All-Time Sox vs. The Galaxy: Pitching

The Talented Allen Ripley

holden
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As the solar eclipse occurs mid-afternoon on Monday, August 21, 2017, Kang and Kodos descend upon New England in their flying saucer to play a sadistic game upon which the fate of the earth hangs in the balance. Rather than destroy us outright (which they easily have the firepower to do), they decide to make it sporting: they challenge us to a game of baseball. But they stack the deck, of course: through their alien technology, they can summon any ballplayer from any given year to play for their side. Their one concession is they'll leave us the entire Red Sox roster throughout history for our side. This battle for our very lives will be a 9-game series, necessitating a 5-man rotation and a deep bullpen and bench (we're playing with a DH, though, so no need to worry about pinch-hitting for pitchers or double-switches and the like). Who will you choose to oppose this evil and destructive force?

This thread is for starting rotation and bullpen construction... not only who makes the pitching staff, but where the starting pitchers slot, what the bullpen roles are, etc. Assembling the bullpen may not be as obvious as selecting the best 6 or 7 Red Sox closers of all time; this is a 9-game series, you'll need long men, middle men, setup men. Righties and lefties.

To say nothing of the stakes. Civilization itself as a decided underdog, a very decided underdog. Statistics and WAR may try to tell us who has objectively had the best season, but I also know chutzpah when I see it, and if the fate of the planet is in the balance, I'll take confirmed chutzpah. Bruce Hurst in 1986 could earn a spot based solely on what we know he can do in the postseason.

With this is mind, this is the pitching staff I will send to do battle against the Intergalacatic All-Stars, in order of rotation:

Starting Pitchers

Pedro Martinez, 2000 season. Cy Young's 1901 season was more gaudy relative to the competition, but I have to think that Pedro was facing better ballplayers. Plus he's Pedro. He gets Game 1.
Cy Young, 1901 season. He pitched 371 innings in 1901, so that certainly helps his counting stats.
Lefty Grove, 1936 season
Luis Tiant, 1974 season
Roger Clemens, 1990 season. As impressive as he was in 1986, he was better in 1987 and transcendent in 1990, although he was shut down for a while during that campaign.

Notes: Tiant does not belong in the top 5 Sox all-time statistical season for starting pitchers, but I know that guy is fucking nails. And I put him 4th because if the Intergalactic World Series goes to nine games, that means he's starting Game 9, which is exactly where I want him. More than anyone in that rotation. More than even Pedro. And with that in mind, maybe I choose Tiant's 1975 season, where he did more with less and gutted it out like few could do. 160+ pitches in successive World Series games, getting by on guile and guts, he is the hero we need.

Honorable Mentions:

Smokey Joe Wood, 1912
Dutch Leonard, 1914
Babe Ruth, 1916
Mel Parnell, 1949

Bullpen


Long men: Dick Radatz, 1964; Ellis Kinder, 1951
Setup men: Koji Uehara, 2013; Tom Burgmeier, 1980; Jonathan Papelbon, 2006; Bill Campbell, 1977
Closer: Craig Kimbrel, 2017

The only lefty is Burgmeier. I'd have liked another, but the only one that came to mind was Hideki Okajima's 2007 season, and as good as that was, it couldn't supplant the work done by the guys chosen ahead of him.

2013 Koji might be more unhittable than 2017 Kimbrel, but this is a real-world roster construction, and I think Uehara would thrive more in a setup role than Kimbrel.

Honorable Mentions:

Bob Stanley, 1978 (if I felt another long man was needed, he'd be the guy)
Hideki Okajima, 2007 (as mentioned)
Derek Lowe, 2000

Construct your own pitching staff here and argue your point. I went with a 12-man staff... should it be 11, even with the DH? Intangibles absolutely welcome. I'd love to find more lefties for our bullpen in particular.

A hitters/fielders roster to follow at some point over the next month.
 
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Ale Xander

Hamilton
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Oct 31, 2013
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I'm sorry, but I'm taking 2017 Chris Sale over Tiant even after tonight. I'm assuming I can't take Pedro 4 times, too. (1999-2002)
The peripherals are not close.

I'm also taking 1912 Smoky Joe Wood, over Lefty Grove. Finished top-5 in MVP, brought us a title, and had 35 CG that year, so he will help protect the bullpen. And he can hit (.290 .348 .435 .784, 120 OPS+) if we lose the DH.

1) Pedro 2000 (R)
2) Cy 1901 (R)
3) Sale 2017 (L)
4) SJW 1912 (R)
5) Roger 1990 (R)
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
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No love for Keith Foulke? Fuck y'all
Haven't gotten there yet. Yeah, I'm taking Foulke 2004 over Campbell. MUCH lower BB rate (1.6 v 3.9 per 9IP). Lower FIP (mainly due to said walks). Plus you know what.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
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RP Roles:
extra innings/scratched starter: Kinder '51
long guy/starter bombs: Radatz '63 (toss up v. 64, will take better ERA+)
relief ace/high leverage in 6th or 7th/Miller-esque Foulke '04
loogy: Burgmeier '80 (.404 OPSa)
roogy/8th: Uehara '13
secondary closer: Kimbrel '17
primary closer: Papelbon '06 (sub 1.0 era, nails for 3 years)

Taking Papelbon as my primary closer since he's done it well for longer HERE.
 

JShams

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Question: Does choosing a player for the Red Sox roster preclude them from being on the alien roster? Would make picking Babe Ruth a slam dunk for the Sox roster.
 

Al Zarilla

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San Andreas Fault
Mel Parnell came up small in 1949 in a huge, huge game against the Yankees. Next to the last game, Sox need just one win to win the pennant, staked to a 4-0 lead after 3 and he gave it all back. Sox lost both games and the pennant. What's wrong with Schilling '04?
 

The Gray Eagle

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Manager: Terry Francona.
Duh, I missed that this was the thread just for pitching. But in an elimination series I want Francona handling the pitching and bullpen by far over any other Red Sox manager ever.
 

InstaFace

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Manager: Terry Francona.
Duh, I missed that this was the thread just for pitching. But in an elimination series I want Francona handling the pitching and bullpen by far over any other Red Sox manager ever.
Over Dick Williams? I love Tito, I might even vote for Tito, but I don't think he's an obvious, slam-dunk #1.

On the subject of pitching:
- I don't know how you could pick Cy Young 1901 over 1904 or (my pick) 1905. Certainly for pitching 2 games rather than a full season.
- Smoky Joe Wood walked too damn many guys, even if he had better strikeout stuff than any other player of his era.
- Lefty Grove likewise, by the time he came to Boston; his best days were in Philly. Not that he was anything less than an ace for us, but this is a different standard. It's his MVP year in 1931 that you'd really want in this rotation.

My list would be:
- Pedro 2000
- Young 1905
- Clemens 1986. 1990 was driven by a fluky-low HR rate.
- Schilling 2004. Look at that K/BB. Look at it!
- Sale 2017

I wanted to argue for Lonborg 1967 but just couldn't pull the trigger.
 

Bergs

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Josh Beckett's 2007 belongs in the conversation, especially if you wanna consider the postseason. You wanna talk about K/BB ratio? How's 17.5 over 4 games? "Confirmed chutzpah", baby.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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Jul 10, 2007
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The wrong side of the bridge....
RP Roles:
extra innings/scratched starter: Kinder '51
long guy/starter bombs: Radatz '63 (toss up v. 64, will take better ERA+)
relief ace/high leverage in 6th or 7th/Miller-esque Foulke '04
loogy: Burgmeier '80 (.404 OPSa)
roogy/8th: Uehara '13
secondary closer: Kimbrel '17
primary closer: Papelbon '06 (sub 1.0 era, nails for 3 years)

Taking Papelbon as my primary closer since he's done it well for longer HERE.
I would agree with all of this except I might choose Oki 2008 over Burgmeier '80. I realize the Sox never used Okajima as a LOOGY, but on this team, we'd have the luxury of using him as one, and I think I'd take Oki's K/BB-driven .509 OPS allowed over Burgmeier's BABIP-driven .404 OPS allowed. Oki would be a bit more likely to give up a long ball, but I'll take that chance.

For starters, Pedro '99, Sale '17, Dutch Leonard 1914, Tiant '72, and Smoky Joe '12.

I didn't choose Young because anybody can rack up impressive numbers when they throw 370 innings, I didn't choose Grove because somehow, in my brain, he belongs to the Athletics (and therefore doesn't feel like the right choice when the stakes are cosmic). And I didn't choose Clemens just because.

I picked Pedro '99 rather than '00 because of the date. In late August 1999 Pedro was just about to begin what might well have been the most dominating stretch run by a single pitcher in baseball history. It included the famous 17-K Yankee game, but over that stretch, that game was not extraordinary. Over his final 7 starts of the season, he averaged 7.9 IP, 14 strikeouts, and 1 walk per start, allowing just one (memorable) home run out of 201 batters faced, with an ERA of 0.82, a K rate of 47.8%, and a slash line allowed of .148/.194/.206.

I want that guy.
 

uk_sox_fan

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So why can't we fill our pen with starters? This is for the survival of humanity, right? Who'd you rather see coming out of the pen: '80 Burgmeier or '17 Sale? We could have Grove and Wood both as well as Ruth (and, yes, I believe we should absolutely consider blocking the aliens from picking him up for their OF/DH)

Could '78 Eck make the squad? I'm going to go out on a limb and say he'd probably respond well to being converted to the pen...
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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Looking back on this in light of trying to assemble a complete 25-man roster, I think I'd try to go with an 11-man pitching staff instead of 12 to try to get Ortiz on the team. Hell, maybe even a 10-man staff to get Rice or Manny on there, too, although that's likely a misallocation of resources (my team already has 5 OFers, and neither Rice nor Manny were particularly good enough fielders/runners to justify the move from a utility perspective). But with a starting staff like the one I've proposed, how much of a bullpen am I going to need? Then again, the opposing team would be stacked with the greatest hitters of all time.

At a bare minimum, given the time since this was posted last year to reflect on my choices, I'd replace Bill Campbell with Foulke. The next step might be dropping that spot entirely to accommodate Ortiz on the roster.
 

Reverend

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Looking back on this in light of trying to assemble a complete 25-man roster, I think I'd try to go with an 11-man pitching staff instead of 12 to try to get Ortiz on the team. Hell, maybe even a 10-man staff to get Rice or Manny on there, too, although that's likely a misallocation of resources (my team already has 5 OFers, and neither Rice nor Manny were particularly good enough fielders/runners to justify the move from a utility perspective). But with a starting staff like the one I've proposed, how much of a bullpen am I going to need? Then again, the opposing team would be stacked with the greatest hitters of all time.

At a bare minimum, given the time since this was posted last year to reflect on my choices, I'd replace Bill Campbell with Foulke. The next step might be dropping that spot entirely to accommodate Ortiz on the roster.
This bullpen issue raises an issue that I'm not sure I've seen addressed anywhere:
How does the Times Through the Order Issue get affected when all the players are elite?

Like, the batter's advantage on the third time through--is that exacerbated by having elite hitters more than it's mitigated by elite pitchers?

I have no idea. But, for example, if, all other things being equal, elite pitchers fare better third time through, we may need less pen. But if the effect is not something that being an elite pitcher can account for when dealing with elite batters, then we might need more pen.
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

holden
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That's an excellent suggestion. Maybe ditch Kinder and replace him with Miller, with the thinking that a pitching staff as talented as this one only needs one long reliever (Radatz) rather than two. Sure, a 9-game series is long, but given the horses we have, we can ride them into the ground if necessary, the fate of the world hangs in the balance.

Radatz, Miller, Uehara, Burgmeier, Papelbon, Foulke, and Kimbrel. Of course, we'd still need to get rid of one of these guys to get Ortiz on the roster, but I feel better about my matchups having two lefties in the pen instead of just one.
 
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Reverend

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That's an excellent suggestion. Maybe ditch Kinder and replace him with Miller, with the thinking that a pitching staff as talented as this one only needs one long reliever (Radatz) rather than two. Sure, a 9-game series is long, but given the horses we have, we can ride them into the ground if necessary, the fate of the world hangs in the balance.

Radatz, Miller, Uehara, Burgmeier, Papelbon, Foulke, and Kimbrel. Of course, we'd still need to get rid of one of these guys to get Oritz on the roster, but I feel better about my matchups having two lefties in the pen instead of just one.
Ruth is a lefty.
 

Reverend

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Ruth is a lefty.
Swap out Speaker for Ruth and you pick up a left-handed arm and Mookie is your backup CF which is fine--

Wait--does this mean half the games are being played at Fenway?