SBLII: A Gronking to Remember

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Captaincoop

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Not all concussions are treated equally. Bergeron has had a couple after that bad one where he's only been out for a couple games. It's hard to predict.
There is very little anyone knows about the proper treatment of concussions.

It has a lot to do with the patient's history of prior concussions, and we don't really have that information here. This is the Super Bowl and the NFL, so he will probably be cleared and play in the game ( I would bet on that happening), but that doesn't mean he's not at risk of a serious problem down the road when he inevitably gets cracked in the head again.

The NFL needs to get serious about these things. The fact that you can lay that intentional helmet-to-helmet hit on a guy, and the price is 15 yards...that's a HUGE part of the problem. That needs to be an ejection.
 

Captaincoop

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What is Gronk's concussion history?
Realistically, anyone who has played tight end in the NFL for 7-8 years has to have had numerous concussions. Think about how many times he's either taken a hit to the head or a hard hit to the back or chest that caused his brain to rattle in his head.

He'll play in the SB, but he's at risk moving forward for sure.
 

Leather

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If you're Gronk...

You're played 8 seasons. You've earned, what, $40 Million in salary (that you've reportedly socked away)? This is your 4th Super Bowl team, with at least 2 wins in the bag.

People like you, you can probably get a job with ESPN in some capacity. You have a great, supportive, family to spend time with.

Is this a guy that's going to play until his shoulders fall off or is he going to say "I have other things to do" and unexpectedly retire?

More than even other players, it just seems like he goes through the ringer every season.
 

Red Right Ankle

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The thing that ticks me off about the Sherman comment, is his version of the only way "to do his job" implies a DB has a right to actually tackle and stop a guy 5" taller and 60lbs heavier. That's not the case. Gronk has a huge advantage, the DB has the right within the rules to do whatever he can legally to bring Gronk down. But if the size advantage makes that nearly impossible, it doesn't give you the right to go helmet to helmet and launch stating "it's the only way to bring him down". You have the right to hit him clean, that's it, and if Gronk is so big its nearly impossible without another player showing up, then so be it. But "doing his job" doesn't mean you get to break the rules because its an impossible task with a clean hit. You have the right to try and bring him down within the rules.
Echo that this is a great point. People would not be ok if a receiver said, "That Sherman's reaction time is too good, so the only way to stop him from covering you is to poke him in the eye, so it's ok," or "That Von Miller is too quick, the only way a lineman can stop him is to leg whip him, so it's ok."
 

Koufax

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Those are two separate question. If I'm Gronk, the Super Bowl is my last game.

Gronk being Gronk, he'll play until he has his next back injury.
 

Red Right Ankle

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If you're Gronk...

You're played 8 seasons. You've earned, what, $40 Million in salary (that you've reportedly socked away)? This is your 4th Super Bowl team, with at least 2 wins in the bag.

People like you, you can probably get a job with ESPN in some capacity. You have a great, supportive, family to spend time with.

Is this a guy that's going to play until his shoulders fall off or is he going to say "I have other things to do" and unexpectedly retire?

More than even other players, it just seems like he goes through the ringer every season.
If I'm Gronk, yeah, I probably retire with my millions. But actual Gronk seems to love football, so he'll probably play until he gets cut for ineffectiveness or an injury ends his career.
 

Marciano490

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If Gronk had that attitude, he wouldn't have gotten to where he got to. Same with almost any other professional athlete. It might make an interesting thread, but how many players walked away from contact sports in their primes or with a bunch left in the tank? The only two I can think of are Warner and Hagler. Maybe Strahan had another year or two left. And Hagler only retired because Sugar Ray wouldn't give him a rematch and he had nobody left to fight.
 

loshjott

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He doesn't have a realistic chance of catching Gates or Gonzalez for the career tight end receptions, yards, or TD records. He's a Hall of Famer now. He may go before Brady.
 

loshjott

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If Gronk had that attitude, he wouldn't have gotten to where he got to. Same with almost any other professional athlete. It might make an interesting thread, but how many players walked away from contact sports in their primes or with a bunch left in the tank? The only two I can think of are Warner and Hagler. Maybe Strahan had another year or two left. And Hagler only retired because Sugar Ray wouldn't give him a rematch and he had nobody left to fight.
Jim Brown.
 

RIrooter09

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If Gronk had that attitude, he wouldn't have gotten to where he got to. Same with almost any other professional athlete. It might make an interesting thread, but how many players walked away from contact sports in their primes or with a bunch left in the tank? The only two I can think of are Warner and Hagler. Maybe Strahan had another year or two left. And Hagler only retired because Sugar Ray wouldn't give him a rematch and he had nobody left to fight.
Barry Sanders and Megatron.
 

johnmd20

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If I'm Gronk, yeah, I probably retire with my millions. But actual Gronk seems to love football, so he'll probably play until he gets cut for ineffectiveness or an injury ends his career.
It probably doesn't matter if he's got a lot of money in the bank, because if he plays 2 more seasons, it's another 20 million to him. It must be hard to turn that down, especially b/c he's in his prime.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Echo that this is a great point. People would not be ok if a receiver said, "That Sherman's reaction time is too good, so the only way to stop him from covering you is to poke him in the eye, so it's ok," or "That Von Miller is too quick, the only way a lineman can stop him is to leg whip him, so it's ok."
I'd like to see (as others have mentioned) ejections for helmet to helmet hits. I'm surprised with the focus on CTE that it isn't already in place. When you consider the thug mentality that some teams still have with this issue (Steelers, Bengals, etc) something needs to be done to make it more severe than a 15 yard penalty. Especially if the offensive player is out for a game or more.
 

Ed Hillel

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If Gronk had that attitude, he wouldn't have gotten to where he got to. Same with almost any other professional athlete. It might make an interesting thread, but how many players walked away from contact sports in their primes or with a bunch left in the tank? The only two I can think of are Warner and Hagler. Maybe Strahan had another year or two left. And Hagler only retired because Sugar Ray wouldn't give him a rematch and he had nobody left to fight.
Gronk had a 4 million dollar insurance policy he could have cashed from his back injury in college had he decided to never play in the NFL. He could have breezed through life on that and instead chose to play in the NFL, where he started on a modest 2nd round contract. Gronk plays because he loves the game more than anything and I have a hard time believing he’s done by choice for the next couple years at least.
 

Boston Brawler

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He doesn't have a realistic chance of catching Gates or Gonzalez for the career tight end receptions, yards, or TD records. He's a Hall of Famer now. He may go before Brady.
I agree on receptions and yards, but he's got a shot at TDs (depending on how much longer Gates plays). He could realistically catch Gonzalez in three seasons.
 

Marciano490

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It's partly love of the game, but it's also an attitude you have to have - a dumb one maybe - but that "it can't happen to me" attitude. If you play or train with fear, you can't be great at your sport. Every boxing gym has a bunch of punchy fighters hanging around, but up and comers can't train or fight thinking that'll be them some day. Same with Gronk; as many times as he's been injured I bet he feels as invincible as ever, and that's part of the reason he'll keep playing.

Though, at times he does seem a bit smarter about not trying to get an extra half yard with 3 guys on him.
 

Marciano490

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Ex-49er Chris Borland is probably the one is name.

I just can't imagine Gronk not playing in the SB if cleared to play.
Borland's a good one. There was a lineman, too, a few years back. I can't remember his name, but I remember reading a long feature about him and being struck in part by how much weight he shed immediately after retiring and how detailed he was about how unwell and unhealthy he felt being so bulked up.
 

lexrageorge

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If Gronk is going to retire, it will be after the Super Bowl. There is no chance he misses the Super Bowl if he's cleared.

There is certainly the possibility he calls it a career this offseason, however. The injuries are starting to mount.
 

kenneycb

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Borland's a good one. There was a lineman, too, a few years back. I can't remember his name, but I remember reading a long feature about him and being struck in part by how much weight he shed immediately after retiring and how detailed he was about how unwell and unhealthy he felt being so bulked up.
My guess is either Jeff Saturday or Nick Hardwick.
 

Van Everyman

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If Gronk is going to retire, it will be after the Super Bowl. There is no chance he misses the Super Bowl if he's cleared.

There is certainly the possibility he calls it a career this offseason, however. The injuries are starting to mount.
I know we're just discussing this -- but this all feels a bit like another retread of last season's dramatic "Will Gronk Be the Same Player?" discussion following his back surgery and the picture of him using the walker ... followed by him playing at about as a high a level as he's ever played for a full season (minus the suspension).

I get he's been hurt a lot. And I get that concussions are scary. But until we get any indication whatsoever that he's contemplating otherwise, can we please pump the brakes on the Gronk retirement talk?
 

reggiecleveland

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It's partly love of the game, but it's also an attitude you have to have - a dumb one maybe - but that "it can't happen to me" attitude. If you play or train with fear, you can't be great at your sport. Every boxing gym has a bunch of punchy fighters hanging around, but up and comers can't train or fight thinking that'll be them some day. Same with Gronk; as many times as he's been injured I bet he feels as invincible as ever, and that's part of the reason he'll keep playing.

Though, at times he does seem a bit smarter about not trying to get an extra half yard with 3 guys on him.
Exactly.
The competitors mindset is not logical but it probably is essential.
It is the same as asking why the guy with 100 million still works 14 hours a day. It is who he is.
We are celebrating the exploits of a guy who by all logical reason should not be playing anymore. He thinks he will be the best qb 5 more years.

Guys will walk away, but it will never be easy.
 

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If Gronk had that attitude, he wouldn't have gotten to where he got to. Same with almost any other professional athlete. It might make an interesting thread, but how many players walked away from contact sports in their primes or with a bunch left in the tank? The only two I can think of are Warner and Hagler. Maybe Strahan had another year or two left. And Hagler only retired because Sugar Ray wouldn't give him a rematch and he had nobody left to fight.
In addition to all the ones already mentioned, Robert Smith of the Vikings at the end of the season where he was a second team All-Pro and Pro Bowler. Also Tiki Barber who retired after 3 straight Pro Bowl seasons. Seems we've pretty easily come up with a dozen athletes that have done it, and if anything it seems to be an increasing trend in the NFL.
 

Koufax

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Ricky WIlliams (the 2004 edition)
Elvis Presley (gave up the music biz for movies)
 

Sportsbstn

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Gronk seems to genuinely love the game, I highly doubt there any chance he retires after this season. He should be cleared to go for the super bowl, but it’s always better to be cautious and take it slow.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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If Gronk had that attitude, he wouldn't have gotten to where he got to. Same with almost any other professional athlete. It might make an interesting thread, but how many players walked away from contact sports in their primes or with a bunch left in the tank? The only two I can think of are Warner and Hagler. Maybe Strahan had another year or two left. And Hagler only retired because Sugar Ray wouldn't give him a rematch and he had nobody left to fight.
Robert Smith was the first one that I remember.
 

DJnVa

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Gronk seems to genuinely love the game, I highly doubt there any chance he retires after this season. He should be cleared to go for the super bowl, but it’s always better to be cautious and take it slow.
Yeah, that's crazy talk. I imagine the earliest it would happen, outside a bad injury, is when Brady leaves.

So, 8 more years or so.
 

streeter88

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In the interests of understanding what Gronk is likely going through -- both to recover from his concussion / GET WELL and to get back to the team -- I came across the NFL's own Play Smart Play Safe campaign is which is very thorough and detailed. https://www.playsmartplaysafe.com/focus-on-safety/protecting-players/nfl-return-to-participation-protocol/. As most will remember from what Brock Holt went through last season, the symptoms can include
  • Headache;
  • Dizziness;
  • Balance or coordination difficulties;
  • Nausea;
  • Amnesia, both anterograde and retrograde;
  • Cognitive slowness;
  • Light/sound sensitivity;
  • Disorientation;
  • Visual disturbance
  • Tinnitus.
... so concussions can be pretty awful, and wouldn't wish that on anyone - ugh.

The entire Return to Practice Protocol is below (hence the very long post) and is administered by the Team Physician in consultation with the Independent Neurological Consultant, but I have tried to summarise it as follows:
  1. Rest and Recovery
  2. Light Aerobic Exercise which can be in tandem with neuro cognitive testing to measure whether the player has returned to baseline status (i.e., pre-concussion)
  3. Aerobic Exercise and Non-Contact Strength Training - again can be in tandem with testing - retesting can happen typically every 2 days until no symptoms are displayed -- need to be able to exercise strenuously without symptoms to go to Step 4 - or "Football Specific Activities". According to the below, Steps 2 and 3 are similar and often a continuation
  4. Football Specific Activities - cardiovascular conditioning, strength and balance training and participate in non-contact football activities such as throwing, catching, running and other position-specific activities (but still non-contact)
  5. Full Football Activity / Clearance - return to full team practices including full football activity (i.e., contact).
    Once Step 5 is satisfactorily completed (ie with no return of concussion symptoms), the team physician can recommend the player return to game activity in consultation with the Independent Neurological Consultant, who also has to examine the player and clear him for game activity.
Note: If a player exhibits reoccurring signs of the concussion during any point in the process, they return to the prior step.​

The Return-To-Participation Protocol (per NFL / NFLPA)
Step One: Rest and Recovery

This is the physical and relative cognitive rest step. The player-patient is prescribed rest, limiting or, if necessary, avoiding activities (both physical and cognitive) which increase or aggravate symptoms until his signs and symptoms and neurologic examination, including cognitive and balance tests, return to baseline status. During this step, the player-patient may engage in limited stretching and balance activity as tolerated at the discretion of the medical staff. Should additional issues present, the team physician should consider external consultation or additional diagnostic examinations.

Once the player-patient is at his baseline level of signs and symptoms and neurological examination, he may be cleared to proceed to the next step.

Neurocognitive testing is administered to assess the player-patient’s level of cognitive function and identify any acute / subacute deficits that would affect his ability to resume normal activities. Neurocognitive testing can be introduced any time after completing Step One, or during Steps Two or Three, as long as it is completed prior to the initiation of contact activities. The timing of neurocognitive testing is up to the team physician with consultation from the team’s neuropsychology consultant. All neurocognitive tests are to be interpreted by the team’s neuropsychology consultant, with the results communicated to the team physician.

Step Two: Light Aerobic Exercise

Step Two involves the initiation of a graduated exercise program. Under the direct oversight of the team’s medical staff, the player-patient should begin graduated cardiovascular exercise (e.g., stationary bicycle, treadmill) and may also engage in dynamic stretching and balance training. The duration and intensity of all activity may be gradually increased so long as the player-patient remains at baseline while performing the activity and for a reasonable period thereafter. If there is recurrence of signs or symptoms the activity should be discontinued. He may attend regular team meetings and engage in film study.

If neurocognitive testing was not administered during Step One, it should be administered during Step Two or Three. If a player-patient’s initial neurocognitive testing is not interpreted as back to baseline by the consulting team neuropsychologist, the tests will be repeated at a time interval agreed upon by the team physician and consulting team neuropsychologist (typically 48 hours). Additionally, a comprehensive evaluation of potential non-injury related causes of a noted neuropsychological decrement should be performed by the team physician. An athlete may be allowed to participate in non-contact activities even if their neurocognitive testing is interpreted as abnormal. The player-patient should not proceed to contact activities until their neurocognitive testing is interpreted as having returned to their baseline level by the consulting team neuropsychologist or, if a decrement persists, until the team physician has determined that this is not due to the concussion. The need and time interval for additional testing will be determined by the team physician, in consultation with the team’s neuropsychology consultant, based on the clinical status of the player-patient.

Once the player-patient has demonstrated his ability to engage in cardiovascular exercise without recurrence of signs or symptoms, he may proceed to the next step.

Step Three: Continued Aerobic Exercise & Introduction of Strength Training

The player-patient continues with supervised cardiovascular exercises that are increased and may mimic sport specific activities, and supervised strength training is introduced. Some may consider this step as a continuation of Step Two. If neurocognitive testing was not administered after Step One, or during Step Two, it should be administered during Step Three. If a player-patient’s initial neurocognitive testing is not interpreted as back to baseline by the consulting team neuropsychologist, the tests will be repeated at a time interval agreed upon by the team physician and consulting team neuropsychologist (typically 48 hours). A player-patient may be allowed to participate in non-contact activities even if his neurocognitive testing is interpreted as abnormal. The player-patient should not proceed to contact activities until their neurocognitive testing is interpreted as back to their baseline level by the consulting team neuropsychologist or, if a decrement is still present, until the team physician has determined a non-concussion related cause. The determination of when to proceed with contact activities is ultimately made by the team physician.

Once the player-patient has demonstrated his ability to engage in cardiovascular exercise and supervised strength training without recurrence of signs or symptoms, he may proceed to the next step.

Step Four: Football Specific Activities

The player-patient may continue cardiovascular conditioning, strength and balance training and participate in non-contact football activities such as throwing, catching, running and other position-specific activities. All activities at this step remain non-contact. (e.g., no contact with other players or objects, such as tackling dummies or sleds).

If the player-patient is able to tolerate all football specific activity without a recurrence of signs or symptoms of concussion and his neurocognitive testing has returned to baseline, he may be moved to the next step in the sequence.

Step Five: Full Football Activity/Clearance

After the player-patient has established his ability to participate in non-contact football activity including team meetings, conditioning and non-contact practice without recurrence of signs and symptoms and his neurocognitive testing is back to baseline, the team physician may clear him for full football activity involving contact. Once cleared by the team physician, the player-patient may participate in all aspects of practice. If the player-patient tolerates full participation practice and contact without signs or symptoms and the team physician concludes that the player-patient’s concussion has resolved, he may clear the player-patient to return to full participation. Upon clearance by the team physician, the player must be examined by the INC assigned to his Club. The INC must be provided a copy of all relevant reports and tests, including the player-patient’s neurocognitive tests and interpretations. If the INC confirms the team physician’s conclusion that the player-patient’s concussion has resolved, the player-patient is considered cleared and may participate in his Club’s next game or practice.

If a player exhibits reoccurring signs of the concussion during any point in the process, they return to the prior step.
 

Reverend

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Yeah, that's crazy talk. I imagine the earliest it would happen, outside a bad injury, is when Brady leaves.

So, 8 more years or so.
You don’t think he adopted the TB12 lifestyle in season in preparation for a healthy retirement?
 

singaporesoxfan

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https://www.si.com/2014/07/29/jordan-gross-weight-retirement-panthers

Jordan Gross. Turns out from googling that like 1,000 NFL linemen have dropped a ton of weight immediately after retiring, but Gross was the one I was thinking of who still had some good years left.
It’s so common that it’s practically a running joke in the ex NFL player community, if I recall what Ross Tucker said. Apparently linemen all drop weight and WRs all gain weight because they’re no longer doing insane amounts of exercise and so when they have team reunions the body sizes of teammates are much more even.
 

Marciano490

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It’s so common that it’s practically a running joke in the ex NFL player community, if I recall what Ross Tucker said. Apparently linemen all drop weight and WRs all gain weight because they’re no longer doing insane amounts of exercise and so when they have team reunions the body sizes of teammates are much more even.
When I first started boxing, heavyweights were still mostly 6'3 and under and I graduate high school around 205, so I decided to go up in weight and made it to like 245-250 and it's just such a lifestyle change carrying that much weight, constantly sweating, joints aching, everything more arduous. I imagine resetting back to your body's natural weight is something they almost all look forward to. Same with bodybuilders; it's funny seeing Dorian Yates and Arnold and Ronnie Coleman nowadays - still giants but 100 pounds lighter than when they competed.
 

DJnVa

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Florio weighs in on the hit.

He questions if the hit was indeed intentional. He feels that there was a pretty big target area to go for and instead Church went for the head.

Ninkovich was on the radio yesterday and said he didn't think it was intentional because Church turned his head slightly and hit Gronk with the side of his helmet, which is where you don't want the contact.
 

TheoShmeo

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Ninkovich was on the radio yesterday and said he didn't think it was intentional because Church turned his head slightly and hit Gronk with the side of his helmet, which is where you don't want the contact.
Nink also pointed out how bang bang the play was and that Church could have easily concussed himself, something he would naturally want to avoid.

I think the speed of the play aspect is critical. Presuming bad intent presumes more time to plan than Church really had.
 

jablo1312

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We got 2 weeks to kill, so forgive me for bringing this up, but BetDSI (a mediocre online sportsbook) posted the following prop:

"Will Robert Gronkowski be medically cleared to play in Super Bowl LII:

Yes: -150
No: +`120

This would indicate that he's a slight favorite to play in the game. I was surprised that Yes was so low, actually. And to answer the obvious- no one in the Gronk family or Pats can get rich betting on this based on inside information b/c the maximum amount you're allowed to wager is $100.
 

Leather

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We got 2 weeks to kill, so forgive me for bringing this up, but BetDSI (a mediocre online sportsbook) posted the following prop:

"Will Robert Gronkowski be medically cleared to play in Super Bowl LII:

Yes: -150
No: +`120

This would indicate that he's a slight favorite to play in the game. I was surprised that Yes was so low, actually. And to answer the obvious- no one in the Gronk family or Pats can get rich betting on this based on inside information b/c the maximum amount you're allowed to wager is $100.
All it indicates is that they don't really know anything, but assume (probably using the same logic we do here) that he'll play because it's the Super Bowl.
 
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