Yawkey Way now Jersey St again

Tyrone Biggums

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You honestly believe we should tear down all the statues of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson? Are you nuts, Tyrone? Next thing you will want to do is change the name of that state on the west coast that is just north of Oregon? How about changing the name of George Washington University, the home of Yinka Dare(who went to my high school). Ok I agree with changing Yawke Way. Where do we draw the line, honestly asking?
Both were slave owners. Robert Byrd needs to come down too. He was a card carrying member of the KKK. The line is drawn when any statue commemorating any slave owner or slavery comes down. This idea of bigotry being immortalized is sickening. It's incredibly sickening that Faneuil Hall and Yawkey Way have been untouched for this long. We made the right move voting for a progressive mayor. Let's keep making progress.
 

Average Reds

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Are you asking about a new player coming along or secrets being disinterred?

But this entire topic brings to mind Joe Paterno. He was beloved at Penn State.and even widely spread. He made a lot of money as head coach but he also gave more than $4 milllion to the university's libraries. His reputation got destroyed because he did not report heinous acts by one of his underlings. Should they tear down Paterno Library or change its name? They did remove his statue from Beaver Stadium.

[In the matter of full disclosure, I have ties to Penn State.]
Actually, Paterno's reputation was destroyed because he covered up the complaints of inappropriate behavior that were made against his heir apparent in 1998. (Forcing him to retire but otherwise doing nothing.) Then he took an eyewitness report of child rape and tossed it to the AD, but didn't even bother to revoke the locker room privileges of the child rapist in question when no further action was taken.

The man enabled a predator and his reputation deserves to be destroyed.

"In the matter of full disclosure," I say this as someone with much closer ties to Joe Paterno than you. Of course, that doesn't make the example any more relevant either way.
 

Marbleheader

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I agree with this on top of renaming the street. I would make hiring an African American manager a top priority once the team wises up with Farrell.
So, let's correct the legacy of people deciding things based on putting one race above others by deciding things based on putting a different race above others?

The goal should be to be just as pleased to see an Asian, Latino, or any other race manager that gives the team the best chance of success.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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So, let's correct the legacy of people deciding things based on putting one race above others by deciding things based on putting a different race above others?

The goal should be to be just as pleased to see an Asian, Latino, or any other race manager that gives the team the best chance of success.
It's about making things right and you could certainly find many qualified candidates for the role. I'm not saying don't hire a Latino or Asian manager but I am saying it would be amazing if they ended up finally having an African American manager.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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This is about John Henry sleeping at night. If he gets cancer, I doubt he'll hesitate to check the name on the building where he gets treatment. He put his dipstick in the political climate yesterday and he liked what he saw when he pulled it out. Simple as that. He bought the team in 2001 and Yawkey isn't any more or less a racist now than he was then. Change the name, move along.
 

drbretto

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Stop with this "where does it end?" crap...

One thing at a time. We can evaluate the pros and cons of taking down the Washington monument as soon as someone is seriously considering it. In the meantime, we have an opportunity to make a gesture at a time when a gesture would be real nice for a lot of people in the area.

If it's not that big of an issue to you, then instead of making a bunch of wild and crazy arguments against it that have no bearing on reality, just respect that there are quite a few that feel strongly about it. People are more aware now than they were years ago. It stands out more now. That's why it's now and not before. The climate has changed, and it's for the better.

Just let people rally behind a feel good cause. And get a win once in a while. I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but civil rights has taken a beating lately.
 

richgedman'sghost

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Stop with this "where does it end?" crap...

One thing at a time. We can evaluate the pros and cons of taking down the Washington monument as soon as someone is seriously considering it. In the meantime, we have an opportunity to make a gesture at a time when a gesture would be real nice for a lot of people in the area.

If it's not that big of an issue to you, then instead of making a bunch of wild and crazy arguments against it that have no bearing on reality, just respect that there are quite a few that feel strongly about it. People are more aware now than they were years ago. It stands out more now. That's why it's now and not before. The climate has changed, and it's for the better.

Just let people rally behind a feel good cause. And get a win once in a while. I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but civil rights has taken a beating lately.
If you read my post I said I was all in favor of changing the name of Yawkey Way. Don't try to lump me in with some of the Far Right Nazis. I just think that Tyrone went a little too far with his plan to take down the Washington and Jefferson Statues. A few posters agreed with my assessment. Do you think we should rename Fanuneil Hall as well? Anyway if I offend anyone, I'm sorry.. In short get rid of the Civil War Generals on the Confederate side and any other racist statue in a case by case basis. I hate when it takes mob rule to bring down a statue.
 

drbretto

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If you read my post I said I was all in favor of changing the name of Yawkey Way. Don't try to lump me in with some of the Far Right Nazis. I just think that Tyrone went a little too far with his plan to take down the Washington and Jefferson Statues. A few posters agreed with my assessment. Do you think we should rename Fanuneil Hall as well? Anyway if I offend anyone, I'm sorry.. In short get rid of the Civil War Generals on the Confederate side and any other racist statue in a case by case basis. I hate when it takes mob rule to bring down a statue.
Did I accidentally quote you or something? There were several posts I was referring to. And the takeaway of that post was this isn't about you.
 

Jordu

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I'd be in favor of just reverting to Jersey. I think this thing of naming little bits of streets after luminaries is overdone--it feels cheesy.

BTW, the Globe says the change came in 1977 -- but I could have sworn that the street signs still said Jersey when I moved here in 1980, and weren't changed till a bit later. Am I confused? (I mean, about this in particular, as opposed to everything?)
Once you cross Boylston, it's still Jersey Street. Maybe that's what you remember.
 

SoxJox

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Without disagreeing with the general consensus re. statues honoring "loser" "racists", I think John Henry is a hypocrite. If he was so haunted by Yawkey's racism, how could he have ever engaged in a business dealing that certainly benefitted Henry...and Yawkey.
 

Byrdbrain

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Did I accidentally quote you or something? There were several posts I was referring to. And the takeaway of that post was this isn't about you.
But those posts weren't saying "where does it end", Tyrone brought up that not only should this happen but in addition Washington and Jefferson statues should be pulled down. When I asked for clarification to see if he really meant that he doubled down and essentially stated that if you didn't feel that way you were on the side of the Nazis.
I have exactly zero issue with changing the name of the street.
 

drbretto

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But those posts weren't saying "where does it end", Tyrone brought up that not only should this happen but in addition Washington and Jefferson statues should be pulled down. When I asked for clarification to see if he really meant that he doubled down and essentially stated that if you didn't feel that way you were on the side of the Nazis.
I have exactly zero issue with changing the name of the street.
Holy shit. I don't even know who you are. I was not talking to you, specifically. You were not the only one who brought that up. I didn't call you a Nazi.
 
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The Talented Allen Ripley

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Without disagreeing with the general consensus re. statues honoring "loser" "racists", I think John Henry is a hypocrite. If he was so haunted by Yawkey's racism, how could he have ever engaged in a business dealing that certainly benefitted Henry...and Yawkey.
Can you clarify this? I'm not sure I follow.
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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Even so, both Yawkeys were long dead by the time the team was sold, and there were no heirs, so it seemed like a bizarre statement. To say nothing of of the "benefiting Henry" qualifier.
 

Mannygirl

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Never heard a word about it being an issue, from anyone. Now all the sudden the people that are offended by it, didn't know they were supposed to be offended by it, until someone told them to be offended. What a country.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Then you must be very young and /or new here. Most die hard Red Sox fans know about the Yawkey horror racist picture show. I think it's great if the casual fan, such as yourself, learns the history behind the racist owner and learns to call a (relatively) new street a new name.
Never heard a word about it being an issue, from anyone. Now all the sudden the people that are offended by it, didn't know they were supposed to be offended by it, until someone told them to be offended. What a country.

Sent from my XT1650 using SoSH mobile app
 

jose melendez

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Even so, both Yawkeys were long dead by the time the team was sold, and there were no heirs, so it seemed like a bizarre statement. To say nothing of of the "benefiting Henry" qualifier.
Yeah... The money from the sale pretty much went entirely to charity.

The Yawkeys were terrible racists. That's just how it is. But they also did a ton of charitable work.

Get rid of the street name, let their name stay on the MGH building, for which they paid.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Even so, both Yawkeys were long dead by the time the team was sold, and there were no heirs, so it seemed like a bizarre statement. To say nothing of of the "benefiting Henry" qualifier.
I heard this from a caller on WEEI today. Essentially that Henry has profited from what Yawkey built thru his racism and that if he truly meant what he is supposedly standing for, he would (literally) disband the organization, petition the league for a new franchise with a new name to be created and should be forced to bid on it with anyone else. He was legitimately serious. I turned the channel after the initial response from Dale and Holley so I didn't hear his rebuttal (I'd endured about twenty minutes of these idiots calling in to complain and couldn't take it anymore), but I think it was Holley who said that it was the most ridiculous call he'd ever gotten.

Edit:to be clear, what you're referring to, not what you yourself are saying.
 

mauf

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Never heard a word about it being an issue, from anyone. Now all the sudden the people that are offended by it, didn't know they were supposed to be offended by it, until someone told them to be offended. What a country.
Who are these mysterious "people that are offended by it, didn't know they were supposed to be offended by it, until someone told them to be offended?" Surely not the folks discussing the controversy here -- this topic has come up a few times over the decade or so I've been active here.

I'd also echo what others said: if you weren't aware of Tom Yawkey's history on racial issues, you don't know much about Red Sox history.
 

SoxJox

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I failed to add "Foundation" to Yawkey. And I see the foundation every bit as much of an extension of Yawkey - just as the present discussion treats Yawkey Way. If Henry and company were so haunted, dealing with just the foundation should have repulsed him, no matter how much "good" the organization has provided. It's the same gist as others have mentioned earlier re. bad behavior negating otherwise good.

And if memory serves, Werner was quoted along the lines of something like being "overwhelmed" to carry on the Yawkey legacy.
 

joe dokes

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Never heard a word about it being an issue, from anyone. Now all the sudden the people that are offended by it, didn't know they were supposed to be offended by it, until someone told them to be offended. What a country.
Sometimes, external events bring things that were, in fact, pretty well known, into sharper focus. Or raise them to a greater level of importance.

Now, in this case the external event could be that JWH is just trying to distract the paying customers from his dumpster fire of a baseball team.

Or, it could be that Nazis marching in the streets of a US city killed a fellow American who opposed Nazis, and the Nazis seemed to get what could be considered (and was considered to be by many people of different political stripes) tacit support from the President of the US.

One or the other.
 
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mauf

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I failed to add "Foundation" to Yawkey. And I see the foundation every bit as much of an extension of Yawkey - just as the present discussion treats Yawkey Way. If Henry and company were so haunted, dealing with just the foundation should have repulsed him, no matter how much "good" the organization has provided. It's the same gist as others have mentioned earlier re. bad behavior negating otherwise good.

And if memory serves, Werner was quoted along the lines of something like being "overwhelmed" to carry on the Yawkey legacy.
Maybe you would've felt that way, but a reasonable person could certainly feel perfectly comfortable acquiring a business from a private foundation named for a person with well-known racist attitudes who died 25 years before, yet still feel uncomfortable having the street on which that business is located named for him.

And I don't think it's wrong if Henry's discomfort with the latter state of affairs grew over time -- as a fan, my discomfort with Yawkey's name there has grown over the years as well.
 

FormerLurker

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Gerry Callahan, probably the last person I would have expected to favor the name change, has come out in favor of it because of the Fitzpatrick case. It is interesting how every few years that story comes up in the media but never quite gets the front-page publicity it deserves.

The version here (http://www.thepostgame.com/features/201111/another-era-and-another-sport-sex-abuse-scandal-still-inflicting-pain-today) is horrifying reading but at times is vague on dates and names. Jean Yawkey and clubhouse manager Vince Orlando come across as definite villains; the role of Tom Yawkey is a bit vaguer and other authority figures (Sullivan, LeRoux, Harrington, the various GMs and managers over the years) are not mentioned at all. The Globe or someone else with the resources should do a definitive who-knew-what-when investigation. It would likely bring (deserved) harm to the reputations of many previously-respected people, but it needs to be done.
 

Devizier

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Seems like a pretty simple calculus from my perspective.

Jefferson was an enormously impactful political figure who played a prominent role in shaping this country. He was also a deeply flawed individual who held slaves even while enshrining the core ideals of emancipation in the constitution. Washington has a similarly complex legacy. I think it's fair -- even valuable -- to memorialize their legacy since this country doesn't exist without their life's work.

Tom Yawkey was an inveterate racist -- more so than his contemporaries -- who owned a baseball team. His name can stay on the things he endowed. City street names are essentially public monuments. Times have changed.
 

SoxJox

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Maybe you would've felt that way, but a reasonable person could certainly feel perfectly comfortable acquiring a business from a private foundation named for a person with well-known racist attitudes who died 25 years before, yet still feel uncomfortable having the street on which that business is located named for him.

And I don't think it's wrong if Henry's discomfort with the latter state of affairs grew over time -- as a fan, my discomfort with Yawkey's name there has grown over the years as well.
I can buy and agree with this logic.

His name can stay on the things he endowed. City street names are essentially public monuments. Times have changed.
Agree with Mauf...very well put.
 

Spelunker

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Sometimes, external events bring things that were, in fact, pretty well known, into sharper focus. Or raise them to a greater level of importance.

Now, in this case the external event could be that JWH is just trying to distract the paying customers from his dumpster fire of a baseball team.

Or, it could be that Nazis marching in the streets of a US city killed a fellow American who opposed Nazis, and the Nazis seemed to get what could be considered (and was considered to be by many people of different political stripes) tacit support from the President of the US.

One or the other.
Uh, what?
 

E5 Yaz

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Bill Nowlin’s biography of Thomas Yawkey comes out in February. In light of Red Sox principal owner and Boston Globe publisher John Henry’s recent comments that he would lead the way in trying to have Yawkey Way renamed given Yawkey’s racist past, Nowlin makes a case that Yawkey may not have been the racist that he’s portrayed as.

“I never once found any evidence that Yawkey was personally racist,” Nowlin said after extensively researching his book, “Thomas Yawkey, Patriarch of the Boston Red Sox.” “Nor did interviews with several dozen Sox players, including Pumpsie Green and Reggie Smith, turn up any such a suggestion. I looked for a smoking gun, and couldn’t find one.”

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2017/08/19/never-once-found-any-evidence-that-tom-yawkey-was-personally-racist-biographer-says/Ye3sHA09Vo762kcLlty2TL/story.html
 

richgedman'sghost

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Sometimes, external events bring things that were, in fact, pretty well known, into sharper focus. Or raise them to a greater level of importance.

Now, in this case the external event could be that JWH is just trying to distract the paying customers from his dumpster fire of a baseball team.

Or, it could be that Nazis marching in the streets of a US city killed a fellow American who opposed Nazis, and the Nazis seemed to get what could be considered (and was considered to be by many people of different political stripes) tacit support from the President of the US.

One or the other.
Joe Could you explain? This team is defintely not a dumpter fire. 2012 2014 and 2015 were dumpster fires.
 

Spelunker

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I believe he meant it like, since the team obviously isn't a dumpster fire, that's clearly not the reason he's doing it.
I could buy that if anyone had made that argument, but they haven't from I can see. So it's either a really weird strawman or be actually meant it.*

(*Meant that the team is a dumpster fire. In his comparison, he obviously meant the reason for the change were the literal Nazis)
 

joe dokes

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I was responding directly (and sarcastically) to a post that wondered why "this is suddenly such an issue." Specifically:
Never heard a word about it being an issue, from anyone. Now all the sudden the people that are offended by it, didn't know they were supposed to be offended by it, until someone told them to be offended. What a country.
Perhaps I should have just stopped after :
Sometimes, external events bring things that were, in fact, pretty well known, into sharper focus. Or raise them to a greater level of importance.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Bill Nowlin’s biography of Thomas Yawkey comes out in February. In light of Red Sox principal owner and Boston Globe publisher John Henry’s recent comments that he would lead the way in trying to have Yawkey Way renamed given Yawkey’s racist past, Nowlin makes a case that Yawkey may not have been the racist that he’s portrayed as.

“I never once found any evidence that Yawkey was personally racist,” Nowlin said after extensively researching his book, “Thomas Yawkey, Patriarch of the Boston Red Sox.” “Nor did interviews with several dozen Sox players, including Pumpsie Green and Reggie Smith, turn up any such a suggestion. I looked for a smoking gun, and couldn’t find one.”

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2017/08/19/never-once-found-any-evidence-that-tom-yawkey-was-personally-racist-biographer-says/Ye3sHA09Vo762kcLlty2TL/story.html
I'm pretty sure David Duke's biographer would say he wasn't such a bad guy after all. He was just misunderstood. Pat Buchanan was just looking out for people etc...Tom Yawkey was a confirmed racist, period. I don't care what he donated to whom the name needs to go on whatever it's associated with in Boston.
 

Reverend

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I'm pretty sure David Duke's biographer would say he wasn't such a bad guy after all. He was just misunderstood. Pat Buchanan was just looking out for people etc...Tom Yawkey was a confirmed racist, period. I don't care what he donated to whom the name needs to go on whatever it's associated with in Boston.
This is not constructive and is moving towards undermining what may be worthy opinions. You may be correct, but the biograpger's statement is a worthwhile data point to bring up.

Let's not do harm to our otherwise noble goals through letting our morals make us callous to our fellows, eh?
 

Otis Foster

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I'm of the view that the public institutions should change their names to something more acceptable. They can indicate that their projects were substantially supported by The Yawkey Foundation, because that's a fact. Naming the institution or building can be viewed as a public endorsement of the family and its practices.

As to who shot John: The man presided over a management team that was filled with bigots. Either they or he refused to sign any Afro players until well after the old Braves and the rest of the bigs. (Remember when someone shouted'get that *+&% off the field' when Robinson was trying out at Fenway?) His management team allowed the noxious Winter Haven Elks to provide a hang-out for white players while barring black players from the premises. You can go on and on.

At some point you come to the conclusion that he knew what as happening or was indifferent to the policies despite many hints to the contrary. After a 10 year delay in recruiting a black ballplayer. and all the flak he took for that, if he cared at all he would have been hyper-vigilant. Instead, there's barely evidence he was experiencing a beta-wave over the possibility.

We don't allow mementos of an evil past to pre-empt public space. Humans are complex. Everyone contains elements of good and bad. We normally judge people based on the totality of their actions. While the Yawkeys were charitable, they perpetuated a history of racial discrimination in Fenway, that along with other deplorable events of the 70s and 80s painted Boston as a racialist city. Money counts for a lot in the NFP world, but I think the institutions need to consider if they want to be tagged with the Yawkey name.

Just my thoughts.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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I'm pretty sure David Duke's biographer would say he wasn't such a bad guy after all. He was just misunderstood. Pat Buchanan was just looking out for people etc...Tom Yawkey was a confirmed racist, period. I don't care what he donated to whom the name needs to go on whatever it's associated with in Boston.
This is not constructive and is moving towards undermining what may be worthy opinions. You may be correct, but the biograpger's statement is a worthwhile data point to bring up.

Let's not do harm to our otherwise noble goals through letting our morals make us callous to our fellows, eh?
Exactly. Bill Nowlin is the resident expert on all things historically Red Sox and if he says he looked for and couldn't find anything overtly racist about Tom Yawkey, I believe him. It's not like he's doing an authorized biography with the family's approval and needs to sugarcoat things.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Exactly. Bill Nowlin is the resident expert on all things historically Red Sox and if he says he looked for and couldn't find anything overtly racist about Tom Yawkey, I believe him. It's not like he's doing an authorized biography with the family's approval and needs to sugarcoat things.
My problem with this take is that it depends on what one means by "overtly racist." OK, Yawkey was personally nice to Pumpsie Green. Great. But the team he owned was the very last to integrate. The team he owned employed the horrifically racist Pinky Higgins both as manager (twice!) and then as GM. Yawkey and Higgins were reportedly good buddies. Same with Yawkey and Eddie Collins, who might have been more crucial in making the Red Sox a white-only team than anyone else.

Yawkey was not a passive observer during these times where blacks weren't on the team even as other teams integrated. He owned the team. Had he wanted to integrate, he would have done so.
 

AZBlue

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The comments by Tom Yawkey's biographer disgusted me. Tom Yawkey may have kept his racist views out of the newspaper, but he hired and enabled a series of racist General Managers, like Pinky Higgins, who were the direct actors in the refusal to sign future Hall of Fame players (we all know the stories), enabled child molestation and delayed integration of the Red Sox.

It was John Harrington who was the driving force behind the Yawkey Foundation. The fact that Tom Yawkey made a lot of money that someone else spent for admirable charitable purposes does not change his character. You do not have to be Satan's clone and have no redeeming characteristics before it is appropriate to reconsider being honored by having a city street named after you. Almost every despicable character in American history did something that had positive consequences. That does not mean that there should not be careful scrutiny of how they should be honored, if at all, and when we should re-evaluate any past honors.

Comments such as, "Where will it end" and "He did some good things, too" indicate a discouraging insensitivity about the impact that these "honors" have on victims of sexual abuse and racism.
 

Kid T

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A small and probably (in this case) insignificant difference on whether he was an overt racist or not. The fact is, he was an enabler whether he intended to or not, and we are defined by the company we keep.
 

joe dokes

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Agreed on all of the above, and it doesn't look like Nowlin overlooks those facts, and I hope the Winter Haven Elks Club disgrace is discussed as well.
This. The Elks Club stuff wasn't some newsreel-era stuff. That was going on into the mid 80s.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The time is overdue for the walkway to the clubhouse equipment office to be renamed The Donald Fitzpatrick Tunnel. Once this is done then move on to less pressing issues like renaming Yawkey Way.
 

rundugrun

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Both were slave owners. Robert Byrd needs to come down too. He was a card carrying member of the KKK. The line is drawn when any statue commemorating any slave owner or slavery comes down. This idea of bigotry being immortalized is sickening. It's incredibly sickening that Faneuil Hall and Yawkey Way have been untouched for this long. We made the right move voting for a progressive mayor. Let's keep making progress.
And "New York" was named after the Duke of York, a notorious racist who owned the biggest slave trade operation in colonial times. We need to change the name of that hated state and city...
 

Spacemans Bong

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I really like JMOH's suggestion of Sam Jethroe Street, that's actually creative and highlights an undermentioned Boston racial pioneer. Jackie Robinson Way would be trite as hell, I'm not sure the man ever stepped foot in Fenway Park after his tryout and if he did so, it wasn't with gusto. You might as well rename it Martin Luther King Way, since I'm sure he caught a Sox game while studying at BU. I'm not a fan of renaming it after David Ortiz either, it seems over the top.

I would be opposed to removing the Morse code on the scoreboard or the plaques mentioning Yawkey around the park. He was more responsible for the Fenway Park we know than anybody else, and there is a difference between those and a public recognition by the city.