Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd

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AimingForYoko

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I thought you guys were just fucking around with this flat earth shit but I'm reading it elsewhere. Please tell me he's goofing on all of us. CHB will have a field day with that.
I think the dumbassery comes with that weird Hillsong cult that he and KD and Beiber belong to.
 

JCizzle

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People are being awfully critical of this deal when no one really knows how ITs hip is going to affect him going forward, or where BK finishes next year (let alone how those pesky ping pong balls fall).
He was basically a nonfactor in this deal. The biggest thing moved was Kyrie, then the Nets pick, and possibly Crowder after that due to his contract/fit.
 

nighthob

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Disappointing trade because of what we gave up but I'm excited by the Irving upgrade to IT. IT was amazing this year but I always saw his game as basically Hawgie hockey, forever limited because of his awful defense
God did I love watching Greg Hawgood those two good years that he had here. But he so terrible at defense. Not that Rosie was any better on that end of the floor, but his offensive game at its best was also fine art.
 

luckiestman

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The flat earth thing is such a major plus for me. I was kind of ambivalent about him until I learned he told reporters he believed this.
 

scottyno

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I doubt they wait until after the season to sign Smart, I expect them to extend him this fall when they can keep the price of the extension down.
Don't they need cap space to extend him for anything reasonable that he actually might accept? I think it starts at 120% of your current salary which isn't anywhere near what he'd get waiting a year.
 

lexrageorge

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Part of me likes this trade: Horford, Hayward and Irving could be a fun team to watch. And draft picks are a big roll of the dice. I'm in the camp that has seen players improve in aspects of their game after the age of 25, so Kyrie's defense can and should improve. And the IT contract situation was going to be messy.

Part of me dislikes it as well. I loved IT, and I had higher hopes for the BKN pick.

However, the claims that Kyrie is neither a Top 50 player nor a Top 10 PG are truly ludicrous. Yes, he has some issues, but so do a lot of players that rank 10-50. And few of those players are 25. Fewer still would be available to the Celtics in the near or distant future.
 

Sprowl

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Then again a Laker tankathon, with Lonzo getting torched on a nightly basis mixed with a disgruntled Magic will keep us warm many a cold winters night...
... watching Magic haunted by the ghosts of Paul George and Tamperings Past.
 

Merkle's Boner

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The flat earth thing is such a major plus for me. I was kind of ambivalent about him until I learned he told reporters he believed this.
I agree. How anyone can believe he thinks the earth is flat is shocking and tells you a lot about what people will believe.
 

lexrageorge

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Don't they need cap space to extend him for anything reasonable that he actually might accept? I think it starts at 120% of your current salary which isn't anywhere near what he'd get waiting a year.
Players on their rookie contracts who would have Bird rights can be extended to their maximum salary (25% of cap, typically, although there are numerous exceptions). The Celtics do not need cap space; they are essentially using the Bird exception a year early.
 

Koufax

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I hate this trade as well. I had high hopes for Zizic and really wanted to see him develop as a Celtic. If it had been just him and IT, maybe I could get behind this trade, but adding Crowder and the Brooklyn pick seems like a massive overpay. Then there is the emotional part -- IT is a guy I love to root for and watch; Kyrie, not so much.
 

Marbleheader

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I think it's naive to think Hayward wasn't involved in the internal discussions about such a major move.
 

benhogan

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A bored Matt Barnes, toiling on the DL, came up with the idea of including the Brooklyn pick. The guy is just useless on the road.
 

BigMike

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He was basically a nonfactor in this deal. The biggest thing moved was Kyrie, then the Nets pick, and possibly Crowder after that due to his contract/fit.
Agreed, the players basically feel like cap filler.

IT may or may not be an effective NBA player next year, and then is a UFA, and Crowder may have some value to Cleveland, but he was largely superfluous here.

The deal is basically Kyrie for the Brooklyn pick. Could be a great deal, or may blow up in Ainge's face. I have no problem with it
 

RedOctober3829

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People are talking overpay in this deal by mentioning Crowder and Zizic. Those two aren't in because of anything other than salary filler. The sweetener in this deal is the Nets pick. That's the thing that makes the deal in question. I've come around on it. It comes down to the fact that Kyrie and Hayward makes this team better in the playoffs.
 

nighthob

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Don't they need cap space to extend him for anything reasonable that he actually might accept? I think it starts at 120% of your current salary which isn't anywhere near what he'd get waiting a year.
That restriction doesn't apply to players still on their rookie deal. The penalty for early extensions is essentially a two year no trade clause. The last year of their rookie deal, for trade purposes, is valued at the average salary for the next five seasons on the outgoing side, but on the inbound side you only get to count the actual salary. And then they become BYC players for the first year of the extension. But from Boston's standpoint this trade essentially means that they view Marcus as a core player going forward.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I think we're better than Cleveland this year
This assessment is not complete without knowing the status of Thomas. If Thomas is healthy, Cleveland with him and Crowder is a fair bit better than Boston. I wouldn't be surprised to see the newly reconstructed Celtics take a step back this year as Stevens figures out how to play these guys together.

I will also add that it won't shock me if Irving is traded before his contract is up if the chemistry issues are real. I know that's far fetched for some but the guy has to prove that he can fit his game within an actual system.
 

nighthob

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... watching Magic haunted by the ghosts of Paul George and Tamperings Past.
I will laugh my ass off if the LA punishment is a ban on signing George, followed by RWB, George, and LeBron (via sign & trade) teaming up in OKC.
 

scottyno

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That restriction doesn't apply to players still on their rookie deal. The penalty for early extensions is essentially a two year no trade clause. The last year of their rookie deal, for trade purposes, is valued at the average salary for the next five seasons on the outgoing side, but on the inbound side you only get to count the actual salary. And then they become BYC players for the first year of the extension. But from Boston's standpoint this trade essentially means that they view Marcus as a core player going forward.
So they can extend him for whatever they want? Good to know, and definitely agree they need to keep him.
 

sezwho

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I think we're better than Cleveland this year
Yup, with the potential exception that '18 Nets pick could bring a lot of value if traded for something this year.

Think the Pacers GM would like a do-over? The Bulls? That price for Kyrie was steep for sure, especially in the context of those trades, but I'm still going with DA and Brad to maximize the return.
 

In my lifetime

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How much is 1 year of IT worth coming off a very serious hip injury? In addition the injury will likely have long term consequences, which would really make a max contract unwise. I just don't think IT with these issues is a very significant asset. Is maxing IT in a year really a wise use of salary allotment? Danny already made his decision re: ITs contract.

Crowder, and Zizic are certainly assets but unlikely to be game changing assets.

The Net pick is the best asset of the bunch. However, it is probably just as likely to be #6+ as #1 or 2.

Kyrie is a player who certainly will get a max contract and since it would be starting at age 27, at least it avoids the overpay of an older player in an old body.

Tough to fairly evaluate the trade until we see if Kyrie is signed by the Celtics. But to me it is a quarter for 15 cents (draft pick), 2 nickels (1 year of IT, Crowder) and a few cents (Zizic). I can understand why both teams made the trade and it is probably a good trade for both teams. It was a trade Ainge had to make or else he is left just hoping the Net pick delivers big.
 

Clears Cleaver

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A step back in terms of meaningless regular season record. Remember this C's team could have easily been beaten by Chicago if rondo was healthy. Or Washington if kelly didn't have career night. Brad has 80 games to figure it out and Danny has another six months to add some rebounding and defensive depth. C's can win 45 games next year and be a lot more dangerous in playoffs
 

The Mort Report

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So I tried to read through everything in this thread but quit 2 pages ago, so if I'm repeating someone sorry Ill buy you a beer. NBA trades are different than any other sport. While the actual trade itself might be an overpay, it doesn't make it a bad trade. 3 quarters and a dime for a 50 piece might be and overpay, but its a better use of assets than hanging onto those 4 assets. The NBA is all about your top 3 or 4

To those arguing its hurting the teams depth since when has depth won anything? Crowder was going to be the 6-7th guy, and if that guy is deciding the teams fate you are lucky to be fighting for a playoff spot.

Also to the reason to trading the BKN pick over the LAL pick, even before this trade with the moves BKN has made I was concerned BRK might end up in the 8-12 range, especially with the state of teams like ATL, IND, NYK, and CHI. Plus they don't have to play the playoff teams in the west as much as the Lakers

The team turned a local favorite who has had one very good offensive season who they absolutely did not want to be the one to max out to a player younger and better for an extra year who is actually worth maxing. Sure it sucks to give up the BKN pick but from a strictly talent standpoint the Celtics are absolutely better today than they were yesterday with out much sacrifice. I cant ask for more out of Danny
 

Sam Ray Not

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This assessment is not complete without knowing the status of Thomas. If Thomas is healthy, Cleveland with him and Crowder is a fair bit better than Boston. I wouldn't be surprised to see the newly reconstructed Celtics take a step back this year as Stevens figures out how to play these guys together.

I will also add that it won't shock me if Irving is traded before his contract is up if the chemistry issues are real. I know that's far fetched for some but the guy has to prove that he can fit his game within an actual system.
In fairness, the Cavs could have some chemistry issues next season, too. IT's not as natural a spot-up shooter as Kyrie (for one thing, he's a smaller target for LeBron); and adding Derrick Rose to the mix risks making them a clusterfuck on offense and a tire fire on defense.

Too bad the Cs had to throw in Crowder — without him the Cavs might be the worst defensive team in the league.
 

Merkle's Boner

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When evaluating the trade, dont you have to include the two players the C's sign to fill the roster spots left by Jae and Zizic? Because NBA rosters are so tight, having two openings could be fairly valuable as well.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think w/ the Nets pick it's an overpay. On the other hand, the NBA is about getting young stars together and trying to keep them. Kyrie/Hayward at 25/27 is a great start.

They have Horford now and can compete with that trio, plus Brown/Tatum and the LAL/SAC/PHI pick as the last of the top end rookie talent to add. That's a core that could easily have 5+ years in it. I'm a little surprised that Kyrie was the youngish star Danny wanted, but the general idea of getting stars entering or in their primes is the right one.

The NBA Title is won by your top 6, maybe really your top 3 most years. Crowder/Zizic, those kinds of guys are useful, but you can fill those roles off the bench with ring-chasing vets, the one thing that's toughest to find is elite talent. Kyrie to me is an elite talent, and one who has shown he can be a top playoff performer.

On top of that, I notice a lot of comparing the two using just last year. That is likely an outlier for Thomas, and at 29 he's likely on the decline, while Kyrie at 25 should actually improve.
 

Sam Ray Not

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When evaluating the trade, dont you have to include the two players the C's sign to fill the roster spots left by Jae and Zizic? Because NBA rosters are so tight, having two openings could be fairly valuable as well.
On the Zizic replacement front: Andrew Bogut's still looking for a job, last I checked.

Bogut and Tony Allen would bring a boatload of toughness and D.
 

mauf

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Still trying to process this. Going to offer a few observations, rather than an evaluation:

-- If you're not willing to hand I.T. a 4-5 year, market value contract next summer, this deal goes from a close call to a no-brainer -- yes, there's an outside chance that the BKN pick becomes a franchise player, but you've got to take that chance to convert a one-year rental and a role player who will likely be a bench player by 2019 into a player of Kyrie's caliber.

-- Because poor D is often a function of poor effort, we tend to sugarcoat I.T.'s defensive ineptitude, because we don't want to imply that his effort is wanting. But I.T. is one of the league's worst defenders (due to his height, not lack of effort), which nullifies a lot of the value he creates on O. Kyrie can play below-average D and still be a big upgrade on that end of the floor.

-- Kyrie will never be a huge endorsement guy like LBJ, KD, Curry, et al., and he already has a ring. He's the textbook case of a guy you'd expect to take the biggest monetary offer when he hits the market in 2 years. No guarantees -- he might hate it here -- but no reason to expect he's a short-term acquisition.

-- Not sure why folks think Danny could've made the deal without the BKN pick. Tatum is worth more than the BKN pick, unless you think the Nets will have the worst record in the league again. Maybe the Cavs would've taken Jaylen instead of the BKN pick, but assuming Crowder had to be part of the deal, JB was basically untouchable. The Cavs could've done better than just IT and Crowder for Kyrie; if nothing else, PHX presumably would've done Bledsoe, filler, and a protected pick.

-- Zizic had a nice season in Europe and is worth more than the #23 pick the C's used to select him, but I don't see how he fits the C's system even if he reaches his ceiling. Therefore, his role in the club's future always figured to be as a trade asset, and likely not a hugely valuable one. This is the one point where Danny perhaps could have negotiated harder (does Cleveland let this deal fall apart over Ante Fucking Zizic??), but I can't get too worked up about it.

-- Kyrie's attitude is the wild card. Why did he want out of Cleveland, even if it meant going to a team like Phoenix or New York with no near-term prospects? Valuing personal comfort over a chance to win a championship doesn't make you a bad person, but it's not an attribute I want the best player on my favorite team to have.
 

kazuneko

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Just found out about this trade and feel nauseous. Barring a trade that would bring a return of a potentially generational talent, that 18' Nets pick should have been untouchable. Irving isn't that and it's not even close. The true path to the Cs next championship came through the 18' draft or through talent traded for the Nets pick. Landing Irving as a return for that pick suggest that there probably is no path to a championship - at least not until the next rebuild. Ainge has guaranteed the Cs 50 win teams through the next several years, and - unless a player like Tatum ends up emerging as an Mvp caliber player- has probably ruined the teams chances of true championship contention.
In his career as the Cs GM I have often defended Ainge, and prior to learning of this trade saw him as one of the better GMs in the league. I will no longer be doing that. Fuck Ainge. Fuck this trade.
 
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moly99

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However, the claims that Kyrie is neither a Top 50 player nor a Top 10 PG are truly ludicrous. Yes, he has some issues, but so do a lot of players that rank 10-50. And few of those players are 25. Fewer still would be available to the Celtics in the near or distant future.
TLDR: He was 53rd in the NBA and 12th among PG's in RPM last year while playing next to the best facilitator in the history of basketball. And that was a good season for him.

Kyrie is a good player, but he is massively overrated by people looking at his individual scoring ability and ignoring all of his many flaws.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Just found out about this trade and feel nauseous. Barring a trade that would bring a return of a potentially generational talent, that 18' Nets pick should have been untouchable. Irving isn't that and it's not even close. The true path to the Cs next championship came through the 18' draft or through talent traded for the Nets pick. Landing Irving as a return for that pick suggest that there probably is no path to a championship - at least not until the next rebuild. Ainge has guaranteed the Cs short-50 win teams through the next several years, and unless a player like Tatum ends up emerging as an Mvp caliber player, has probably ruined the teams chances of true championship contention...
All I gotta say to this is that the team trading picks is that the grass is always greener. If this pick ends up in the top 3... I'd say that the pick has the CHANCE to have the impact of Kyrie. But it also has the effect chance to bust/be 7-12.

Ballsy trade. I like it

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PC Drunken Friar

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TLDR: He was 53rd in the NBA and 12th among PG's in RPM last year while playing next to the best facilitator in the history of basketball. And that was a good season for him.

Kyrie is a good player, but he is massively overrated by people looking at his individual scoring ability and ignoring all of his many flaws.
I am not a huge NBA expert in advanced stats.. But I call absolute bullshit on a Stat that has Crowder and Amir Johnson as the 20-21 ranked players. Can you explain this to me?

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Jed Zeppelin

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Just found out about this trade and feel nauseous. Barring a trade that would bring a return of a potentially generational talent, that 18' Nets pick should have been untouchable. Irving isn't that and it's not even close. The true path to the Cs next championship came through the 18' draft or through talent traded for the Nets pick. Landing Irving as a return for that pick suggest that there probably is no path to a championship - at least not until the next rebuild. Ainge has guaranteed the Cs 50 win teams through the next several years, and - unless a player like Tatum ends up emerging as an Mvp caliber player- has probably ruined the teams chances of true championship contention.
In his career as the Cs GM I have often defended Ainge, and prior to learning of this trade saw him as one of the better GMs in the league. I will no longer be doing that. Fuck Ainge. Fuck this trade.
To be fair, the '18 pick is going to be "a player like Tatum." So if you think that's unlikely then you have to have always felt that contending was unlikely unless Anthony Davis became available (who we still hypothetically have the goods to acquire).

Reasonable timeline for a raw one and done big to make a real impact on wins is two or three years at best, which is 3 or 4 years from now. Ainge presumably is trying to compete then, but also before then.
 

braudimusprime

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Just found out about this trade and feel nauseous. Barring a trade that would bring a return of a potentially generational talent, that 18' Nets pick should have been untouchable. Irving isn't that and it's not even close. The true path to the Cs next championship came through the 18' draft or through talent traded for the Nets pick. Landing Irving as a return for that pick suggest that there probably is no path to a championship - at least not until the next rebuild. Ainge has guaranteed the Cs 50 win teams through the next several years, and - unless a player like Tatum ends up emerging as an Mvp caliber player- has probably ruined the teams chances of true championship contention.
In his career as the Cs GM I have often defended Ainge, and prior to learning of this trade saw him as one of the better GMs in the league. I will no longer be doing that. Fuck Ainge. Fuck this trade.
I really want you to unpack this--why is the 2018 Nets pick so much more valuable than the 2016 Nets pick or the 2017 Nets pick swap?
 

Rook05

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I love this deal. As much as I would have loved to keepthe Brooklyn pick, I think giving IT the max would've been a disaster. He had an otherworldly year for the C's last year. I don't think he'd be able to repeat that, even with an aging Lebron.

Say what you want about pre-Columbus Kyrie (and Skank will), he has Saturn Nuts-sized balls as GSW will attest.
 

jaytftwofive

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It may make the Celtics a little better but now Ainge and the Celtics made the Cavs better. They added Derek Rose(He has to be healthy.) And added IT, Crowder, Zizic and the Brooklyn pick. They are still better then the Celtics and will be better if they get a great pick next year and they keep Labron and IT who are free agents.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Just found out about this trade and feel nauseous. Barring a trade that would bring a return of a potentially generational talent, that 18' Nets pick should have been untouchable. Irving isn't that and it's not even close. The true path to the Cs next championship came through the 18' draft or through talent traded for the Nets pick. Landing Irving as a return for that pick suggest that there probably is no path to a championship - at least not until the next rebuild. Ainge has guaranteed the Cs 50 win teams through the next several years, and - unless a player like Tatum ends up emerging as an Mvp caliber player- has probably ruined the teams chances of true championship contention.
In his career as the Cs GM I have often defended Ainge, and prior to learning of this trade saw him as one of the better GMs in the league. I will no longer be doing that. Fuck Ainge. Fuck this trade.
I don't know if I would go as far as you because Ainge could still land another piece with existing assets that might make put the C's over the top.

That said, regardless of how much you like Irving or how much you value him over Thomas, he is not a good enough player to cut into the delta between the Celtics and Golden State. That isn't reason not to do the deal but the reality is that he plays, arguably, the least valuable position in the NBA and in a fashion that makes his game hard to meld into certain systems.

He is also going to command a max deal after in two seasons so the C's timeframe for this group is really two years. Again, if this doesn't work, we may see Irving moved at the deadline the season after next just so they don't lose him for nothing.

Ainge really rolled the dice here and per other posters, he and Stevens clearly have some insights we in the general public don't. Let's hope they are right.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Barring a trade that would bring a return of a potentially generational talent, that 18' Nets pick should have been untouchable. Irving isn't that and it's not even close. The true path to the Cs next championship came through the 18' draft or through talent traded for the Nets pick.
Just out of curiosity, how many games do you think the Nets will win next year and why?

If I could convince you that the Nets might win 35 games, does this change your evaluation?

Just to repeat myself, I'm sure DA and the Cs brass were terrified that the Nets were going to be decent under Kenny Atkinson. Plus I assume they have cap room to absorb another bad contract but decent player that could them further out of the NBA basement.

So it could very well that DA sold at the top of IT4 and near top of the BRK pick.
 
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