2017 Pats Training Camp

Stitch01

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Sorry...corrected...I saw a press report that was obviously wrong that said he was first round pick. But the question and point is still valid. And I'm not sure what your point is but it is interesting that Gronk no longer plays on the PAT team.

And to be civil why not just make your point with insulting the poster. There is to much of that kind of stuff these days. Be kind. Be tolerant. It doesn't cost much.

So here's how that might look.

"Rivers was third round pick. Rivers is a backup. Special teams is how he makes the gameday roster."
I think Gronk not playing on the PAT team is pretty uninteresting and not all relevant here. BB has walked through, in details many times, about how most backup players need to play special teams and how that gives them a base for breaking onto the gameday roster.

And to be civil, why not try and put some thought into posting (and obviously this isnt our first interaction) one line criticisms about the coaching staff? At least maybe know Rivers isnt a first round pick before complaining? There is all to much of that kind of thoughtless nonsense on the internet these days. Read. Think. It doesnt cost much time.
 

Stitch01

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Isnt the most likely approach, particularly given the dogshit division, for the Pats to add depth off the street, feel around for what they have for the first 4-6 weeks, and then make moves from there?
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Isnt the most likely approach, particularly given the dogshit division, for the Pats to add depth off the street, feel around for what they have for the first 4-6 weeks, and then make moves from there?
Agreed.

The trade deadline is October 31 this year and the Pats bye week is that week and they do not play again until November 12 in Denver. Plenty of time to see where they need to upgrade.
 

pappymojo

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My understanding is that the changes to the roster cut downs might actually make it more difficult to bring in outside players for a look. By the time a player is cut from another team, the Patriots will already be at their 53. So, if you claim a player from another team, you have to cut a player from your 53 to make room.

In the past, this might have been easier to bring in another teams cast off because you had only cut down from 90 to 75 and so, you had more wiggle room with your roster.

Edit - I should add that if anyone can identify and exploit a weakness in the process based on the changes to the roster cut down, I would expect it to be Belichick.
 
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Super Nomario

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Isnt the most likely approach, particularly given the dogshit division, for the Pats to add depth off the street, feel around for what they have for the first 4-6 weeks, and then make moves from there?
This makes sense, but I don't think they'll hesitate to act sooner if someone they like it available and the price is right. Eric Rowe and Keshawn Martin are two recent trade acquisitions made in early-mid-September.

FWIW, I see four guys (Hightower, Van Noy, McClellin, and Langi) who have experience both as edge rushers and off-ball linebackers. It seems to me like going to more of a 3-4ish front much of the time is a potential solution to the problem, rather than employing a more conventional 4-3 DE.

My understanding is that the changes to the roster cut downs might actually make it more difficult to bring in outside players for a look. By the time a player is cut from another team, the Patriots will already be at their 53. So, if you claim a player from another team, you have to cut a player from your 53 to make room.

In the past, this might have been easier to bring in another teams cast off because you had only cut down from 90 to 75 and so, you had more wiggle room with your roster.
I don't think this matters too much. First, in previous years most of the interesting players were cut in the second cut-down anyway, while the cut to 75 was more UDFAs who obviously wouldn't make the team. This isn't that different from in the past. Second, the Patriots are hardly shy about tinkering with the back end of the roster.
 

Stitch01

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Yeah, that's true too. Im not panicked right now by the lack of depth, but if they see a guy they like become available a trade is possible. I just dont think the mindset is going to be "we have to upgrade here before the season starts". Not really groundbreaking thoughts or anything.

Reiss also mentioned something along the lines of the LBs essentially acting to make up for the lost depth, that makes some sense too.

Im mostly bummed Rivers is going to lose the year of development.
 
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I'll feel a whole lot better if next week we see previously concussed Deatrich Wise - so far the superior of our pass rushing draft picks - back on the field getting people's attention like he was through the first part of TC. That and an uptick in energy and performance from Kony Ealy (with Freeney warming in the bullpen).

Edit Ipad fingers
 

Tony C

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Sorry...corrected...I saw a press report that was obviously wrong that said he was first round pick. But the question and point is still valid. And I'm not sure what your point is but it is interesting that Gronk no longer plays on the PAT team.

And to be civil why not just make your point with insulting the poster. There is to much of that kind of stuff these days. Be kind. Be tolerant. It doesn't cost much.

So here's how that might look.

"Rivers was third round pick. Rivers is a backup. Special teams is how he makes the gameday roster."
I think it's more than that. The Ringer just had a piece with Lombardi that focuses on ST as the reason the Pats win. In it he says this, which I think answers your query which is perfectly relevant, not so much in re Rivers as in re more high profile players on Pats' ST:

A few years ago, I was talking to a president of an NFL team who wanted to know about Belichick and his obsession with special teams. This executive was highly engaged in analytics and based on his research of the core special teams numbers, he saw no real correlation between having great special teams and a winning record. Yes, he acknowledged making field goals mattered, and he understood the value of field position. However, the time spent by Belichick’s team and allocation of cap resources to special teams for him far outweighed the gains. He kept asking, “Why would he risk playing highly paid players on coverage teams?” And this executive — an analytically inclined type — could care less how many titles the Patriots had won; his data did not support the value Belichick placed on the kicking game. And you know what? The value isn't in the data; it lies in the culture. Building a team’s toughness and quality of execution can't always be quantitatively measured.
Here's the rest of Lombardi's piece. https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/8/10/16122796/how-to-beat-patriots-bill-belichick

I suspect the analytics guy was also not getting the full picture in re impact of field position in re why it is BB treats ST as a full 1/3 of the game and with the requisite emphasis.
 

Reverend

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I believe there was stuff in the last couple years about how Ghost's advantage to the team in the field position game was actually more valuable than his FG kicking, though I can't remember where.

And Gostkowski was a surprise draft pick too, wasn't he, in the 4th round?
 

Super Nomario

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I believe there was stuff in the last couple years about how Ghost's advantage to the team in the field position game was actually more valuable than his FG kicking, though I can't remember where.
I don't know about the kicking specifically, but field position is a massive factor in their success. Last year they were 8th in yardage allowed, 10th in per-drive yardage allowed. They were almost exactly league average in turnovers forced. So how did they have the #1 scoring defense? They had the best average starting fielding position at 25.0 - a full 3.4 yards better than average. Their yards allowed per drive was only 1.6 yards better than average. A lot of that is the offense finishing with the fewest turnovers in the league, but another good bit is special teams.

It should be noted the FG kicking, apart from putting points on the board (or not), also sways field position. A missed long FG attempt (and of course most of the misses are from far away) leaves the other team in very good field position, while a make leads to a kickoff, a desirable outcome. I have read that kickoff performance is "stickier" than field goal performance year-to-year.
 

RedOctober3829

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Hightower is off the PUP list and back practicing today. Nate Solder is also back practicing today.

Not at practice today:Rex Burkhead, Malcolm Mitchell, Matthew Slater, Shea McClellin, Tony Garcia, Matt Lengel, Derek Rivers.


 

RedOctober3829

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We saw only a few short positional drills, but Dont'a Hightower was working with the D-Linemen, not LBs.

Positional versatility. Maybe High will be playing on the line more this year due to depth issues at DE. Hoping he can rush the passer more rather than be in coverage.
 

Stitch01

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Some complicating factors (injury needs to be severe enough, has to be on the initial final 53 roster), and reduces flexibility a little going forward, but incorrectly not PUPng someone isnt quite as bad this year because each team has 2 IR/DTR slots available now. So a team can IR a player and get him back week 8 vs. PUP and eligibility in Week 6 and still have a IR/DTR available.

EDIT: Didnt realize Mitchell had played in the second preseason game. Not sure PUP would have helped.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Some complicating factors (injury needs to be severe enough, has to be on the initial final 53 roster), and reduces flexibility a little going forward, but incorrectly not PUPng someone isnt quite as bad this year because each team has 2 IR/DTR slots available now. So a team can IR a player and get him back week 8 vs. PUP and eligibility in Week 6 and still have a IR/DTR available.

EDIT: Didnt realize Mitchell had played in the second preseason game. Not sure PUP would have helped.
Mitchell took a friendly fire hit to the knee at the end of pass play to O'Shaghnessy. Helmet to side of knee. Was immediately grabbing it. Stayed in and caught a pass after but was later removed due to caution. I'm guessing this absence is relayed to that hit.
 

soxfan121

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What are we to make of the reports that have Hightower practicing at with the defensive lineman and possibly moving to the edge? I didn't think Harris looked like the Harris of old, but maybe that's because he's old and maybe that's because judging anything off a couple preseason snaps is silly. If Harris can still play the middle of a defense competently, it really opens up possibilities for Patricia to move Hightower all over the chess board.
 

bigq

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What are we to make of the reports that have Hightower practicing at with the defensive lineman and possibly moving to the edge? I didn't think Harris looked like the Harris of old, but maybe that's because he's old and maybe that's because judging anything off a couple preseason snaps is silly. If Harris can still play the middle of a defense competently, it really opens up possibilities for Patricia to move Hightower all over the chess board.
Do we finally have another "Elephant" in the mold of Willie McGinest?

http://www.patspropaganda.com/patriots-legend-mcginest-on-the-elephant/
 

H78

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tims4wins

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Giardi had a series of articles this summer, one of them was most overrated Pats. There was a snippet in there about Ealy and about how one exec had no interest in even drafting him due to attitude concerns. Seems like a pattern
 

BigSoxFan

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Giardi had a series of articles this summer, one of them was most overrated Pats. There was a snippet in there about Ealy and about how one exec had no interest in even drafting him due to attitude concerns. Seems like a pattern
Yup. He couldn't have been placed in a better situation and sounds like he just doesn't want to go all-in, similar to a Jamie Collins. The skills are tantalizing though and we obviously have a huge need across from Flowers.
 

Super Nomario

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Ealy may also just not be that good. His career high for sacks is 5.0 even though he's basically played starter snaps the past two seasons in Carolina (~58%). He had that crazy Super Bowl, obviously, but his career as a whole has been pretty uninspiring. The Panthers fans I know / follow were not at all sorry to see him go.
 

H78

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I remember reading the same from Panthers fans. The general consensus seemed to be, "You got sucked into overspending for a guy that had one good game."
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Something just feels...off with this report.

How often do we hear leaks about the Patriots front office? I know this source could exist with another team, but considering the number of covert trades BB has made, we certainly don't hear about stuff like this beforehand very often.

The other issue I have is the wording of the tweet:

One to watch in games tonight: Kony Ealy. #Patriots have gauged trade market for him, per sources. Started to settle in lately, though.
For such a small amount of text, it feels loaded with indecisive wording and vagueness. Were the Patriots initiating a trade? Are they simply taking calls on Ealy? The implication is they're talking trades because they aren't happy with him...but he's playing better recently?

It feels like someone just trying to drum up some retweets, but maybe I'm just wishcasting.
 

tims4wins

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Something just feels...off with this report.

How often do we hear leaks about the Patriots front office? I know this source could exist with another team, but considering the number of covert trades BB has made, we certainly don't hear about stuff like this beforehand very often.

The other issue I have is the wording of the tweet:



For such a small amount of text, it feels loaded with indecisive wording and vagueness. Were the Patriots initiating a trade? Are they simply taking calls on Ealy? The implication is they're talking trades because they aren't happy with him...but he's playing better recently?

It feels like someone just trying to drum up some retweets, but maybe I'm just wishcasting.
Had the exact same reaction when I read the actual tweet. When did they gauge interest? A month ago? Two weeks ago? This morning? He got a ton of snaps and was pretty active against Houston. Will have my eye on him tonight. Maybe that was the point of the tweet - to keep our eyes on him tonight
 
Something just feels...off with this report.

How often do we hear leaks about the Patriots front office? I know this source could exist with another team, but considering the number of covert trades BB has made, we certainly don't hear about stuff like this beforehand very often.
Had the exact same reaction when I read the actual tweet. When did they gauge interest? A month ago? Two weeks ago? This morning? He got a ton of snaps and was pretty active against Houston. Will have my eye on him tonight. Maybe that was the point of the tweet - to keep our eyes on him tonight
Fwiw, Chris Price in the Boston Sports Journal posted a few paragraphs on the report and he pretty much dismisses it too. Because it's a pay site I won't quote anything other than this:
“I don’t think there is anything to it,” a league source close to Ealy told Bostonsportsjournal.com Friday morning.
Yes, I realize it's a source "close to Ealy" and not some team exec. Just pointing out that you guys aren't alone in your thinking.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I find it easy to believe that Pats have 'gauged the trade market' for three or four dozen guys on their current roster, actually. I just don't think it means much because most all those explorations lead to nothing.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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According to numerous reports, Ahmad Brooks looks to be on the way out in San Fran. If Ealy were to go I'd love to see the Pats explore that option. Hell, they should even if Ealy stays. He's 33 but I think he has at least one more productive year left in him.
 

Super Nomario

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According to numerous reports, Ahmad Brooks looks to be on the way out in San Fran. If Ealy were to go I'd love to see the Pats explore that option. Hell, they should even if Ealy stays. He's 33 but I think he has at least one more productive year left in him.
Brooks is still pending trial for sexual battery. The Pats have tended to stay away from guys with violence against women in the past and I don't think they should / will make an exception for Brooks.
 

Ed Hillel

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Well, they did just give a ring to one, so maybe there's a new policy?
I remember reading the same from Panthers fans. The general consensus seemed to be, "You got sucked into overspending for a guy that had one good game."
They moved back 8 slots in the draft at the end of the 2nd round.
 

H78

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Well, they did just give a ring to one, so maybe there's a new policy?

They moved back 8 slots in the draft at the end of the 2nd round.
Yes, I'm not the one that stated it.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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It sounds like they leaked this to hopefully light a fire under his ass and let him know indirectly that he is playing for a spot.
Also, Ealy does not play a single snap during the 1st half vs. Lions tonight. All signs point to him being a goner.

P.S. Gets in at the start of the second half.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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This is surprising to me. With the depth at DE, if he can't make this team there's something wrong with him.
I'm reminded of the BB quote about no longer caring to coach the players he doesn't want to.

That may be the case here. However, as noted several times already no one has been jumping out of their seats about his performance pre-season.