The bench thread

Savin Hillbilly · Mar 14, 2018

Papelbon's Poutine said:
He didn’t go to arbitration, they agreed on a contract before that process occurred; I’m pretty sure that only applies if they go to a hearing and he’s awarded a settlement, one way or the other. According to sportrac and cot’s, his contract is guaranteed. I’ve yet to see it posed as such elsewhere, unless someone has a link they’d like to share.

The MLB site is ambiguous on this. The page on "What Is a Guaranteed Contract?" only recognizes four kinds of contracts: those reached "via free agency or extensions" (guaranteed), minor league contracts (not guaranteed), and "arbitration contracts" (guaranteed if the player breaks camp with the team). A contract that avoids arbitration doesn't seem to fall into any of these categories, but it might if we interpret "arbitration contract" as meaning a contract signed by an arbitration-eligible player, whether after an arbitration process or in pre-emption of it. I don't know if that's the correct interpretation, but it seems like a reasonable one. I suppose a pre-emptive contract could also be considered an "extension," though this seems like a stretch.

Papelbon's Poutine · Mar 14, 2018

Savin Hillbilly said:
The MLB site is ambiguous on this. The page on "What Is a Guaranteed Contract?" only recognizes four kinds of contracts: those reached "via free agency or extensions" (guaranteed), minor league contracts (not guaranteed), and "arbitration contracts" (guaranteed if the player breaks camp with the team). A contract that avoids arbitration doesn't seem to fall into any of these categories, but it might if we interpret "arbitration contract" as meaning a contract signed by an arbitration-eligible player, whether after an arbitration process or in pre-emption of it. I don't know if that's the correct interpretation, but it seems like a reasonable one. I suppose a pre-emptive contract could also be considered an "extension," though this seems like a stretch.

I see it the opposite - an ‘arbitration contract’ I would deem as one being awarded by an arbiter. If a player avoids arbitration by agreeing to a contract, I don’t see how it is a stretch to consider that an extension and therefore guaranteed. I think it’s much more a stretch to consider settling as an arbitration contract, but ymmv. I’d think the word ‘eligible’ would be woven in somewhere in that language were that the case.

Let’s pose the the question this way - isn’t one of the base level benefits of agreeing before going to hearing that you’re locking in a salary? Otherwise, why do it? They never got to the point of submitting figures with Holt, but I can’t imagine he would have asked for all that much of a raise and he didn’t get much anyways. Why not ask for a little more and let it go either to arb or meet in the middle, of neither was guaranteed?

Edit: and again, anyone got a link that speculates that it’s not guaranteed? Because I’ve yet to see one, anywhere.

Savin Hillbilly · Mar 15, 2018

Papelbon's Poutine said:
Let’s pose the the question this way - isn’t one of the base level benefits of agreeing before going to hearing that you’re locking in a salary? Otherwise, why do it?

To avoid going to arbitration, losing, and having to settle for less?

I mean, turn this around--if agreeing before arbitration means guaranteeing an otherwise non-guaranteed contract, why would a team ever settle ahead of time for any marginal player like Holt? How can the very modest potential salary saving be worth the loss in flexibility?

Bigpupp · Mar 15, 2018

I'm sure someone can track down a link, but off the top of my head, Tony Graffanino agreed to a 1 year/$2.05 before the 2006 season, but was cut by the Red Sox before the date that his contract would have become guaranteed. Here is his Baseball Prospectus page that shows that the Red Sox only owed him 45 days of pay for that year.

judyb · Mar 15, 2018

I would think it would depend on the terms of the contract they agreed to, if the team agreed to make it guaranteed at the time it would be, if the player agreed to the contract without the team doing that, I'd think it would be the same as if they went through the arbitration process.

DanoooME · Mar 15, 2018

Well, here's some notes on what could happen with Stephen Vogt. I'll quote some key points

Moreover, Vogt is out of minor league options and is on a non-guaranteed arbitration contract. The Brewers could still cut him between now and Opening Day and only owe Vogt 45 days of termination pay — or $750K of his $3.05MM arbitration salary.

Depending on the severity of Vogt’s shoulder, Milwaukee could cut him loose and try to bring him back to the organization on a new minor league contract. If he does ultimately make the roster, Vogt would be guaranteed the full $3.05MM to which he agreed in arbitration, even if he were to land on the disabled list to begin the year.

Looks like all arbitration contracts are non-guaranteed until the start of the season.

Here's some of the details from the CBA regarding termination pay:

B. Spring Training

A Player whose Contract is terminated by a Club under paragraph 7(b)(2) of the Uniform Player’s Contract for failure to exhibit sufficient skill or competitive ability shall be entitled to receive termination pay from the Club in an amount equal to thirty (30) days’ payment at 36 the rate stipulated in paragraph 2 of his Contract, if the termination occurs during Spring Training but on or before the 16th day prior to the start of the championship season. If the termination occurs during Spring Training, but subsequent to the 16th day prior to the start of the championship season, the Player’s termination pay shall be in an amount equal to forty-five (45) days’ payment at the rate stipulated in paragraph 2 of his Contract.

There's more to this, but it's going to take more research.

Pozo the Clown · Mar 15, 2018

From the article linked below:

If there's a player Cora feels a personal affinity for, it's Marrero. Cora considered himself a similar player during the early portion of his career, when his glove got him to the big leagues, but only the development of his bat would keep him there.

"The guy that I've been talking a little bit more lately is Deven," Cora said. "Because I see Deven, I see myself, as a player. Great defensively and offensively, not so great, but there's a part of his offensive game that needs to get better and he knows it. I would love him to see him play with the same confidence as he does defensively in that batter's box. He's striking out too much, so we're talking about him hitting the ball the other way, moving guys over. He needs to improve that and he knows it."

Hmm.

http://www.weei.com/blogs/john-tomase/battle-brewing-utility-spots-red-sox-roster-blake-swihart-brock-holt-struggling

Harry Hooper · Mar 18, 2018

McAdam has a note about the Sox possibly breaking camp with an 11-man pitching staff. He says Swihart is a given to be on the MLB roster:

The Sox are staring at some tough roster decisions, given that a number of their “on the bubble’’ position players are out of options.

It’s a given Blake Swihart, who falls into that category, will make the team and be part of the bench, able to help out behind the plate, at first and third, DH and left field.

But carrying an extra position player early would also allow the Sox to retain infielder Deven Marrerofor a while longer. Marrero is also out of options, and figures to be claimed if the Sox attempt to outright him to Pawtucket.

BSJ

Pozo the Clown · Mar 18, 2018

Harry Hooper said:
McAdam has a note about the Sox possibly breaking camp with an 11-man pitching staff. He says Swihart is a given to be on the MLB roster:

BSJ

Swihart is the starting 3rd basemen in today's game.

Sandy Leon Trotsky · Mar 19, 2018

Anyone who pays closer attention this time of year want to discuss what we have in Sam Travis? I know his buzz (a very small buzz when there even was one...) is pretty much gone, but he seems to be looking good in ST. I don't expect him to make it on the 25 man out of Spring Training at this point- as he needs to show some consistency at AAA. Anyone have any insight on to where he could end up after ST wraps up?

grimshaw · Mar 20, 2018

Drelich is hearing Marrero or Holt may be on the move with Swihart making the team.
http://www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/boston-red-sox-signal-theyll-keep-blake-swihart-may-trade-deven-marrero-or-brock-holt

McAdam had noted earlier that he thought it possible they carry 11 pitchers, but I just don't see it as feasible since the starters aren't nearly stretched out enough. Even with the early weak competition that would be a lot of bullpen innings.

Pozo the Clown · Mar 20, 2018

grimshaw said:
Drelich is hearing Marrero or Holt may be on the move with Swihart making the team.
http://www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/boston-red-sox-signal-theyll-keep-blake-swihart-may-trade-deven-marrero-or-brock-holt

McAdam had noted earlier that he thought it possible they carry 11 pitchers, but I just don't see it as feasible since the starters aren't nearly stretched out enough. Even with the early weak competition that would be a lot of bullpen innings.

Cafardo is echoing the notion that Marrero might be on the move:

Deven Marrero, INF, Red Sox — Marrero is drawing interest from teams as he’s out of minor league options. Alex Cora said the other day that he would not need to carry an extra infielder who can also play third base, even with concerns about Rafael Devers’s defense. Neither Brock Holt nor Eduardo Nunez are considered good fielding third basemen. Marrero was terrific there last season.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/03/17/which-pitchers-are-still-available-free-agency-and-trades/ZtcG0DfKaizogmlvkrauxN/story.html

RIrooter09 · Mar 20, 2018

I'd rather trade Holt, but I guess Marrero has more value as the younger/cheaper option.

Jerry’s Curl · Mar 20, 2018

Pozo the Clown said:
Cafardo is echoing the notion that Marrero might be on the move:

Deven Marrero, INF, Red Sox — Marrero is drawing interest from teams as he’s out of minor league options. Alex Cora said the other day that he would not need to carry an extra infielder who can also play third base, even with concerns about Rafael Devers’s defense. Neither Brock Holt nor Eduardo Nunez are considered good fielding third basemen. Marrero was terrific there last season.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/03/17/which-pitchers-are-still-available-free-agency-and-trades/ZtcG0DfKaizogmlvkrauxN/story.html

With Devers looking like an offensive beast, I think the Sox are willing to sacrifice defense at third. Not that Marrero would get much PT there anyway besides a late-inning defensive replacement. They like the Swiss Army knife ability of Swihart over Marrero’s defense, apparently.

DeweyWins · Mar 20, 2018

Trotsky said:
Anyone who pays closer attention this time of year want to discuss what we have in Sam Travis? I know his buzz (a very small buzz when there even was one...) is pretty much gone, but he seems to be looking good in ST. I don't expect him to make it on the 25 man out of Spring Training at this point- as he needs to show some consistency at AAA. Anyone have any insight on to where he could end up after ST wraps up?

Sam Travis is an interesting case. He's shown some in-game power this spring against basically AA-quality pitching, but has generally not produced home run power in his career. He's currently a one-tool player (hitting for average) at a position that absolutely demands that if a player only has one tool, it is hitting for power. In the Dominican Winter League, he did not show much to indicate that he even has the one tool.

He's still only 24, but he has a small window of opportunity before we have to say that he is what he is.

That all being said, I like Travis a lot, and could see him be Moreland's backup next year or even be a primary first baseman if he can keep the power going without sacrificing too much on the average side and improving his plate discipline a bit.

Comps, in my humble opinion:

Low end, he's the 2nd half of Allen Craig's career
High end, he's the 1st half of Allen Craig's career, maybe a Jeff Conine
In the middle... he's Kevin Millar's bat, if not his presence on the bench and clubhouse

Savin Hillbilly · Mar 20, 2018

I might go back further for a comp than Millar. Good contact, discipline and BABIP, but ISO more suited for a shortstop than a 1B, average-ish defense....this sure looks like the second coming of Carlos Quintana.

DeweyWins · Mar 22, 2018

Savin Hillbilly said:
I might go back further for a comp than Millar. Good contact, discipline and BABIP, but ISO more suited for a shortstop than a 1B, average-ish defense....this sure looks like the second coming of Carlos Quintana.

Yikes, you could be right about the Quintana comp. That should have been on my radar, but I overlooked him completely. That probably replaces the Millar comp, or at least complements it. It certainly doesn't compliment it.

Jerry’s Curl · Mar 22, 2018

Holt had some interesting comments about his future with the club. Wonder if he turned off Cora and DD.

Savin Hillbilly · Mar 22, 2018

DeweyWins said:
Yikes, you could be right about the Quintana comp. That should have been on my radar, but I overlooked him completely. That probably replaces the Millar comp, or at least complements it. It certainly doesn't compliment it.

Hey, Quintana had a couple of seasons as a fringe-average full-time player. He was a starter for a playoff team. His career was extremely short but otherwise not terrible. Travis could do worse.

Jerry’s Curl said:
Holt had some interesting comments about his future with the club. Wonder if he turned off Cora and DD.

Link?

Jerry’s Curl · Mar 22, 2018

Savin Hillbilly said:
Hey, Quintana had a couple of seasons as a fringe-average full-time player. He was a starter for a playoff team. His career was extremely short but otherwise not terrible. Travis could do worse.

Link?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nesn.com/2018/03/red-soxs-brock-holt-weighs-in-on-his-uncertain-roster-situation/amp/

Rasputin · Mar 22, 2018

Savin Hillbilly said:
Hey, Quintana had a couple of seasons as a fringe-average full-time player. He was a starter for a playoff team. His career was extremely short but otherwise not terrible. Travis could do worse.

Also keep in mind that Qs career was cut short by injuries sustained while ramming a jeep into a bridge.

Also also it was a long time ago but I remember Qs defense as being better than average.

Also also also there've been af ew articles about them specificially working with Travis about increasing his power. If that works, we can let Ramirez go and use some combination of Travis and Moreland until we're convinced Chavis is ready to be the guy.

shaggydog2000 · Mar 22, 2018

Rasputin said:
Also also also there've been af ew articles about them specificially working with Travis about increasing his power. If that works, we can let Ramirez go and use some combination of Travis and Moreland until we're convinced Chavis is ready to be the guy.

They've always talked about Travis having good raw power and how this time around he's going to show it, but his in game power just never shows up. His AAA Iso is .126. That is below average for a middle infielder these days. His 270/344/396 overall AAA batting line would average for a 2B in the majors. He's not considered an above average fielder or baserunner. He doesn't give you flexibility in the positions he can play (Although he was supposedly trying to play some outfield this spring?). So he really, really has to establish a nice long track record of improved power before he is going to be talked about as a potential major leaguer again. Barring multiple injuries of course.

InsideTheParker · Mar 22, 2018

I wonder if BHolt would get claimed off waivers.

Pozo the Clown · Mar 22, 2018

Add primary pinch runner to Swihart's job description?

Per the article linked below:

"A catcher as a team's primary pinch-running threat?

"I'm not the typical catcher, you know that," said Blake Swihart.

And that is why the Red Sox are leaning toward using Swihart, who is in line to make the Opening Day roster as the team's third catcher/utilityman, as their best option to add a little late-game speed on the basepaths if needed.

"You can tell he has some speed," said Red Sox first base/baserunning coach Tom Goodwin, who stole 369 career bases, including 66 in one season (1996).

"I stole a lot of bases," Swihart said. "In high school, anytime I could, I would. I'm excited to get back doing it."

http://www.weei.com/blogs/rob-bradford/who-red-sox-pinch-running-threat-probably-catcher

Jerry’s Curl · Mar 22, 2018

Rasputin said:
Also keep in mind that Qs career was cut short by injuries sustained while ramming a jeep into a bridge.

Also also it was a long time ago but I remember Qs defense as being better than average.

Also also also there've been af ew articles about them specificially working with Travis about increasing his power. If that works, we can let Ramirez go and use some combination of Travis and Moreland until we're convinced Chavis is ready to be the guy.

I kinda wish we didn’t sign Moreland the way Sam Travis is playing.

Pozo the Clown · Mar 22, 2018

Jerry’s Curl said:
I kinda wish we didn’t sign Moreland the way Sam Travis is playing.

Let's see what Travis can do at AAA this year before we deem him ready for The Show. Additionally, he's a righty, so he would not make for a good platoon partner with Hanley at 1st.

grimshaw · Mar 22, 2018

Obviously he is a long shot but Ivan De Jesus has had a good spring - .364/404/.455.
In 2016 he played all 4 infield positions in Cincy. He didn't make the majors in 2017, though had a wRC+ 136 in AAA.

He hasn't even been mentioned but I'm not sure there would be a huge drop off between him, Holt or Marrero.

Red(s)HawksFan · Mar 22, 2018

grimshaw said:
Obviously he is a long shot but Ivan De Jesus has had a good spring - .364/404/.455.
In 2016 he played all 4 infield positions in Cincy. He didn't make the majors in 2017, though had a wRC+ 136 in AAA.

He hasn't even been mentioned but I'm not sure there would be a huge drop off between him, Holt or Marrero.

He's a good insurance piece to keep around in Pawtucket, but you don't elevate him over any of the guys already on the 40-man roster even if he's out performing them in spring training.

InsideTheParker · Mar 22, 2018

Swihart is still an unimpressive defensive catcher, judging by today's game.

richgedman'sghost · Mar 22, 2018

What happened.. it's not on TV here in Florida.. Care to elaborate?

DeweyWins · Mar 22, 2018

Savin Hillbilly said:
Hey, Quintana had a couple of seasons as a fringe-average full-time player. He was a starter for a playoff team. His career was extremely short but otherwise not terrible. Travis could do worse.

Hey, I'm not downing Quintana, but I do admit I'd rather forget about first base from this time. 1990 is a season I'd just as soon forget given the personnel changes before, during, and after that season, regardless of the fact it was a playoff year.

<TLDR>
1990 was the end of an era for some guys (no Rice or Stanley in '90, no Evans (though he put up a good swan song in Baltimore), Gedman, or Barrett after '90, a change of scenery for others (The Can, Sam Horn, Lee Smith), and the thievery of a home-grown, home-town guy (Bagwell).

On one hand, I can think of at least three guys whom I would have liked to see get plate appearances that were taken by Quintana or Buckner.

In no particular order:

Lancellotti
Horn
Bagwell

Obviously, Lancellotti and Horn getting a full season of MLB plate appearances would be absurd, in hind-sight, as first basemen. I argue they would be no less absurd than making Bagwell cross the diamond to play first base in 1990. Bagwell's 1990 season pre-dates Moneyball by 12 years, but it sticks out as an indicator that, while he didn't have the home run power yet, that power was developing in addition to his plate discipline. Was Larry Andersen worth it? Not in hindsight.
</TLDR>

InsideTheParker · Mar 22, 2018

richgedman'sghost said:
What happened.. it's not on TV here in Florida.. Care to elaborate?

I'm sorry not to be able to give examples. I was in the car and distracted. But I do remember him dropping the ball and looking at the box score, he had two throwing errors.

Savin Hillbilly · Mar 22, 2018

InsideTheParker said:
I'm sorry not to be able to give examples. I was in the car and distracted. But I do remember him dropping the ball and looking at the box score, he had two throwing errors.

The box score only shows one throwing error.

Mighty Joe Young · Mar 22, 2018

InsideTheParker said:
I'm sorry not to be able to give examples. I was in the car and distracted. But I do remember him dropping the ball and looking at the box score, he had two throwing errors.

If he was still in the game then one of the throwing errors should have been handled by the infielder covering the bag on the steal attempt. He just whiffed on the throw .. knocking it into LF

InsideTheParker · Mar 22, 2018

Savin Hillbilly said:
The box score only shows one throwing error.

Does the #2 in the E section refer to two errors all ST?

Savin Hillbilly · Mar 22, 2018

InsideTheParker said:
Does the #2 in the E section refer to two errors all ST?

Yes. The number inside the parentheses means how many in the season (ST being a season for this purpose). It's only if there's a number before the parentheses that it means how many in the game.

Dewey'sCannon · Mar 23, 2018

It was a one-hop throw to second by Blake on a delayed steal (on a ball in the dirt, IIRC). Because of the circumstances, he rushed it a bit, and it was not a great throw, but the SS did a pretty lame 'ole trying to swipe it. He got the error because the swipe knocked the ball into CF and the runner took third.

richgedman'sghost · Mar 23, 2018

So in other words, Blake only committed one error and it should have properly been charged to the shortstop. Looks like Inside the Parker was mistaken.

Just a bit outside · Mar 23, 2018

richgedman'sghost said:
So in other words, Blake only committed one error and it should have properly been charged to the shortstop. Looks like Inside the Parker was mistaken.

No, it was a rushed and bad throw by Swihart when he was fooled by a delayed steal. The shortstop could have done more to block the throw but it was a poor defensive play.

Rasputin · Mar 24, 2018

Jerry’s Curl said:
I kinda wish we didn’t sign Moreland the way Sam Travis is playing.

Every decision would be easier if we knew what the future would bring.

Rasputin · Mar 24, 2018

Some moves today.

Graphic stolen from Tom Caron on Twitter.

Buzzkill Pauley · Mar 24, 2018

Wow. With Scott headed down to AAA, it really looks like the Sox might be breaking camp with only 11 arms. Not sure how I feel about that, with no true long man in the pen.

Red(s)HawksFan · Mar 24, 2018

Buzzkill Pauley said:
Wow. With Scott headed down to AAA, it really looks like the Sox might be breaking camp with only 11 arms. Not sure how I feel about that, with no true long man in the pen.

Crazy things can happen, of course, but one would hope that Sale, Price and Porcello could go deep enough to not need a long man (extra innings excluded) in their starts. The most likely candidate to necessitate a long man is probably Velazquez if he's the starter in the fourth game. In that case, they could use Johnson in that role and call up someone to start the first game in Miami.

All that said, I think the chances are good they carry seven relievers to start the year anyway: Kimbrel, Smith, Kelly, Barnes, Hembree, Workman, and Maddox. There's also a chance they select Poyner or Layne and use him in place of Maddox so they have a lefty. No true long man but it's not like Maddox or Workman (or Poyner) couldn't be pushed for 2-3 innings and optioned for a fresh arm if necessary.

DeadlySplitter · Mar 24, 2018

Scott looked pretty bad lately, I'm glad they made that move.

Red(s)HawksFan · Mar 24, 2018

Marrero has been traded to the Diamondbacks for cash. Looks like Holt is the utility infielder and the roster is pretty much set save the back end of the pen.

Rich Garces Belly · Mar 24, 2018

Marrero to Arizona for PTBNL or cash.

I wish they had cut Holt instead as Marrerro can play D, and I trust him at SS if X is out for a while over Nunez.

Any chance we still cut Holt and have Lin on the ML roster to start the season?

bosockboy · Mar 24, 2018

What happens to Holt when Pedroia is back?

Buzzkill Pauley · Mar 24, 2018

Rich Garces Belly said:
Marrero to Arizona for PTBNL or cash.

I wish they had cut Holt instead as Marrerro can play D, and I trust him at SS if X is out for a while over Nunez.

Any chance we still cut Holt and have Lin on the ML roster to start the season?

Nope. Lin was optioned to AAA today.

InsideTheParker · Mar 24, 2018

During one of the ST games, someone mentioned that Cora wanted to see Marrero shorten up and go the other way more, and then Marrero seemed to me to persist in his HR or bust mode.

Lose Remerswaal · Mar 24, 2018

bosockboy said:
What happens to Holt when Pedroia is back?

We don't have to make that decision right now. These things usually have a way of working themselves out

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