off grabbing a guy drafted in the first 3 rounds of one of the previous 3-4 drafts who busted with a previous team and trying to rebuild him.
 

axx

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Sooo.. now that the Pats didn't take an early round QB they will need to next year. Too early to ask who might be available at the middle-end of the first round next year?
 

DJnVa

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Sooo.. now that the Pats didn't take an early round QB they will need to next year. Too early to ask who might be available at the middle-end of the first round next year?
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/friday-five-ranking-the-top-2019-nfl-draft-quarterback-prospects-heading-into-next-season/

Remember, last season, this guy had Baker Mayfield as an honorable mention on this list, and he just went #1.

1-Stidham, Auburn
2-Herbert, Oregon (6'6, but somewhat mobile)
3-Lock, Mizzou
4-Bentley, SC
5-Findley, NC State

Honorable Mention: Jake Browning, Washington; Will Grier, West Virginia; Daniel Jones, Duke; Trace McSorley, Penn State; Clayton Thorson, Northwestern

Because we didn't *really* take one this year, I think we could start a thread in late summer as the college season kicks off and track some of these guys.
 

DJnVa

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It looks good for Mills’ client if the Patriots wanted him. He’s likely not going to shut up unless the Patriots put out denial.
 

SMU_Sox

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Because we didn't *really* take one this year, I think we could start a thread in late summer as the college season kicks off and track some of these guys.
Great idea! I volunteer to help track it and post relevant ITP/NDT Draft Twitter writers work on it as well.

As for Etling Caserio explained the process behind scouting him and what they liked.

Caserio pointed out that the Patriots are trying to get a feel for each team's upcoming senior prospects with its early scouting and were therefore watching Etling as well. “We did some work on him in the spring just as part of our spring process, and then we went through the fall, we did some work and then we just kind of continue to work through the process here a little bit,” explained Caserio.

“He went to the Tropical Bowl, which is kind of an off-the-radar sort of all-star game, but he had exposure there, was invited to the Combine,” Bill Belichick's right-hand man continued. “He had a pretty extensive pro day – I mean, I think he threw like 150 balls, honest to God, at his pro day – so, he threw a lot of balls. It was a pretty extensive workout. [...] It’s an accumulation of everything over the course of X number of years.”

“How quickly can you handle that, can you process that, can you understand that [transferring from Purdue to LSU], can you apply it and take that information? There are some examples and some evidence of him doing that,” said Caserio about the passer who finished his career at LSU having completed 59.7% of his 544 attempts for 4,586 yards, 27 touchdowns and seven interceptions. “That’s something that Danny worked on to his credit.”

“Especially with a quarterback, your mechanics are something you continually work on,” Caserio continued when talking about Etling's development as a passer. “You may notice from his play at LSU during the season and then through the spring even at his pro day, you saw some subtle adjustments or things that he did to help improve his mechanics.”
0 expectations for him but I think the Patriots have proven over the years that they can develop QBs. QB2 is a valuable position. The odds are because of where he was selected in the draft he is probably not going to amount to much. But he did show some aspects of mental toughness/discipline by learning a new system with transferring and working on his mechanics throughout the process and that has some value to the Patriots... in the 7th round.
 

RedOctober3829

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Baker Mayfield's agent told Andrew Brandt that the Patriots were considering trading all the way up to #2 to draft Mayfield. That jives with Dave Gettelman's comments yesterday on WFAN about receiving "a very reasonable offer" for the #2 pick.


Mike Giardi: At least 2 AFC East teams were told by Mayfield's camp that the Pats were hunting for the Oklahoma QB. Just spoke to a team source who said Mayfield was the closest thing to Garoppolo in this draft.
 

splendid splinter

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Baker Mayfield's agent told Andrew Brandt that the Patriots were considering trading all the way up to #2 to draft Mayfield. That jives with Dave Gettelman's comments yesterday on WFAN about receiving "a very reasonable offer" for the #2 pick.


Mike Giardi: At least 2 AFC East teams were told by Mayfield's camp that the Pats were hunting for the Oklahoma QB. Just spoke to a team source who said Mayfield was the closest thing to Garoppolo in this draft.
Why would the Patriots have made an offer once Mayfield went off the board? They would have waited until the Giants were on the clock, to make sure he was still available. I don’t think they were the team looking to move.

I’m also not buying the Pats being interested in trading that high for him. It would be very unlike them to give his agent that info - what benefit is there to them in doing that? Seems more likely they told him that to see if word would get out and the Bills or Jets would throw away some assets to jump up and get him, if he was their guy.
 

RedOctober3829

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Why would the Patriots have made an offer once Mayfield went off the board? They would have waited until the Giants were on the clock, to make sure he was still available. I don’t think they were the team looking to move.

I’m also not buying the Pats being interested in trading that high for him. It would be very unlike them to give his agent that info - what benefit is there to them in doing that? Seems more likely they told him that to see if word would get out and the Bills or Jets would throw away some assets to jump up and get him, if he was their guy.
They didn't have to do it once on the clock. They probably called the Giants and made a trade offer contigent on Mayfield being there at 2.
 

OurF'ingCity

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It looks good for Mills’ client if the Patriots wanted him.
Exactly this. Mills has every incentive in the world to blow whatever interest the Patriots may have had out of proportion. The Browns are getting shit on left and right for taking his client #1 over some of the other options, so to me this is purely damage control. (Idiotic damage control since, even if true, he just made clear to the Patriots they should never give him any confidential information again.)
 

splendid splinter

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They didn't have to do it once on the clock. They probably called the Giants and made a trade offer contigent on Mayfield being there at 2.
True, but I’m still just not seeing it. That would infuriate Brady and be tantamount to shoving him out the door. And they had no reason to tell Mayfield’s agent.

Edit: I think they told him hoping he’d leak it to other teams, and he did. Didn’t result in anything when he went first, but it could have been helpful misdirection if he hadn’t.
 

RedOctober3829

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True, but I’m still just not seeing it. That would infuriate Brady and be tantamount to shoving him out the door. And they had no reason to tell Mayfield’s agent.

Edit: I think they told him hoping he’d leak it to other teams, and he did. Didn’t result in anything when he went first, but it could have been helpful misdirection if he hadn’t.
Who cares if it would have made Brady mad? They have to plan for the future and if they thought Mayfield would be the next guy then get him.
 

splendid splinter

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Who cares if it would have made Brady mad? They have to plan for the future and if they thought Mayfield would be the next guy then get him.
I think they do care about that, in the case of Brady. But more importantly I don’t think they would give up what it would have taken to move up to 2, which is basically the entire top 2 rounds of their draft, and probably more. I think they liked Mayfield and if he dropped they might have made a move on him. But I’m not buying any rumored interest in going up to 2 for him. And definitely not buying them alerting Baker’s agent - and thereby the rest of the AFC East, as we’ve learned - of their real plans. It was a smokescreen, in my opinion.
 

tims4wins

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When the CFB football season ended it was conceivable that Mayfield was a late first round or even a second round pick. So obviously the Pats did a ton of due diligence. I don't believe for a second they would have traded up to 2 to get him. Maybe with the Niners at #9.
 

DJnVa

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True, but I’m still just not seeing it. That would infuriate Brady and be tantamount to shoving him out the door. And they had no reason to tell Mayfield’s agent.
It's also possible that this was a possibility if Brady had come to them and said that this was going to be the last year.
Also, they wanted to work him out and he wasn't going to do it because he wasn't falling to #23.
 

dcmissle

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Who cares if it would have made Brady mad? They have to plan for the future and if they thought Mayfield would be the next guy then get him.
Understood, but it would have cost them at least two starters, both firsts, to move up meaningfully, and the second round pick too if the move up had been big enough.

Which would mean they'd have to have THE perfect ride to compete next year.
 

RedOctober3829

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Understood, but it would have cost them at least two starters, both firsts, to move up meaningfully, and the second round pick too if the move up had been big enough.

Which would mean they'd have to have THE perfect ride to compete next year.
I understand that. I'm not saying I'd have done it, but if they were absolutely convinced Mayfield is the next guy then it makes sense to try to get him.
 

Harry Hooper

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Maroney and Tebow were 1st-round picks that Josh lusted after. I hope his opinion isn't getting heavy weighting in the Pats draft board evaluations of players.
 

djbayko

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True, but I’m still just not seeing it. That would infuriate Brady and be tantamount to shoving him out the door. And they had no reason to tell Mayfield’s agent.

Edit: I think they told him hoping he’d leak it to other teams, and he did. Didn’t result in anything when he went first, but it could have been helpful misdirection if he hadn’t.
If this infuriated Brady, then he's a petty man. Even he'd admit that he's gone someday, and it's not like this move puts him on the bench. The Pats have to think about the future too.
 

tims4wins

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By all accounts wasn't Brady semi-pissed about the Jimmy pick, which increased his competitive fire and made him better?
 

OurF'ingCity

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As expected, this was either (a) Mayfield's agent straight-up lying to make his client seem better and more in demand to counteract all the criticism the Browns were getting or (b) subterfuge by the Patriots in the hopes that Mayfield's agent would blab to the Jets, etc. and get them to give something up to move up to #2 for no reason (or, possibly, just a lame attempt to convince Mayfield to work out for the Pats).
 

dcmissle

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Mayfield’s agent did spectacularly well for Mayfield.