11/18 Weekend - North London Derby

Time to Mo Vaughn

RIP Dernell
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Ozil, Sanchez and Lacazette all in the starting lineup for, I believe, only the second time this season in a premier league game.
 

coremiller

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Choppy game so far. Both sides pressing high and hard. That's normal for Spurs but I'm surprised how high Arsenal are pressing.
 

coremiller

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Arsenal have certainly been the better side. I don't think they've been two goals better.

A lot of weak performances from Spurs. Dier has been weak. Sissoko has been a black hole. Arsenal are repeatedly getting into the space behind Vertonghen and Davies much too easily.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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First goal was phantom foul and clear offside. Second goal... Shit. Spurs need to create.
Agree on the foul, but clear offsides? Like 1/10th of his body was offsides on a frozen frame. There's no way a human could judge that while keeping the ball in his view well enough to know when it's kicked. You're literally asking linesmans to just guess whether something is offside.
 

teddykgb

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I'm so worried about Leicester today. Feels like City just play into Leicesters tactics. Probably the most worried I've been all season
 

candylandriots

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And the ref gives an absolutely inexcusable penalty call to make it 1-1. Niasse wasn’t even touched. If anything it should have been a card on Niasse.
 

coremiller

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Two really superb goals from City. They are the best premier league side I can remember seeing.
 

candylandriots

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This goddamn ref is making up for every bit of bad luck that Niasse has experienced. He should be out with a second yellow now (and should be a third for simulation on the penalty).
 

candylandriots

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Benteke basically 1-1 against Pickford and totally shanks it. Palace have like 75% possession in the 2nd half, but haven’t scored again.
 

Cellar-Door

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It's amusing to me that the lone Sunday match is West Ham v Watford. I mean even when it was scheduled it wouldn't look like a good match.
 

swiftaw

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It's amusing to me that the lone Sunday match is West Ham v Watford. I mean even when it was scheduled it wouldn't look like a good match.
They try not to have champions league teams playing on the Sunday before, so that eliminates lots of good matches from consideration.
 

fletcherpost

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It's amusing to me that the lone Sunday match is West Ham v Watford. I mean even when it was scheduled it wouldn't look like a good match.
When i saw it was today's game i said to my old boy, that should be a good game, but that's cos of the soap opera that is the BPL. I was looking forward to seeing what Moyes could do with West Ham, and Watford need a win.

Not a bad match actually. West Ham looked a little toothless and lost, but keen, but no leaders on the pitch. Watford knock the ball about quite well and are easy on the eye. I'm sure Moyes will hit his targets for the season, 17th looks well within the Irons grasp.
 

Cellar-Door

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When i saw it was today's game i said to my old boy, that should be a good game, but that's cos of the soap opera that is the BPL. I was looking forward to seeing what Moyes could do with West Ham, and Watford need a win.

Not a bad match actually. West Ham looked a little toothless and lost, but keen, but no leaders on the pitch. Watford knock the ball about quite well and are easy on the eye. I'm sure Moyes will hit his targets for the season, 17th looks well within the Irons grasp.
Had 4 clear-cut chances w/o the 3 best attackers in the squad, and the 2nd goal for WAT was a clear handball.
On the other hand.... we have no pace, especially in MF and at RB. Zabaleta just doesn't have the pace for this level, and we have nobody who can move the ball in MF (and Noble also has no legs left). Brutal upcoming schedule, could see us going down. Need to shell out the money for a DM, a CM and a RB in the window, but no chance that happens.
 

fletcherpost

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Had 4 clear-cut chances w/o the 3 best attackers in the squad, and the 2nd goal for WAT was a clear handball.
On the other hand.... we have no pace, especially in MF and at RB. Zabaleta just doesn't have the pace for this level, and we have nobody who can move the ball in MF (and Noble also has no legs left). Brutal upcoming schedule, could see us going down. Need to shell out the money for a DM, a CM and a RB in the window, but no chance that happens.
I think there will be some outgoings in the Jan window. So you'd think if he offloads some players and gets some cash from the board he can do some business in the market. I can't imagine Moyes took the job without some kind of agreement regarding the January transfer window. On a positive note. Moyes' Everton teams tended to finished the season strongly this was partly down to fitness...he's big on that and there is a consensus in pundit land that West Ham players ain't too fit. So if he can get em well drilled and picking up some points pre Xmas I expect them to have a decent second half of the season. I haven't checked the injury situation so I dunno how many first team players you have out at the moment.

I dunno, i think Moyes might be able to do a the job he's being paid for...17th was a joke.
 

PedroSpecialK

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Lee Mason just shat all over himself... Glenn Murray gets pulled down by Shawcross for a clear penalty and hugs the ball as he hits the ground.

Mason awards a corner, then changes it to a goal kick - but the ball never went out, so it's either a penalty or a handball on Murray.

edit: Sounds like he may have given a handball in the end, but that was a dreadful call nonetheless - and they're continuing to come into the final minutes of the half

edit 2: Terrific run by Davy Pröpper to set up Pascal Groß for the equalizer

edit 3: and now Kurt Zouma puts Stoke back up prior to halftime off a Liverpudlian defensive effort on a corner
 
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SocrManiac

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This goddamn ref is making up for every bit of bad luck that Niasse has experienced. He should be out with a second yellow now (and should be a third for simulation on the penalty).
Well, looks like he's going to sit:
"FA: Everton’s Oumar Niasse charged for ‘Successful Deception of a Match Official’ following Saturday’s Crystal Palace game."

Video of the incident:
 

candylandriots

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Well, looks like he's going to sit:
"FA: Everton’s Oumar Niasse charged for ‘Successful Deception of a Match Official’ following Saturday’s Crystal Palace game."

Video of the incident:
I'm glad that he (maybe) will be penalized, but unfortunately that doesn't do a ton of good for the team that suffered from it. I guess it's better than nothing to at least hopefully discourage such behavior. After seeing where the ref was for the call though, I do kind of see how he called the penalty.

I knew that there were a ton of fouls in that game, but I hadn't realized quite how many. 26 fouls by Everton, but only three cards. It's too bad that there isn't some kind of persistent team fouling yellow to hand out. What do people who know more about soccer than I do think of that concept?
 

SocrManiac

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Agreed- Palace lost two points as a result. Those can't be recovered.

If you penalize persistent fouling you may have to disband CONCACAF. I think the better solution is to be consistent with discipline. Too many referees suck at this- they're lenient to start or hesitant to brand cards early. Control is lost and things devolve.
 

wonderland

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Agreed- Palace lost two points as a result. Those can't be recovered.

If you penalize persistent fouling you may have to disband CONCACAF. I think the better solution is to be consistent with discipline. Too many referees suck at this- they're lenient to start or hesitant to brand cards early. Control is lost and things devolve.
It was a bad call but disagree that CP lost two points as a result of it. The call happened in the sixth minute not the 90th. Who knows how the match plays out if nothing is given.
 

SocrManiac

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Officially banned:
Honestly, I wish the sentence were even more harsh. The circumstances that allow a ban are so narrow that we won't see enough players missing time.
 

candylandriots

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Officially banned:
Honestly, I wish the sentence were even more harsh. The circumstances that allow a ban are so narrow that we won't see enough players missing time.
Yeah, I think that the calculus is still in favor of diving. Maybe there's a 1:10 chance you get caught at the time, and if you do get "indicted" (for lack of a better term), you still have to go through the panel. Even with that, ask Everton whether they want a point or to lose Niasse for two games and I think they take the point.
 

OCST

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Yeah, I think that the calculus is still in favor of diving. Maybe there's a 1:10 chance you get caught at the time, and if you do get "indicted" (for lack of a better term), you still have to go through the panel. Even with that, ask Everton whether they want a point or to lose Niasse for two games and I think they take the point.
eh. I'm an Everton fan as you know and the ban is worse. But that's not what bothers me.

A couple more of these and the deterrent effect will be real - moreso than, say, the suspension for cumulative yellows, which does not affect behavior as far as I can tell.

I can't argue against the finding that it was a dive but you're also talking about a play where the ref not only didn't book Niasse for simulation, he awarded the penalty. I don't want it to become like NFL replay review where the second-guessing of play on the field takes over the game. Every play in the NFL is open to endless relitigation both during and after the game and it is squeezing the fun out of watching the live game. I understand the need to discourage diving and I endorse the idea of the panel in principle. It's just that "what's the panel going to do about that one" followed by endless replays, repeat for 2-3x every game probably, is going to get old very quickly.
 

OCST

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Another thing- the offense is named "Successful Deception of a Match Official" http://www.thefa.com/news/2017/nov/22/everton-oumar-niasse-suspended-for-two-games-after-appeal-221117

It's not a good look to say that match officials are so easily deceived. It calls into question the legitimacy of the whole officiating scheme.

One of the barriers that American fans new to the game have to overcome is the idea that there's only one official running around on a huge pitch trying to keep track of everything (yes, I know that the linesmen help), whereas in American football you have a small army of officials. As I watched more games and got a feel for the rhythm, it started to make sense that having one guy dictating everything enabled the game to have a certain flow and shape, as he informed players of what would fly and what wouldn't - the conversations with players who came close to booking but were not booked are a good example. That kind of judgment is necessarily reposed in one guy and not in a committee. Admitting that an official can be deceived - even if that's what happened - and opening up a missed dive to endless rounds of video review just completely cuts the legs out from the whole scheme. If the official can be so easily deceived - what are we doing here?

Maybe it's just semantics, but the name of the offense takes the onus away from the player and puts it on the official, who presumably has the training and judgment not to be deceived, since there are 22 guys on the pitch trying to deceive him at every turn on matters large and small. If you call it "simulation," you're putting the onus on the player doing the simulating. By saying that the official was successfully decieved, then it begs the question of WTF.
 

SocrManiac

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At the lower levels in the US, there are two equal refs that run on the field. Their paths are similar to the assistants. This leads to a massive imbalance half to half- you end up essentially having different officiating in each half as the responsibility will shift from your offensive end to your defensive end. This has significant implications for discipline and consistency. I'd imagine throwing additional refs at the problem at the professional levels would have a similar effect.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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At the lower levels in the US, there are two equal refs that run on the field. Their paths are similar to the assistants. This leads to a massive imbalance half to half- you end up essentially having different officiating in each half as the responsibility will shift from your offensive end to your defensive end. This has significant implications for discipline and consistency. I'd imagine throwing additional refs at the problem at the professional levels would have a similar effect.
That was one of the issues the NHL encountered when they went to two referees. The complaint was that a single ref system could set the tone for the game - the players could get a feel for what constitutes a foul.

But one could argue it has worked out OK - with the back ref primarily watching for penalties off the puck/ball. It would probably lead to more generic standards being applied, which I suppose is a good thing.