Clubhouse Chemistry Issues?

What should we expect from less tension? Another 93 wins? More?

I think it went beyond younger players not being comfortable playing under Farrell's management style. And while I don't want to make more of what has already been discussed ad nauseum, all one needs to do is reflect back on the sophomoric and childish antics of the older players in the Eckersley affair. That had nothing to do with Farrell, but showed a self-centered, self-serving and, quite frankly, complete lack of maturity on the team writ large. Maybe that type of behavior created some tension of the "they-do-that-kinda-shit-up-here?" kind, leading to questioning and uncertainty among the younger players. I can very easily imagine that somebody thought, "Man, I thought somebody would have stepped up."

2017 is over. We're on to 2018.

From a completely uninformed perspective, based on limited information, if I were to write a book about the 2017 Red Sox it would be titled "Missing Papi".

I think 2017 was just a mess from multiple angles that had this impact. Losing the face of the team, the Price-Eck fight, Pedey throwing his team under the bus in Baltimore, etc. all piled up. Farrell I don't think was the leader to navigate through so many potholes for whatever reason, and it just kept snowballing.

Trautwein's Degree said:

From a completely uninformed perspective, based on limited information, if I were to write a book about the 2017 Red Sox it would be titled "Missing Papi".

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Yes and no. I have little doubt that Ortiz's departure created a giant hole in the team's personality, one which no veteran truly stepped up to fill and which left the younger players more exposed to scrutiny. On the other hand, Papi was present during Chicken n' Beer so his gravitas didn't always have the juice to prevent bad behavior from running amok in the clubhouse.

maufman said:

I hope Cora is the answer, but I’m not overly optimistic. I don’t think I’d enjoy having either Dustin Pedroia or David Price as a colleague, and the other veterans strike me as quiet guys who do their jobs and keep their heads down.

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I think the Yankees went through something similar with Jeter. His presence always seemed to be so sobering and toward the end, not fun at all. It’s not a surprise to me that the youth movement flourished and the team took on a new personality after he left.

canderson said:

I think 2017 was just a mess from multiple angles that had this impact. Losing the face of the team, the Price-Eck fight, Pedey throwing his team under the bus in Baltimore, etc. all piled up. Farrell I don't think was the leader to navigate through so many potholes for whatever reason, and it just kept snowballing.

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I guess. The article is clear as mud as to what the issues were. It begs the question whether any of them are still there, e.g. a problem with Pedroia or something.

maufman said:

I hope Cora is the answer, but I’m not overly optimistic. I don’t think I’d enjoy having either Dustin Pedroia or David Price as a colleague, and the other veterans strike me as quiet guys who do their jobs and keep their heads down.

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Agree with all of this. I hope Cora is great, but also have a nagging feeling that Boston is not the place for a first-time manager to learn on the job.

Seems like a lot of hand wringing for a team that had a good year. They were clutch down the stretch and held off a fantastic team. There were some really great moments. They were money in extras. They lost in the playoffs to the eventual champions.

These really aren't signs of a clubhouse that is more turbulent than any other. I don't know what a happier clubhouse would have meant. Whatever these headbutting issues were, they didn't keep the team from playing well and often better than the sum of its parts, which is not something you associate with dysfunction. I'm not trying to make a case for Farrell to have stayed. I'm excited to see what Cora will bring. But in a year where teams were hitting the crap out of the ball, the Red Sox had no power. Sunshine, roses and cupcakes in the locker room wasn't going to produce home runs. And there was just no way that a team 27th in the league in home runs* was ever going to have a chance to win 11 games in the playoffs against the teams that were in there. Watching balls fly everywhere in the LCS games and the world series, there was just no way the Red Sox were going to keep up even with those teams. If there's a way to draw a line between the clubhouse mood and power hitting, it's a very very dotted line, I imagine.

I guess I just don't believe that clubhouse stuff had any impact at all on the Red Sox last year. At least not in any more-than-very-micro sense. That doesn't mean it couldn't have more of an impact in future years, and that's enough reason to make a change. Cora can be the greatest manager in the world, but if the 2018 Red Sox are 27th in home runs again, I'd take 93 wins again in a second, and seriously doubt they'll repeat that.

*It wasn't just home runs, of course. The stat that I look back on when I think about the 2017 playoffs and the Boston Red Sox is to look at team OPS rankings of the ten playoff teams: 1. Houston, 2. Cleveland, 3. Yankees, 4. Nationals, 5. Rockies, 6. Cubs, 7. D-backs, 8. Dodgers, 9. Twins . . . . 22. Red Sox. They really never had a chance.

DennyDoyle'sBoil said:

These really aren't signs of a clubhouse that is more turbulent than any other. I don't know what a happier clubhouse would have meant. Whatever these headbutting issues were, they didn't keep the team from playing well and often better than the sum of its parts, which is not something you associate with dysfunction.

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This is why I take all these kinds of stories with a huge grain of salt. With as ravenous as local media is for "stories" that much of the fanbase eats up like candy, any little incident that might not see the light of day in a market like Tampa or Seattle or Houston or St Louis gets blown all out of proportion and beaten to death on sports radio/TV for a week in Boston. So the Red Sox clubhouse is fractured or out of control but the same actions or behavior on the Twins or Braves probably doesn't ever hit the radar.

Red(s)HawksFan said:

This is why I take all these kinds of stories with a huge grain of salt.

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With an accompanying healthy chase of Patron and lime, I hope.

I understand this is likely FAKE NEWS from MSESPN, but I think the character of Dustin Pedroia and David Price are questionable.

Once I had JBJ in that bin, but he may have grown - and if so that is good.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Nuñez signing goes final, they'll have brought back every significant member of last year's team other than Abad, Fister, and Reed (the latter two of whom were midseason additions). Not sure how to read that as anything other than an indictment of Farrell and/or his staff.

Danny_Darwin said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Nuñez signing goes final, they'll have brought back every significant member of last year's team other than Abad, Fister, and Reed (the latter two of whom were midseason additions). Not sure how to read that as anything other than an indictment of Farrell and/or his staff.

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Or it could be read that the team won 93 games and the division, despite quite a few down years, so don't fuck with it too much(other than still trying to get the one big bat).

Do they think Cora is going to be a pushover?

Danny_Darwin said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Nuñez signing goes final, they'll have brought back every significant member of last year's team other than Abad, Fister, and Reed (the latter two of whom were midseason additions). Not sure how to read that as anything other than an indictment of Farrell and/or his staff.

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Really? If the team had finished last and they brought back all the players, that might be a bit of a slap in the face to the ex-manager. But I'm not sure how you can argue that bringing back the roster of a division winner is any kind of statement about the manager either way.

I mean, they fired him, and that's certainly an indictment of some sort. But I don't see how any of their offseason roster moves amplify (or mitigate) it.

I think a vet like Holliday would be useful. From all accounts he played a key leadership role with the Yankees before getting mono.

Oops, now JBJ is interviewed on NESN and says he enjoyed the season, the 93 wins and back to back AL East titles. He also said the type of things that happened can actually help you grow as a player. Rift in the outfield! Ah, have to expect many different kinds of reactions to what came out. No big. Looks like that NESN sports update has one more showing, starting in a few minutes. Also has a bit about Pedro having a bigger role this year with the pitchers. You go Pedro! Cora said pitching is not his strength, so it will help him as well as the pitchers.

Sampo Gida said:

I think a vet like Holliday would be useful. From all accounts he played a key leadership role with the Yankees before getting mono.

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Dude you keep bringing this up. NO!

E5 Yaz said:

Scott Lauber ESPN Staff Writer
Dustin Pedroia looked back at 2004, 2007 and 2013 Red Sox teams that had group of players in leadership role. "I've got to do a better job of getting everyone to understand that it's not just one guy," said Pedroia, who has expressed as much to Xander Bogaerts and others.


That sounds like the lack of Ortiz was felt in the clubhouse more than expected

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Maybe. Or maybe he means himself. Or maybe he means whoever someone thinks is the team leader, should be captain, or whatever. We can't be sure. But if he is trying to get across that everybody should be trying to step up and show leadership either by their effort or trying to reach out to other team members, that is a good idea. Xander might be a guy he thinks can be an example of that.

Hawk68 said:

Once I had JBJ in that bin, but he may have grown - and if so that is good.

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You made that quite clear in the other thread, yes.

It sounds like people here are taking what players are saying as confirmation of their own beliefs about the 2017 clubhouse, e.g., about l'affaire Eckersley and the sense some have that the team lacks character and accountability. But I don't think that's what they're saying. I hear them saying that the mood of the clubhouse tracked wins and losses too closely. Here's part of Mookie's comment the other day: "Through the rough times, that’s when we could have had a little more fun instead of getting down."

Danny_Darwin said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Nuñez signing goes final, they'll have brought back every significant member of last year's team other than Abad, Fister, and Reed (the latter two of whom were midseason additions). Not sure how to read that as anything other than an indictment of Farrell and/or his staff.

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How is that an indictment? It's a recognition that last year's team was pretty damn good. If last year's team had finished 82-80 and they brought back the whole team sans manager, that's an indictment. It's saying the manager was the problem. When you win 93 games and the division title, there's no big problem that needs to hang around someone's head.

If anything's an indictment of Farrell, it's simply the fact that they didn't bring him back and I'd suggest that's not so much an indictment as it is simply a matter of them thinking they can do better with someone else. It's like getting a better primary lefty reliever or strengthening the back end of the rotation.

shaggydog2000 said:

Maybe. Or maybe he means himself. Or maybe he means whoever someone thinks is the team leader, should be captain, or whatever. We can't be sure. But if he is trying to get across that everybody should be trying to step up and show leadership either by their effort or trying to reach out to other team members, that is a good idea. Xander might be a guy he thinks can be an example of that.

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I saw an attempt at an empirical study of clubhouse chemistry once (Did @EricFeczko post it?) that indicates that while clubhouses will always have factions, the real key is having guys in overlapping factions so they were integrated even while offering niches.

There was also discussion in it it about it about how language differences can play a huge role here—and Xander speaks both Spanish and English.

And if DD has plans to make a big splash with a player from the Netherlands, we’ll be all set!

Reverend said:

I saw an attempt at an empirical study of clubhouse chemistry once (Did @EricFeczko post it?) that indicates that while clubhouses will always have factions, the real key is having guys in overlapping factions so they were integrated even while offering niches.

There was also discussion in it it about it about how language differences can play a huge role here—and Xander speaks both Spanish and English.

And if DD has plans to make a big splash with a player from the Netherlands, we’ll be small set!

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He is a Knight of the Order of Orange, so that's got to impress any Aruban or Dutch players they'd want to sign. I bet he's got a medal and everything.

nvalvo said:

You made that quite clear in the other thread, yes.

It sounds like people here are taking what players are saying as confirmation of their own beliefs about the 2017 clubhouse, e.g., about l'affaire Eckersley and the sense some have that the team lacks character and accountability. But I don't think that's what they're saying. I hear them saying that the mood of the clubhouse tracked wins and losses too closely. Here's part of Mookie's comment the other day: "Through the rough times, that’s when we could have had a little more fun instead of getting down."

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Sir,
My post some time back spoke only of character, not my thoughts on the clubhouse or any other player issue.

In my profession and experience, character is one of the two essential components of leadership.

All organizations experience challenges, and regardless of profession leadership is a key to success.

Respectfully,
Hawk

Jerry’s Curl said:

Do they think Cora is going to be a pushover?

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Who is “they”? I didn’t see any allusion to Cora being weak or a pushover, nor did I see much about Farrell being too tough. It seemed more like a couple of guys throwing the jaw under the bus for, I guess, letting them press and not uniting the team.

CHB's column on this began:
"So there. It's all true. We weren't making it up last summer/fall when we told you that the first-place 2017 Red Sox were sour, unhappy, dysfunctional, and headed for a fall."

Not too childish ... The CHB also noted (and explained to Mookie) that "the team isn't generating much buzz back home".

We're in trouble right out of the gate, because we all know that the team generating the most "buzz" two days after spring training camps open automatically wins the World Series.

Red Sox in 2019!

Clearly, Nunez doesn't like having fun.

Speier, via twitter:
"Just saw Eduardo Nunez leaving JetBlue Park. He suggested no deal is final but he remains hopeful of a return to Boston after ‘a great experience’ in 2017."

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/02/17/jackie-bradley-has-learned-from-his-ups-and-downs/oPmO6hjrSJPqr6u0Kphs8O/story.html

An interesting story from the Globe and to me, insight into the mind of JBJ: "There was more disrespect this weekend when the folks at Yahoo Sports made JBJ the center fielder on their All-Overrated team. Bradley responded to the shot by retweeting the item, accompanied by an emoji of hands applauding."

JBJ showed confidence even when he was hitting at the Mendoza line for ~800 PA and all others doubted him - and he still does.

In every endeavor, the road to better begins with self. He could be one of the rebound spots for the 2018 season.

Reverend said:

I saw an attempt at an empirical study of clubhouse chemistry once (Did @EricFeczko post it?) that indicates that while clubhouses will always have factions, the real key is having guys in overlapping factions so they were integrated even while offering niches.

There was also discussion in it it about it about how language differences can play a huge role here—and Xander speaks both Spanish and English.

And if DD has plans to make a big splash with a player from the Netherlands, we’ll be all set!

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I think it was earl weaver who spoke of certain factions, saying something like, "there's always going to be players that love me players that hate me and players that don't give a shit about me. My job is to keep the guys who hate me from having too much to do with the guys who don't give a shit about me."

Hawk68 said:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/02/17/jackie-bradley-has-learned-from-his-ups-and-downs/oPmO6hjrSJPqr6u0Kphs8O/story.html

An interesting story from the Globe and to me, insight into the mind of JBJ: "There was more disrespect this weekend when the folks at Yahoo Sports made JBJ the center fielder on their All-Overrated team. Bradley responded to the shot by retweeting the item, accompanied by an emoji of hands applauding."

JBJ showed confidence even when he was hitting at the Mendoza line for ~800 PA and all others doubted him - and he still does.

In every endeavor, the road to better begins with self. He could be one of the rebound spots for the 2018 season.

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It’s almost like you never had any business disputing “the mind of JBJ” to begin with.

I remember back after the 2007 WS victory, Manny went on The Tonight Show and gushed about how Boston was the best place to live and play baseball, and how he wouldn’t trade his situation with the Sox for any other team, etc...

Offseason interviews that provide a retrospective about team chemistry are probably the worst possible predictor for how the team will function going forward.

shaggydog2000 said:

Maybe. Or maybe he means himself. Or maybe he means whoever someone thinks is the team leader, should be captain, or whatever. We can't be sure. But if he is trying to get across that everybody should be trying to step up and show leadership either by their effort or trying to reach out to other team members, that is a good idea. Xander might be a guy he thinks can be an example of that.

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I watched that whole interview, he was pretty clear that he meant he needs to do a better job as the senior player on the Red Sox of grooming the younger guys to step up and be leaders as well.

He talked about when Tek was captain, he didn’t try to just be Mr Solo Leaderguy, he would have Ortiz take up a role helping players so that when Tek retired, Papi was groomed and ready to step up, and how Papi then put Pedroia in positions where he could lead instead of doing it himself, etc. He went on to say he has thought a lot about it this offseason and he feels he needs to put guys like Mookie in spots where they can lead rather than just trying to be Captain Dictator.

chawson said:

It’s almost like you never had any business disputing “the mind of JBJ” to begin with.

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Sir,
And it is almost like you are Marxist in rejection of market forces.
Respectfully,
Hawk

Smiling Joe Hesketh said:

We kinda already knew this, right? It was heavily alluded to when Farrell was fired and Cora hired. For whatever reason the younger players weren't comfortable playing under Farrell's management style.

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Yes but unfortunately it took three years for management to figure this out.

Red(s)HawksFan said:

This is why I take all these kinds of stories with a huge grain of salt. With as ravenous as local media is for "stories" that much of the fanbase eats up like candy, any little incident that might not see the light of day in a market like Tampa or Seattle or Houston or St Louis gets blown all out of proportion and beaten to death on sports radio/TV for a week in Boston. So the Red Sox clubhouse is fractured or out of control but the same actions or behavior on the Twins or Braves probably doesn't ever hit the radar.

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I feel like what is never really acknowledged, is that it's all of this negativity that erodes our appreciation of the team and the game. It's like the complaining about length of games. Is it a problem? Sure, but it's one that is more of an issue for us than anything. The local sports media plays on it like it always has, but we have so much access to the negativity, that we get sucked into it. Even when we enjoy something, it's with an aggressive edge that's a watered down version of politics.

This isn't a direct knock at anyone, it's just what I think about when I read stuff like this, or hear Mutt and Bradford arguing about the difference between whether David Price is speaking "on behalf of the team or himself". The sad thing is, I listen to it anytime I'm in the car.