Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd

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ifmanis5

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Jeff Goodman on ESPN saying the holdup was not players but the pick. Cavs wanted Nets pick, Lakers pick or Tatum. Danny gave them the BKN of the other 2 options.
 

DJnVa

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The whole league knows Kyrie had to get moved so his trade value was at a low. This was an overpay.
I'm not trying to be an a-hole, when I ask this, so please don't think I'm attacking you...

It seems like 90% here think this is a ridiculous overpay because of the draft pick. Yet the Celtics did it anyway, presumably with Brad also being on board.

Why do you think this is?
 

mcpickl

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I've been pushing to trade IT for quite a while now, and I still don't like this trade.

I think Kyrie is overrated, hopefully Stevens can get him to buy in and play some defense.

I think Crowder is underrated, and his defense on wings will be sorely missed unless Jaylen makes a huge jump this year.

I'm still not giving up hope on that Brooklyn pick being protected, the Lakers/Kings/Sixers pick protection details were fluid for a full day from first report. I'd be really surprised Ainge couldn't get any protection there at all, unless he just thinks the Kings pick/2019 draft is better.

Really stunned Kyrie is the guy Ainge went all-in on.

Ainge really has balls of steel.

Edit: guess not on hope of BKN pick protection, Celtics already announced trade
 
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Jeff Van GULLY

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Jeff Goodman on ESPN saying the holdup was not players but the pick. Cavs wanted Nets pick, Lakers pick or Tatum. Danny gave them the BKN of the other 2 options.
Zarren and Ainge think the Lakers will be worse and are betting they won't get #1.
 

DJnVa

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Cleveland is getting praised for this on ESPN by Jeff Van Gundy and others. I'm neutral for now. I'll miss IT on an emotional level, for sure. Seeing him playing with LeBron is going to suck.
Well, Cleveland did do very well in this. Doesn't mean Celtics didn't.
 

dylanmarsh

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Couple things:
1) This reminds me of the Adrian Dantley / Mark Aguirre trade in the late 80s.

2) If the Celtics were on the opposite end of this trade, I'd hate it. Getting a younger, better player in Irving is what sells it for me.
 

ifmanis5

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I'm not trying to be an a-hole, when I ask this, so please don't think I'm attacking you...

It seems like 90% here think this is a ridiculous overpay because of the draft pick. Yet the Celtics did it anyway, presumably with Brad also being on board.

Why do you think this is?
The answer is obvious- they wanted Kyrie who is a true superstar and thus worth it for them.
 

moly99

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Celts traded quantity for quality.
The people who hate this deal don't hate it because the Celtics gave up too many assets. They hate it because they think Kyrie is not a top 50 player in the NBA (and probably not even a top 10 PG) and we just gave up a top 5 pick in a draft next year that will probably be loaded.

In other words the Nets pick will probably be a better value (benefit/cost) than Kyrie himself. That is a downgrade in quality long term.

If you think Kyrie is a top 25 player then obviously feel free to disagree.
 

Auger34

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Has it been confirmed that the Brooklyn pick is unprotected?

If it's unprotected, I really hate this trade. I'm just stunned that Kyrie Irving was the player that Ainge chose to cash his chips in on, especially with the possibility of The Brow being available.

If you remove Crowder or the Brooklyn pick this trade becomes much more reasonable.

Seems like the only possible way for this to end is LAL getting the #1 pick and Brooklyn getting the #2 and Ainge getting completely screwed on the protections in two separate trades fully bites us in the ass
 

Kliq

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I'm probably going to have 50 different reactions to the trade in the next hour but so far:

* The Celtics got the best player in the trade who has the potential to be one of the ten best players in the league. IT was better than Irving last season but he's older, coming off a significant injury and is always going to be a defensive liability no matter how hard he tries.

* The Celtics gave up a lot to get Irving. Not only Thomas but a valuable veteran asset in Crowder who faded in the playoffs but had a very good regular season. Also Zizic who is a buzzworthy stash guy; and a likely top five pick; I think that was way too much.

* Irving has some big red flags. For all the talk about ITs hip, Kyrie hasn't been the beacon of health either. He also is the guy who demanded a trade from a title contender so he could be "the guy" and has some awkward whispers about him. James Jones said that Kyrie went weeks during the playoffs without talking to teammates; like holy shit if that is true. He has the ability to be a better defender than Thomas, but if he never gives the effort that ends up being a moot point.

* I could see Kyrie bombing in Boston and team struggles through a bunch of issues, the main one being that the team traded away their emotional leader who everyone loved, to a guy that goes weeks without talking to his teammates. Meanwhile, Lonzo Ball is amazing in LAL, reviving the Lakers and sinking our remaining top draft pick.

* Kyrie is younger, projects as the better player, and you don't have to give Thomas a massive extension. That being said, Thomas was my favorite Celtic to watch in my years of watching the team. Pierce meant more because he was here for so long, but IT's season last year was awesome; every night going balls to the wall, taking the ball strong to the hole against guys well over a foot taller than him, and being money down the stretch. In addition, he was a genuinely good dude who children gravitated towards in a way no previous Celtic has ever done. This deal in theory puts us closer to winning a championship; but maybe sports isn't all about winning a championship.
 

pdaj

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There's been a lot of quality posts made regarding this deal already, but I still wanted to go on record as liking this trade. Timing is everything, and for, IT, he's a couple of years too old and his current contract deal is a couple of years too short for the Championship Title window Ainge is vying for.

Prior to Thomas' giant leap in performance this past year, the group consensus on this board was that he was a bad long-term investment. Due to his stature and style of play, the fear was was that he would break down before the end of his next contract. Well, he ended up breaking down before his next deal even got started.

Ainge wasn't going to extend IT for the money he was looking for. And, as Boston was constructed less than 2 hours ago, the Celtics likely weren't riding out Thomas' last year as champions.

Thomas still made his lasting impact, however -- as the center-piece of a deal that brings in Irving, a 25-year-old ascending player, who, under Stevens, is certain to get better. He's a huge part of Boston's foundation now and going foreseeable future.

Irving -- 25
Smart -- 23
Brown -- 20
Hayward -- 27
Tatum -- 19

It's hard not to get excited about the potential of this group.

As a quick side-note I'd love to see the Celtics add a versatile vet for the bench. This team's suddenly very, very young.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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LOL....i'm sure Lebron dreams of playing with IT4 and Jae Crowder. Please

Please use statistics to back up your argument. For next season, at least, Cleveland has upgraded assuming Thomas is healthy. If Thomas is not healthy that clearly changes things. But the C's traded a guy who had a +5.4 BPM and 4.8 VORP as well as player with a +1.6 BPM and a 2.1 VORP for a guy who clocks in at +2.5 BPM and 2.9 VORP. In other words, the Celtics traded an older, team-first but more efficient version of Kyrie as well as an above league average three and D wing for a high usage ball-stopper. If the Cavs can get past Golden State (and they have more depth again assuming that Thomas is healthy), I think the calculus changes for James, especially with another young asset aboard - and I think the Cavs will try to pay Thomas if that happens too.

Yes Kyrie has sick handles and yes he CAN play better defense than Thomas. But why hasn't he played consistently better defense? Was he saving it for Brad Stevens? Add the Brooklyn pick and this is a bad bet. Uncle Drew has shown no proclivity to be a team guy and that is while playing on a championship contender.

I want to be clear - IT4 is a flawed player and I get the argument in favor of Kyrie over him even if I don't agree. Crowder is a nice value NBA wing. And Zizic is a question mark as is the Brooklyn pick in terms of what it nets. However together this is a massive - and too concentrated - bet that Kyrie comes to Boston and changes his ways after six NBA seasons where he showed that he is a ball-stopper, a disinterested defender and a guy who couldn't put winning before being the alpha. These are facts. I guess he can still change but I won't be holding my breath.
 

Jeff Frye's Face Mask

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Has it been confirmed that the Brooklyn pick is unprotected?

If it's unprotected, I really hate this trade. I'm just stunned that Kyrie Irving was the player that Ainge chose to cash his chips in on, especially with the possibility of The Brow being available.

If you remove Crowder or the Brooklyn pick this trade becomes much more reasonable.

Seems like the only possible way for this to end is LAL getting the #1 pick and Brooklyn getting the #2 and Ainge getting completely screwed on the protections in two separate trades fully bites us in the ass
Is The Brow actually available? I have not seen anything definitively confirming this. Not trying to snark....just legitimately wondering.
 

ifmanis5

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Funny how Josh Jackson has changed the Celtics roster a few times. Basically refused to be drafted by them and the Suns refused to trade him for Kyrie- it's likely Kyrie would have be in Phoenix already.
 

Soxy

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Kyrie shot himself out of an awesome situation in Cleveland?
LeBron's leaving next season, Gilbert sucks, their coach is a little dude with LeBron's hand up his heiny, and it's Cleveland. The potential moving forward is way better in Boston.
I'm with Ed. I think Kyrie is smarter than people are giving him credit for. He saw the writing on the wall and didn't want to be a part of it, for sensible reasons.

I think he realized Cleveland is a dysfunctional organization that has been successful in spite of itself, solely because they had the best player on the planet. Once the best player on the planet leaves or declines, which is probably going to happen after this season, Irving will be left trying to single-handedly clean up the mess. All this talk of him wanting to be an alpha dog on his own was a polite way of saying, "Please get me the fuck out of Cleveland."

Just like the Celts are selling high on IT, Kyrie wanted to sell high on Cleveland. Get out while the gettin's good. They seem like a disaster waiting to happen once Lebron leaves or declines, which is going to happen sooner rather than later. Celtics are much more primed for long term success.
 

Ed Hillel

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Kyrie's next season in Clev would have resulted in another trip to the Finals. Then, he endures one year in Clev as the MAN and then gets a huge payday. Wow. That sucks for sure.
He gets a huge payday regardless, but now is in line to get more with a supermax because he might actually stay in Boston.
 

mcpickl

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Jeff Goodman on ESPN saying the holdup was not players but the pick. Cavs wanted Nets pick, Lakers pick or Tatum. Danny gave them the BKN of the other 2 options.
If this is true, seems like Celtics should've been able to easily get top #1 protection on BKN pick, and if it hit Cleveland would get Lakers/Kings pick.
 

RedOctober3829

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Please use statistics to back up your argument. For next season, at least, Cleveland has upgraded assuming Thomas is healthy. If Thomas is not healthy that clearly changes things. But the C's traded a guy who had a +5.4 BPM and 4.8 VORP as well as player with a +1.6 BPM and a 2.1 VORP for a guy who clocks in at +2.5 BPM and 2.9 VORP. In other words, the Celtics traded an older, team-first but more efficient version of Kyrie as well as an above league average three and D wing for a high usage ball-stopper. If the Cavs can get past Golden State (and they have more depth again assuming that Thomas is healthy), I think the calculus changes for James, especially with another young asset aboard - and I think the Cavs will try to pay Thomas if that happens too.

Yes Kyrie has sick handles and yes he CAN play better defense than Thomas. But why hasn't he played consistently better defense? Was he saving it for Brad Stevens? Add the Brooklyn pick and this is a bad bet. Uncle Drew has show no proclivity to be a team guy and that is while playing on a championship contender.

I want to be clear - IT4 is a flawed player and I get the argument in favor of Kyrie over him even if I don't agree. Crowder is a nice value NBA wing. And Zizic is a question mark as is the Brooklyn pick in terms of what it nets. However together this is a massive - and too concentrated - bet that Kyrie comes to Boston and changes his ways after six NBA seasons where he showed that he is a ball-stopper, a disinterested defender and a guy who couldn't put winning before being the alpha. These are facts. I guess he can still change but I won't be holding my breath.
He's 25 years old. You don't think his game can evolve? Also, why is it that he didn't put winning before being the guy? LeBron is as good as gone so he was looking out for his future by requesting a trade. Let's see things play out.
 

DJnVa

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Kyrie shot himself out of an awesome situation in Cleveland?
Except it wouldn't be awesome if LBJ left. Kyrie learned from the master. You make the move when you have the leverage. He had it.
 

sezwho

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Given the statistically leaning folk seem to pan this deal, one of the things which will interest me most about the upcoming season is how the Cs actually play with Kyrie on the court. What I believe we will see is Brad Stevens gets him to play Celtic basketball and his numbers reflect this.

I do love IT but am almost stunned when people put him in the same class as Kyrie. I won't remake all the arguments but the simplest to me is they are both great offensive players but that its a two way game. I also accept the premise Kyrie could further step up defensively in the playoffs, especially in the right scheme, while IT is still...IT (even with a healthy hip).

This move also reinforces my belief Bron won't end the season on the Cavaliers
 

DJnVa

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I posted a one-liner about it earlier, but I do wonder how much of the Hayward presentation was showing how Hayward would work on the court with IT and now he's gone. Wonder what he's thinking.
 

Merkle's Boner

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Great thread. Best takeaways for me is that Kyrie is 25 while Isaiah is 29, and Kyrie has more years left on his contract. Also I love the point that the Lakers are in the stacked Western Conference and will therefore struggle to keep up with the Nets. I also agree that IT's hip could be an x-factor.

This also tells me that Danny is very comfortable in either/both of Brown/Tatum getting significant minutes and perhaps filling Crowder's role.

So are Kyrie, Hayward, and Morris the New New Big 3?
 

Cellar-Door

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I posted a one-liner about it earlier, but I do wonder how much of the Hayward presentation was showing how Hayward would work on the court with IT and now he's gone. Wonder what he's thinking.
He should be thrilled. He got an arguably better player who is significantly younger and more likely to be his teammate long term.
 

Auger34

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Is The Brow actually available? I have not seen anything definitively confirming this. Not trying to snark....just legitimately wondering.
No, he's not now but the rumblings were starting to pick up that he would be. It's heavy tea leaf reading but I think you have to assume at this point the Pelicans won't make the playoffs and it's likely Boogie won't resign.
 

bosockboy

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I posted a one-liner about it earlier, but I do wonder how much of the Hayward presentation was showing how Hayward would work on the court with IT and now he's gone. Wonder what he's thinking.
IT was used as a heavy recruiter for him. Probably stunned a bit. Just a stone cold assassin move by Ainge.
 

OilCanMDS

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I am not a fan of this trade both from the standpoint of where it puts Boston and Cleveland relative to each other and in the context of the trade market this summer.

I think Cleveland easily wins this deal as it makes them better next season, giving them a better chance to win a championship if next year is actually LeBron's last year in Cle. If LeBron leaves, they have the chance now to let IT walk too, tank and probably draft in the top 5 of 2018's loaded draft class. If he stays, they still get to pick high up in a loaded draft while having the option to pay IT max money to make a couple more championship runs. On top of that, they get a solid wing in Jae with a great contract, especially for a team with cap issues already. For the Celtics, they got marginally better at PG, an extra year of control of their marginally better PG and lose a solid wing on a great contract and a highly coveted draft pick. I can't see how this trade isn't a net lose of talent for the Celtics now or in the future. Kyrie is not an elite PG. He probably wouldn't even be an All Star in the West (Harden, Curry, Paul and Westbrook are all clearly better guards and Dame and Klay are probably the same or better). He's better than IT, but not enough that I think he turns a team into a championship contender if it weren't already with IT.

Kyrie is arguably the worst star to be traded this summer (I think Paul and George are better and Butler is about the same but plays a more important position in the current NBA) and got by far the biggest return. Butler even has a longer contract and he didn't get close to this return. I usually love Danny's moves or at least trust that he knows better than me when I'm not sure, but this trade is looking really bad. I really hope Kyrie makes a jump to become an elite player.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using SoSH mobile app
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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He's 25 years old. You don't think his game can evolve? Also, why is it that he didn't put winning before being the guy? LeBron is as good as gone so he was looking out for his future by requesting a trade. Let's see things play out.
To quote others- I think its HRB in this forum but other NBA-heads say this as well - at 25, you are what you are in the NBA.

This isn't to say Kyrie cannot get better at certain skills because he clearly can still improve physically. However he has also been in the NBA six years. In none of those six years has he ever played what could be called good defense (aside from some small sample sizes in the playoffs and even then he let guys he was guarding get free). He doesn't distribute well and he, by some accounts (of course this could be team LeBron muddying the waters) he isn't a good locker-room guy.

Look, I hope I am wrong and the guy comes to Boston and helps lead them to more banners. However, I have watched enough NBA to know what this guy is - he has amazing handles and can beat anyone off the dribble. However a guy with his skill set who has no interest in playing consistent defense is a huge red flag. I strongly predict that if he pulls his turnstile act here next winter, a lot of people giddy about him now are going to be cursing him. Again, I hope I am wrong...
 

RedOctober3829

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To quote others- I think its HRB in this forum but other NBA-heads say this as well - at 25, you are what you are in the NBA.

This isn't to say Kyrie cannot get better at certain skills because he clearly can still improve physically. However he has also been in the NBA six years. In none of those six years has he ever played what could be called good defense (aside from some small sample sizes in the playoffs and even then he let guys he was guarding get free). He doesn't distribute well and he, by some accounts (of course this could be team LeBron muddying the waters) he isn't a good locker-room guy.

Look, I hope I am wrong and the guy comes to Boston and helps lead them to more banners. However, I have watched enough NBA to know what this guy is - he has amazing handles and can beat anyone off the dribble. However a guy with his skill set who has no interest in playing consistent defense is a huge red flag. I strongly predict that if he pulls his turnstile act here next winter, a lot of people giddy about him now are going to be cursing him. Again, I hope I am wrong...
I'm not expecting him to turn into the next Avery Bradley on defense. If he can even make just a modest improvement it changes his value.
 

ifmanis5

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I posted a one-liner about it earlier, but I do wonder how much of the Hayward presentation was showing how Hayward would work on the court with IT and now he's gone. Wonder what he's thinking.
Good point. Was thinking this too. Publicly he'll say it's all good either way (we know how well he can type up multiple takes for The Players Tribune) but who really knows.

Looking at the stats, their assist rate is closer than what I thought: http://stats.nba.com/players/passing/#!?sort=PASSES_MADE&dir=1 and http://stats.nba.com/players/passing/#!?sort=AST_POINTS_CREATED&dir=1
 

PedroKsBambino

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To some degree this is just about trusting Ainge and Stevens. They clearly are all-in on Kyrie and he's a guy they have watched very closely.

I hope they are right---my eyes don't tell me he's that good, and the stats I see don't tell me so either.
 
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