Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd

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SoxinSeattle

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Jesus Christ. I am stunned that Danny got fleeced on two different trades this off season. He was better off just letting IT walk next summer and keeping the BRK pick.

If I'm Hayward, I'm seriously regretting my decision to sign with Boston.
I just reread this and realized you're serious. Holy. Shit. Take a deep breath. The Brooklyn pick is probably not the next MJ.
 

gedman211

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Do people think that the Brooklyn pick is going to be the next Kyrie? this is ludicrous. It's probably going to be between 4-8. You're not getting Kyrie at 4-8. And you're not signing a 30 year old 5 foot 9 point guard for 6 years at max salary. Danny had to take this deal. Even if Cleveland beats us this year(slight greater than 50-50 odds, but certainly no lock), Lebron is gone next year. The East is ours from 2018-2020. We're a KD knee injury or Steph ankle away from 3 straight rings.
 

luckiestman

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Right now, I am seeing odds between +175 and +240 for the Celtics to win the EC (-160 to -140 for the Cavs). Many books seem to have temporarily taken NBA futures down after this trade.

What am I missing here? this looks like could bet a grand on the Cs and 1400 on the Cavs. Cavs win I'm even, Cs win I'm +1000 (assuming I get the plus 240)

Is there really a third team that should stop me from making that bet?
 

E5 Yaz

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So, basically, people think trading the Brooklyn pick was as bad a move as trading Yoan (.189) Moncada for Chris Sale and TJS Espinoza for Pomeranz?
 

gedman211

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So, basically, people think trading the Brooklyn pick was as bad a move as trading Yoan (.189) Moncada for Chris Sale and TJS Espinoza for Pomeranz?
did they have SOSH in '97?:
"sure he won the CY, but Montreal is a pitchers' park...and the Expos play in a weak division..have you seen Pavano's curveball?...duquette is a moron..."
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Took a break for a while at work from this thread after the news broke and after catching up on the last six or seven pages (or the six or seven previous to the last couple, my eyes started to bleed) I've come around a bit after reading the comments, having put it out of my head for a bit. I initially thought 'huge overpay'. After reading reactions - in both ways - I've come around to being perfectly content with this deal. Some random thoughts:

- I'll start by saying I don't watch the Celtics on a nightly basis, so I don't have the personal love for IT that some here might. But I definitely watched more last year than I had since PP/KG got shipped out, they were a fun team and I got sucked in more than usual for a team I knew had no shot. That being said, as charasmatic and fun as IT was it was easy to see he was not a piece to build around and when the playoffs came and he got the shit beat out of him again, I think that was made clear. He's not the alpha on a championship team. Add in the injury and I had no desire to see them extend him. So one season of IT, with a possible hip impairment, in a season they aren't winning a title means not a whole lot to me. Were I more of a fan I could see the attachment, but it's not there for me.
- I'm by no means an alaytical nba guy, but Kyrie strikes me as a guy that could easily improve. For one, when he finally had a team around him, he had the biggest alpha in the league calling the shots, all of them, transactions, who got the ball, etc. Theres all the talk of 'he couldn't play with Lebron...he wanted out of that?' Has anyone ever considered it might suck to play with lebron? It might be grating at some point. I'm not gonna knock him for that. Further, has he ever really had a decent coach? I think saying things like 'he is what he is' is foolish. The only decent coach he's had, while also having talent around him, was Blatt and that lasted what, half a season? There's no reason to think Stevens can't make him a better player (or that IT won't regress without* Stevens, even if fully healthy). IT was nothing without Stevens. Kyrie is already top 25. As people noted, Kyrie has the ability to play D, it's getting him to buy in. Brad has a better chance than Tyron Lue of doing that.
- people have noted that 'playoff' Kyrie is a different beast. That's a bad thing? That's the NBA now. Playoffs. They have their top 3 seed ticket to the dance, if he doesn't turn it on until the playoffs start, fine by me. We sit on the BBTL forum and talk about putting Gronk in bubble wrap until playoffs, what's the difference? If he takes the leap when it matters most, that's all I give a shit about. I watched the Finals in 16 for the first time in a while that the Cs weren't involved and he was a freaking beast. I want that guy on my team. Meanwhile, by Finals time, IT is going to be banged up and here's no way around it.
- other assets. Crowder was redundant. He's a good player but his biggest value was his contract, imo. Heyward/Brown/Tatum can fill the void and Crowders minutes would be reduced. Zizic was enticing and honestly the biggest issue I had was they need a big, if for nothing than minutes. Zizic was their bench big, next year's draft was top heavy in bigs and they essentially just traded two in one move. I didn't like that a lot but I see why DA did it. They weren't backing up the Brinks truck end of year and then who's the next piece? Pulling Kyrie out and keeping him in the East offers some control and furthers Lebron to the West end of year.

End of day I see this as a slight overpay, necessitated by making such a deal with your only conference rival and fascilitated by the amount of assets you've accumulated. But it's far better long term, both roster and salary cap fit than standing pat. If they can get a couple ring chasers to fill the bench it would be nice but that train likely already left the station this late and they aren't beating GS either way.
 

djbayko

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What am I missing here? this looks like could bet a grand on the Cs and 1400 on the Cavs. Cavs win I'm even, Cs win I'm +1000 (assuming I get the plus 240)

Is there really a third team that should stop me from making that bet?
Or bet 33.33% on the Celts and 66.67% on the Cavs for a "guaranteed" return of 13.33%. I obviously like yours better because of the home team angle.

Just have to weigh that against risks (Lebron injury? Celts chemistry issues leading to early exit?) and tying up funds from other investment opportunities.

Source: http://www.winnergambling.com/sports-betting-bingo/surebet-calculator/
 
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cardiacs

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Holy Shit I almost fell out of bed just now reading the news. I think this is an overpay with the pick. Emotionally, I will miss all three players (I include Zizic because I was following him over here a bit). I suppose in the end I give Danny and Brad the benefit of the doubt. Some thoughts (in trying to stay positive):
  • In the NBA I think the concept of consolidating talent to 5-6 players matters a lot and the trade did that IMO
  • If Danny/Brad think the either Tatum or Brown are going to display some accelerated development this deal makes a lot more sense to me. Then IT and Crowder look a bit more expendable
  • Danny was able to avoid an ugly situation with IT at the end of his contract
  • The team is now probably simultaneously the youngest team in the NBA and the favorite to win the conference. Has that ever happened? That's reason to be excited
  • I will give Kyrie a chance on the C's (of course) but I didn't like his game so much and struggle to visualize how his game will mesh what the Celtics were dong last year.
 

HomeRunBaker

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TLDR: He was 53rd in the NBA and 12th among PG's in RPM last year while playing next to the best facilitator in the history of basketball. And that was a good season for him.

Kyrie is a good player, but he is massively overrated by people looking at his individual scoring ability and ignoring all of his many flaws.
I've heard this before but it's backwards. Kyrie didn't benefit from LeBron being a great facilitator because Kyrie wasn't involved in the 2 and 3-man games when LeBron had the ball. It hurt his individual numbers to play next to LeBron.....it didn't help them.

Whatever "many flaws" Kyrie has they are fewer and less dramatic than Isaiah especially against playoff level competition as we've seen the past two years yet for some reason are ignored. Hard to understand.
 

djbayko

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Okay, time to gripe about the Nets pick is over. This team will certainly be exciting. I watched a few videos of Kyrie to remind myself of what he can do. In this one from the 2017 Finals, some of these drives and finishes are even more amazing than I remember...and I remember thinking back then that he was the greatest finisher I had ever seen. I don't love the fact that he dribbles the ball so much to be effective, but he is damn good at it. Trust in Stevens to find a good marriage between isolation and an offense that moves the ball effectively.

 
I'm by no means an alaytical nba guy, but Kyrie strikes me as a guy that could easily improve. For one, when he finally had a team around him, he had the biggest alpha in the league calling the shots, all of them, transactions, who got the ball, etc. Theres all the talk of 'he couldn't play with Lebron...he wanted out of that?' Has anyone ever considered it might suck to play with lebron? It might be grating at some point. I'm not gonna knock him for that. Further, has he ever really had a decent coach? I think saying things like 'he is what he is' is foolish. The only decent coach he's had, while also having talent around him, was Blatt and that lasted what, half a season? There's no reason to think Stevens can't make him a better player (or that IT won't regress without* Stevens, even if fully healthy). IT was nothing without Stevens. Kyrie is already top 25. As people noted, Kyrie has the ability to play D, it's getting him to buy in. Brad has a better chance than Tyron Lue of doing that.
This is definitely the upside of the trade to me. For all of their on-court talent, the Cavs have been a dysfunctional team for years in many ways - Kyrie exchanging the Cavs for the Celtics is like Annie leaving the orphanage to live with Daddy Warbucks. If you're a Celtics fan, you have to be salivating at what Kyrie *might* become if this change in scenery has tangible effects.

One less-noted downside of the trade, though, is that in Crowder and the Nets pick, the Cavs' medium-term future just got a lot rosier - thereby making it more likely that Lebron might stay in Cleveland. I don't know how much more likely that scenario becomes, but if Cavs can use the Nets pick to draft an obvious cornerstone player, and if Crowder works out, and the absence of Kyrie's ego makes Lebron happier, and the Lakers remain a dumpster fire this season...then yeah, Lebron might decide his legacy lies at home after all. And the NBA being what it is, I think you have to factor these considerations into analyzing the trade itself: Danny making it X% more likely that Lebron stays in the East and thereby making it that much tougher for the Celtics to reach the NBA Finals is a real thing.
 

kazuneko

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If it's not bad enough that this trade essentially bets everything on an overrated, undersized point guard who can't play defense, it also makes the team much less likeable.
Two seasons ago, LeBron carried the Cavs to a championship while allowing Irving - a far inferior player - to play defense and/or hero ball whenever the mood struck him. He then got to win a championship by riding on the King's coattails. Apparently, Irving resented the whole experience and eventually demanded a trade so that he can get out from under LeBron's shadow. Of course Irving thinking that LeBron was holding him back is as absurd as him believing the world is flat. He apparently believes both to be true for one reason: he's an ungrateful moron.
The Cs have now bet their future on giving that very moron a stage to play out his fantasies. Luckily he'll be on a good team (apparently his top choice was to play hero ball on an abysmal Knicks team), so he'll have some chance of looking like he actually is a serious player in this league, but in the end the Cs will get their asses kicked by an angered LeBron, and Irving will still end up looking like the fool he is. As Cs fans we are now all on the side of the arrogant ingrate and we will all get to be embarrassed with him during next year's Eastern Conference Finals.
 

LondonSox

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Colour me stunned of all the talent available the guy Ainge throws the chips in for is Kyrie Irving.
Amazing

The price RELATIVE to the deals in recent times is clearly much higher than for Butler PG etc and that stands out as then why Kyrie.

I don't get it. He is better than IT yeah sure two year contract just about as good offensively and no hip concerns - but Crowder is the second key defensive part to leave and a hugely under appreciated player. Zizic eh I don't know enough

Kyrie wanted out and was threatening all sorts of crap. This seems so expensive.

But end of the day it all swings on your view of Kyrie. I don't see it. Don't see the fit, but benefit of the doubt owed there. Don't see how you can expect him to start defending now, that seems like wish casting. Impossible no, but if you're using that to justify the trade, that's not great.

Been a bunch of great posts esp given how shocking it was.

You can totally over rate Kyrie or believe there's more to come with a better coach but it was a high price. One that surely could have got other available players so are you content with Kyrie as your guy. I would be pissed personally.

It's (as someone said) a good team, it's going to be fun to support them. But to come away from all the riches (including stealing IT) with two max free agents Kyrie and be dreaming on brown and Tatum seems... Disappointing. I think Tatum can be good but I can't see two way star anywhere.

And with the cap you keep Kyrie you're not adding anything more. This is what you get plus the one more big pick.
And while people say to spin positive that that could be 2 in a good draft.
Indeed but it could also be non lottery, if Lakers isn't 2-5 and kings are either better OR get #1.

I am not a huge NBA expert in advanced stats.. But I call absolute bullshit on a Stat that has Crowder and Amir Johnson as the 20-21 ranked players. Can you explain this to me?

Sent from my XT1650 using SoSH mobile app
They don't say best, they say best given how they were used etc. A good role player used exceptionally well by a good coach can rank very high on these kinds of stats, it doesn't mean they are literally the X best player. Because their efficiency comes from a limited and not expandable role.

For high usage players this is a bit less noisy, as their role is high and stable (if anything likely could be more efficient of lower usage).
As per all stats they tell one story from one point of view.
 

mauf

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The price RELATIVE to the deals in recent times is clearly much higher than for Butler PG etc and that stands out as then why Kyrie.
You're a bright guy, so you know that teams don't trade players; they trade contracts. One year of George is worth less than two years of Kyrie, particularly when you consider that the right to outbid the competition to resign your own player is worth less than usual in George's case.

Butler is a different story, but I don't think any of us knows why the Bulls moved Butler for LaVine, Dunn and #7. That deal was never going to set the market for players of Butler's caliber.
 

moondog80

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You're a bright guy, so you know that teams don't trade players; they trade contracts. One year of George is worth less than two years of Kyrie, particularly when you consider that the right to outbid the competition to resign your own player is worth less than usual in George's case.

Butler is a different story, but I don't think any of us knows why the Bulls moved Butler for LaVine, Dunn and #7. That deal was never going to set the market for players of Butler's caliber.
The Butler trade reminds me of the Josh Donaldson deal, with Kris Dunn playing the role of Brett Lawrie.
 

pedroia'sboys

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I don't get the obsession with the nets pick, if they gave up the Lakers which could easily be the better pick people would of been fine. If ANY on of the below happens the deal is smart.

IT seems like there's huge concerns with his hip and the start of regular season. He has a injury plagued year.

He has a similar year to last year and some team gives a 30yo 5'8 pg 200 mill and breaks down after year 2.

Lakers pick is better than the nets.
Nets end up being ok in a awful conference

It's pretty clear ainge had Kryrie next 3 years >> IT he did not want to head into next off season and hand IT a max deal.

That's alot of outs. Give me Kyrie over the strong possibility of IT leaving for nothing/hurt and the Brooklyn pick.
 

fairlee76

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This is a Pablo Sandoval level overpay. It will end badly. Kyrie is supremely overrated by many here and by casual NBA fans everywhere. The Cavs just got better now and in the long term. LeBron may stay in Cleveland now.
How are the Cavs better right now? IT is out at least half of next season and may very well be a shell of himself when he returns. Jae is a nice rotation player and who knows what Zizic is. Long term, you might be right. But we won't know until that Nets pick is made and the player is given a few years to develop.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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To me, this trade gives credence to the idea that Danny would have given up the Nets pick for Butler or George if they were available post-Hayward signing, so he could structure the deal that way for cap reasons. Chicago and Indianapolis pulled the trigger before free agency and we'll never know, but I suspect this indicted Danny was willing to give up the pick for a star.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Butler is a different story, but I don't think any of us knows why the Bulls moved Butler for LaVine, Dunn and #7. That deal was never going to set the market for players of Butler's caliber.
I think most NBA teams take the Butler package over the Irving package. IT4 has almost no value to most teams - plus he's only has one more tear before he becomes a huge headache.

The Bulls never would have the Cs package for Butler. Never.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I don't get the obsession with the nets pick, if they gave up the Lakers which could easily be the better pick people would of been fine. If ANY on of the below happens the deal is smart.
Assuming that the rumor is true that DA could have given up either the BRK pick, the LAL pick, or Tatum, then it has to be true that DA thought the BRK was the LEAST VALUABLE of the three assets.

DA and his staff has I'm sure looked at this pretty closely. I think the burden of proof is on those who think the BRK pick has more value than the other two.
 

Curtis Pride

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Took a break for a while at work from this thread after the news broke and after catching up on the last six or seven pages (or the six or seven previous to the last couple, my eyes started to bleed) I've come around a bit after reading the comments, having put it out of my head for a bit. I initially thought 'huge overpay'. After reading reactions - in both ways - I've come around to being perfectly content with this deal. Some random thoughts:

- I'll start by saying I don't watch the Celtics on a nightly basis, so I don't have the personal love for IT that some here might. But I definitely watched more last year than I had since PP/KG got shipped out, they were a fun team and I got sucked in more than usual for a team I knew had no shot. That being said, as charasmatic and fun as IT was it was easy to see he was not a piece to build around and when the playoffs came and he got the shit beat out of him again, I think that was made clear. He's not the alpha on a championship team. Add in the injury and I had no desire to see them extend him. So one season of IT, with a possible hip impairment, in a season they aren't winning a title means not a whole lot to me. Were I more of a fan I could see the attachment, but it's not there for me.
- I'm by no means an alaytical nba guy, but Kyrie strikes me as a guy that could easily improve. For one, when he finally had a team around him, he had the biggest alpha in the league calling the shots, all of them, transactions, who got the ball, etc. Theres all the talk of 'he couldn't play with Lebron...he wanted out of that?' Has anyone ever considered it might suck to play with lebron? It might be grating at some point. I'm not gonna knock him for that. Further, has he ever really had a decent coach? I think saying things like 'he is what he is' is foolish. The only decent coach he's had, while also having talent around him, was Blatt and that lasted what, half a season? There's no reason to think Stevens can't make him a better player (or that IT won't regress without* Stevens, even if fully healthy). IT was nothing without Stevens. Kyrie is already top 25. As people noted, Kyrie has the ability to play D, it's getting him to buy in. Brad has a better chance than Tyron Lue of doing that.
- people have noted that 'playoff' Kyrie is a different beast. That's a bad thing? That's the NBA now. Playoffs. They have their top 3 seed ticket to the dance, if he doesn't turn it on until the playoffs start, fine by me. We sit on the BBTL forum and talk about putting Gronk in bubble wrap until playoffs, what's the difference? If he takes the leap when it matters most, that's all I give a shit about. I watched the Finals in 16 for the first time in a while that the Cs weren't involved and he was a freaking beast. I want that guy on my team. Meanwhile, by Finals time, IT is going to be banged up and here's no way around it.
- other assets. Crowder was redundant. He's a good player but his biggest value was his contract, imo. Heyward/Brown/Tatum can fill the void and Crowders minutes would be reduced. Zizic was enticing and honestly the biggest issue I had was they need a big, if for nothing than minutes. Zizic was their bench big, next year's draft was top heavy in bigs and they essentially just traded two in one move. I didn't like that a lot but I see why DA did it. They weren't backing up the Brinks truck end of year and then who's the next piece? Pulling Kyrie out and keeping him in the East offers some control and furthers Lebron to the West end of year.

End of day I see this as a slight overpay, necessitated by making such a deal with your only conference rival and fascilitated by the amount of assets you've accumulated. But it's far better long term, both roster and salary cap fit than standing pat. If they can get a couple ring chasers to fill the bench it would be nice but that train likely already left the station this late and they aren't beating GS either way.
This is pretty much my assessment as well. Right now it looks like an overpay, but by this time next year, it probably won't. Actually the Celtics as currently constructed has at least a puncher's chance of beating the Warriors/Spurs/Rockets in the Finals this season. High-end talent beats depth in basketball.
 

ehaz

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DA's press conference was interesting. He admitted that IT's hip was a consideration. One thing he kept mentioning was Kyrie's age and fit for this team. I think it's clear that DA and Stevens rate Irving pretty highly, more so than many on this board. Personally, I'm glad they don't make basketball decisions based on +/- and VORP.
 

Wake's knuckle

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The Nets finished the year going 11-12 in their last 23 games, once came back from injury. There's reason to believe the Nets will improve in a weak East while the Lakers fall back.
 

Reardon's Beard

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Uncle Drew spent some time with Bill Russell. It was time well spent.

I love IT. The heart, the fire, the energy, and the game. There was no way he was going to consistently play at that level beyond a year or two in the NBA. The wear and tear (see hip) is going to catch up with him if it hasn't already. If he wants close to max long-term I couldn't see how it works in this era. My heart and loyalty wants to keep him in Green - which I suspect most of us feel - but the rational Belichickian side had all sorts of warning bells going off for beyond this season

It costs a lot to get a 25 year old NBA champion, perennial All-Star. They are a rare asset and it takes creative management to acquire a talent of that level. If you operate under the assumption IT walks next year - which by most accounts seemed to be likely - I'm not sure how you can critique this deal too much absent knowing what other offers were out there. The Celtics landed one of the best players in the league. To me, it doesn't feel as black and white "overpay" as some are making it out to be, but I'll certainly go along and say this falls in the gray area where it helps and hurts each team in different ways. Things to like, things not to like, which probably means it was close to market rate.

I love that it keeps Smart in Boston along with the other young bloods. The average age is mid 20s versus an aging core you see in Cleveland, Golden State, and San Antonio. We kept the LA pick and Stevens now has a world class PG in all facets of the game to play with a faster team that picked up a great deal of experience points in last years playoffs. By my eye, view, and on paper I see no reason they could not make the NBA finals this season - or at a minimum go the distance in the Conference Finals.

Danny has done it before and I'm going to say he's done it again.

Welcome to Boston, Uncle Drew.
 

DJnVa

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Jesus Christ. I am stunned that Danny got fleeced on two different trades this off season. He was better off just letting IT walk next summer and keeping the BRK pick.

If I'm Hayward, I'm seriously regretting my decision to sign with Boston.
This is dumb.
 

DJnVa

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I have read nothing in the thread. I just want to register my anger. This is like when the Pats lost in 2007 - I avoided reading about football for months. I plan on avoiding this sub for a long time.
Good.

And when you don't we'll remind you.
 

DJnVa

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Is no one talking about the comments Ainge made regarding IT's hip and that he may be limited or delayed at the start of the season?


“There’s probably a little bit of delay for Isaiah to start this year,” Ainge said in a conference call with reporters following the trade becoming official Tuesday night.
What would this sub be doing if word of IT's delay came out and there was no deal? We'd be thinking that he's likely gonna be nowhere near what he was.
 
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lexrageorge

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Assuming that the rumor is true that DA could have given up either the BRK pick, the LAL pick, or Tatum, then it has to be true that DA thought the BRK was the LEAST VALUABLE of the three assets.

DA and his staff has I'm sure looked at this pretty closely. I think the burden of proof is on those who think the BRK pick has more value than the other two.
I can see the BKN pick being less valuable to Ainge than Tatum. Tatum has as much upside as anyone in the incoming rookie class, and is a good bet to at least being a decent NBA player in a couple of years. The BKN pick has all sorts of uncertainty with it: the Nets would have to finish in the bottom 3 again, the ping pong balls would have to bounce the right way again, and the player available would need to have the same upside as Tatum. None of those are at all certain.

I have no idea how to compare the LAL/SAC/PHI pick to the BKN pick. One way to look at it is that you only need one of 3 teams to be really bad for it to have potentially the same value as the Brooklyn pick, although it's not quite that flexible, so I still have no idea.
 

Devizier

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As someone who doesn't really like the deal, I will say that sending the BKN isn't as bad as people are making it out to be.

Setting aside the uncertainty surrounding the pick itself, I wonder how many of the current crop of high schoolers are being overconfidently projected into the NBA. It would be interesting to go back over the past decade or so and compare consensus top high schoolers before and after their year in the NCAA/minors. Brandon Jennings and Avery Bradley come to mind as guys who slipped.
 

Valek123

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I said pages ago that I believe IT fails the physical.

On another note the only thing that is making me come around to this is Uncle Drew being in Green. I don't know if this makes us better in 2017, or in 2021 but I believe IT isn't a person to build a franchise around even though I love watching him as a player and a decision had to be made. Deep down he just reminds me too much of Iverson, and eventually his size and defense gets exposed. Both sides of this equation will be interesting to see advance, I actually think the Cavs just got better for this season... Next season is a coin flip with Lebron and IT needing new contracts so this could be a one a done.

Here's hoping Brown and Tatum make the leap right out of the gate this year, if they both step up and that Lakers pick lands in the sweet spot for some size this could be a hell of a run. I just don't think the Celtics roster from last week beats the Warriors, and in the end that's what matters. I think Danny's gut told him the same thing so he's flipping the script and going all in on someone who changes the dynamics. Advanced stats on this one are just so hard to read, as both are system dependent and we haven't seen Kyrie away from Lebron and in Brad's system. I want to badly to like this trade, but god damn the fanboy in me will miss IT.
 

MetSox1

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Assuming that the rumor is true that DA could have given up either the BRK pick, the LAL pick, or Tatum, then it has to be true that DA thought the BRK was the LEAST VALUABLE of the three assets.

DA and his staff has I'm sure looked at this pretty closely. I think the burden of proof is on those who think the BRK pick has more value than the other two.
To me, this trade gives credence to the idea that Danny would have given up the Nets pick for Butler or George if they were available post-Hayward signing, so he could structure the deal that way for cap reasons. Chicago and Indianapolis pulled the trigger before free agency and we'll never know, but I suspect this indicted Danny was willing to give up the pick for a star.

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Sam Ray Not

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Jul 19, 2005
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Age 24 seasons (per 36):

Player A: 21.6 pts on .589 ts / 3.8 reb / 6.5 ast / 2.9 tov

Player B: 25.9 pts on .580 ts / 3.3 reb / 6.0 ast / 2.6 tov

Player B is Kyrie last year. Player A is Steph Curry.

Curry at age 27: 31.7 pts on .669 ts / 5.7 reb / 7.0 ast

Yeah, leaps like that post age 24 are exceedingly rare. And Curry typically looked a lot better than Kyrie by advanced stats like RAPM, I suspect because he does the little things better: rebounds, sets great screens on offense, moves the ball, moves his feet and fights through screens on defense, etc. But some of that is coachable. In terms of actual skills, no one is as close to Curry as a ball handler, scorer and shooter as Kyrie. I'm assuming Brad Stevens is pretty excited about the type of PG he thinks he can mold young Kyrie into, else this deal doesn't happen.

(Still think throwing in both Crowder and BKN 18 was a needless overpay, though).
 
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lars10

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Is no one talking about the comments Ainge made regarding IT's hip and that he may be limited or delayed at the start of the season?




What would this sub be doing if word of IT's delay came out and there was no deal? We'd be thinking that he's likely gonna be nowhere near what he was.
After the end of the season when IT couldn't finish the playoffs part of me wondered what we could expect from him going forward. If this hip injury is nagging it changes the trade completely.
 

LukefromNH

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Dec 31, 2008
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Do people think that the Brooklyn pick is going to be the next Kyrie? this is ludicrous. It's probably going to be between 4-8. You're not getting Kyrie at 4-8. And you're not signing a 30 year old 5 foot 9 point guard for 6 years at max salary. Danny had to take this deal. Even if Cleveland beats us this year(slight greater than 50-50 odds, but certainly no lock), Lebron is gone next year. The East is ours from 2018-2020. We're a KD knee injury or Steph ankle away from 3 straight rings.
This is where I am at. People fall in love with the unknown way to much.

 

Jed Zeppelin

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I think most NBA teams take the Butler package over the Irving package. IT4 has almost no value to most teams - plus he's only has one more tear before he becomes a huge headache.

The Bulls never would have the Cs package for Butler. Never.
Since draft night I've been saying the Celtics version of the Butler deal is something like Smart (Lavine), Brown (Dunn), and Tatum (#7), and maybe Crowder or Bradley for salary purposes. Which, obviously, would have been icky.
 

DJnVa

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I said pages ago that I believe IT fails the physical.
If Ainge is publicly saying that IT will be delayed at the beginning of the season, I gotta think the Cavs know all about his issues and that's not going to be a problem.
 

jablo1312

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Sep 20, 2005
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This is definitely the upside of the trade to me. For all of their on-court talent, the Cavs have been a dysfunctional team for years in many ways - Kyrie exchanging the Cavs for the Celtics is like Annie leaving the orphanage to live with Daddy Warbucks. If you're a Celtics fan, you have to be salivating at what Kyrie *might* become if this change in scenery has tangible effects.

One less-noted downside of the trade, though, is that in Crowder and the Nets pick, the Cavs' medium-term future just got a lot rosier - thereby making it more likely that Lebron might stay in Cleveland. I don't know how much more likely that scenario becomes, but if Cavs can use the Nets pick to draft an obvious cornerstone player, and if Crowder works out, and the absence of Kyrie's ego makes Lebron happier, and the Lakers remain a dumpster fire this season...then yeah, Lebron might decide his legacy lies at home after all. And the NBA being what it is, I think you have to factor these considerations into analyzing the trade itself: Danny making it X% more likely that Lebron stays in the East and thereby making it that much tougher for the Celtics to reach the NBA Finals is a real thing.
I'm not sure how much the Nets pick will play a part in LeBron sticking around. They drafted Wiggins 3 years ago and LeBron promptly shipped him out of town because he wasn't willing to wait for AW to develop into an All-Star caliber talent. I'm sure next year's draft has some top prospects in it, but at the time Wiggins was one of the most highly regarded prospects over the previous half-decade, and LBJ still had no interest in waiting around to see what he could be. I don't think he'll be too swayed by whatever player the Nets pick yields. We're now 3 years past that and 3 year's further into LBJ's career; IMO if he leaves or stays it's going to be based on the established talent in CLE vs. that in other locations.
 

DJnVa

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That pick isn't to make LBJ stay. It's to get a start on a replacement (yes, there is no next LBJ--not what I mean). But they get a likely top pick, then they suck the next season and get another.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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Okay, time to gripe about the Nets pick is over. This team will certainly be exciting. I watched a few videos of Kyrie to remind myself of what he can do. In this one from the 2017 Finals, some of these drives and finishes are even more amazing than I remember...and I remember thinking back then that he was the greatest finisher I had ever seen. I don't love the fact that he dribbles the ball so much to be effective, but he is damn good at it. Trust in Stevens to find a good marriage between isolation and an offense that moves the ball effectively.
If you want to feel even better about the trade watch replay of Rondo running circles around Isaiah in the first couple games of last springs Bulls series.

Then think of the trade in terms of Kyrie for the Nets pick, with a couple role playing fillers (Jae and Ante), along with an expiring contract (Isaiah) that Ainge was never investing in long term.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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After sleeping on it I think I'm alright with this. Brad now has two elite 3 point shooters who can create their own shots in his starting lineup in Irving and Hayward, a jack of all trades big in Horford, and two bulldogs in Smart and Morris. If Smart and Morris can hit a few threes while being disruptive on the defensive end they've done their jobs. Hopefully Jaylen takes a step forward this season and Tatum can bring some scoring off the bench.

It sucks that IT had to go, and he definitely had to go because Danny isn't maxing a thirty year old 5'9 guard with bad hips. This team is not going to have the same blue collar, scrappy identity that they had last season, but I expect a lot more Gino time and better basketball this season. Everyone will be onboard once they see what Kyrie and Hayward can do. Just hope everyone stays healthy.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think most NBA teams take the Butler package over the Irving package. IT4 has almost no value to most teams - plus he's only has one more tear before he becomes a huge headache.

The Bulls never would have the Cs package for Butler. Never.
This!!

Some people are confusing Isaiah's past production with his current trade value as an expiring contract and 5-9 damaged goods PG. It was amazing what he accomplished in Boston but if you are viewing him as the centerpiece of this trade you aren't accurately evaluating the future value of each piece involved.
 

BigMike

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If Ainge is publicly saying that IT will be delayed at the beginning of the season, I gotta think the Cavs know all about his issues and that's not going to be a problem.
Agreed, it has been pretty much out there for months that IT is a risk for next year. Cleveland knew all about this and made the trade anyway. IT was basically a cap dump in the deal, and anything Cleveland gets from him is basically found money.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I still feel angsty about the pick as the resident Nets Tank Commander (guess I have to change my avatar), but the reaction to every Ainge move follows a rough outline of:
1) WTF (in this case this is strictly pick-related; glad IT was moved, ambivalent on Zizic, will get over Crowder)
2) OK I guess it makes some logical sense when you look at it that way
3) Hmm, this is getting interesting now
4) Danny Ainge is a goddamn genius

Fully expecting Brooklyn to improve to the degree that we end up, once again, at #4.
 

allstonite

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If Ainge is publicly saying that IT will be delayed at the beginning of the season, I gotta think the Cavs know all about his issues and that's not going to be a problem.
Actually just now listening to the Simmons podcast and Kevin O'Connor said they can probably just waive the physical. This lends more to the idea that he's a throw in to this trade and the centerpiece is the Brooklyn pick. He's Mike Lowell in the Beckett deal. There's a chance he becomes Finals MVP (or close it it, Lebron probably gets it no matter what) but I'd bet on it going the other way.
 

TheRooster

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Good to see some more informed posts this morning. The chorus of "this is a disaster" posts last night was discouraging. I had thought DA and Stevens had earned more trust than was being displayed. The Celtics got the best player in the trade. The Celtics kept two super-young wings who are prototypical modern NBA prospects in Brown and Tatum. Sounds pretty great to me.
 

Stitch01

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Id like this trade better if Ainge had been able to add some top 2 protection, like Brooklyn pick is top 2 protected only if the Lakers pick conveys next year. Feels like that would have protected the Cavs (the only way they dont get the Brooklyn pick is if they are getting a pick from 2-5) and still probably have been the best offer on the table.

Celts gonna be a good exciting team for a long time, but I do fear the chance they are setting up to not be quite as good as GS the next 2-3 years and then not quite as good as Philly on the back end.
 

Auger34

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Apr 23, 2010
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I posted something earlier about how this was frustrating to me because it takes them out of the running for the next superstar available in a trade (The player I used was Anthony Davis but that's just the first logical name I could think of)

However, thinking more about this now, I don't think that's true. In terms of assets to offer, how many teams can beat Tatum, Brown, and the war chest of picks the Celtics have?
The only team that I think clearly has more to trade is Philadelphia. Depending on how Chriss, Bender, and Josh Jackson develop I think that Phoenix could be in the discussion but I would still put them pretty comfortably below Boston.
Is there any team that I am missing?
 

Eddie Jurak

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Thoughts:

1. Wow.

2. It does feel like a very high price. Had Danny gotten too 1 protection on the Brooklyn pick I'd feel better about it, though it seems very unlikely that the Brooklyn pick will be #1 anyway.

3. This isn't a deal for 2017-2018, it is a deal for the following year/future if Irving is re-signed. I don't think we'll see the best of this iteration of the Celtics in a season in which only 4 players are returning from the previous year.

4. Regarding the IT/KI comparison, context matters a whole lot. KI has played his whole career on crappy teams with crappy offenses... or on LeBron-dominated teams. IT, different story. Always a higher efficiency offensive player than KI, but until Boston always in a lesser role. And in Boston, he had Stevens running an offense designed to create opportunities for him. If Irving buys in to Stevens system, he will get lots of similar chances. And why wouldn't he? Stevens plan for him will involve his being the #1 go to scorer on the team.

5. If I worry about anything, it is the chemistry. Not from a KI will be a cancer perspective, but just because of the turnover and the loss of IT, Crowder, and Bradley.
 

Red Averages

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One underrated piece of this deal: Pairing one of the best finishers in the league (Kyrie) with a guy that consistently gets to the rim but can't finish (Rozier). Hopefully Terry can develop this skill, which would be a huge boost to his value.
 
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