2017 Gold Cup: Our B team is better than your B team

Bosoxen

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My biggest issue with it is its coinciding with the Confed Cup. What that means is that CONCACAF's representative in that tournament is going to punt that summer's Gold Cup. Wtf is the point if the main teams don't take it seriously*?

*Obviously, that's a rhetorical question. The answer is clearly $$$$$$$$$$$.
 

Quintanariffic

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I think the answer is above. Make Gold Cup an every 4th yr affair in the year after the WC and then have an expanded Copa America incl the top 4 GC finishers +2 fill the gap. That event wouldn't overshadow the Euros or anything but over time it would be in the same order of magnitude.
 

Zososoxfan

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Yeah, sign me up for that. I thought the Copa America Centennial last summer was awesome. Getting the US more reps against CONMEBOL teams is pretty much exactly what the USMNT needs on a consistent basis.
 

InstaFace

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My biggest issue with it is its coinciding with the Confed Cup. What that means is that CONCACAF's representative in that tournament is going to punt that summer's Gold Cup. Wtf is the point if the main teams don't take it seriously*?
I'd argue it's the Confed Cup that's the bigger joke at this point. (They may be getting rid of it, too). And it's very short, and happens early. If Mexico had wanted to bring its A-team to the Gold Cup, they could have done so, especially the half of the team that plays for Porto and wouldn't piss off their club by doing so.
 

InstaFace

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I think the answer is above. Make Gold Cup an every 4th yr affair in the year after the WC and then have an expanded Copa America incl the top 4 GC finishers +2 fill the gap. That event wouldn't overshadow the Euros or anything but over time it would be in the same order of magnitude.
OK, so you've just filled the following summers:

Year 0 / 4 of cycle: World Cup
Year 1: Gold Cup
Year 2: Copa America (+ Euros)
Year 3: ??? (+ Confed, if they hold it)

Why not continue to play another tournament in Year 3 of the cycles? I suppose you could do a 12-to-16-team invitational, kinda like what Argentina and Brazil were doing in Asia earlier this summer. Invite a bunch of decent-quality African and Asian teams that you'd otherwise never get to play, use some US college football stadiums, and see which FAs would like to take the money. There's lots of formats you could try. As of right now, "play another gold cup" seems better to me than "do nothing, maybe a few friendlies".
 

SoxFanInCali

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Well, World Cup qualifying is going on, plus some friendlies here and there.

It also wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to let the players rest a little on occasion, especially going into a season that will be followed by a World Cup.
 

InstaFace

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World cup qualifying isn't happening during the summer break, though. Of course, MLS doesn't get a summer break, but still - our best players are abroad, and have the free time, and would benefit from more experiences playing together so they gel as a team. They'd still have plenty of time for a summer vacation, either before or after the competition, before their club preseason starts in earnest.
 

OCST

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http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/114/mexico/2017/07/23/37282582/was-mexico-really-a-failure-at-the-gold-cup?ICID=SP_HN_1

An argument that Osorio used the Gold Cup to get some youngsters some experience between the Confed Cup and WCQ and shouldn't be faulted for the early exit. I'm inclined to agree that this was a good idea. I didn't see Mexico's group stage games, so I won't opine on those. I thought they played well against Jamaica (the second time), and could easily have won that game 2-0 or 3-0, if not for heroics from the Jamaica keeper and a stupendous goal on a free kick. Between the lack of wear and tear on the regulars and the chance to give meaningful minutes to younger players in a tournament less important than either the WC or the Confed Cup - I'd be OK with that as a Mexico fan.
 

Quintanariffic

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World cup qualifying isn't happening during the summer break, though. Of course, MLS doesn't get a summer break, but still - our best players are abroad, and have the free time, and would benefit from more experiences playing together so they gel as a team. They'd still have plenty of time for a summer vacation, either before or after the competition, before their club preseason starts in earnest.
No other federations seem to have a problem with there being no summer-specific tournaments of year 3 in the cycle, so why should CONCACAF be any different?
 

InstaFace

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Because it's a missed opportunity to get better as a national team. We ought to take (or create) any opportunity to play against other good teams who are trying at least moderately hard, especially with the final few WCQ games looming a few months later. How else are we going to maximize our team's potential? We're up against lots of teams with huge built-in advantages in their talent pool, both locally and especially at the WCF level.

If some specific players are worn out and need a rest, rotate them, or have them practice but limit their in-game minutes or whatever. Saying "well the WCF is only 12 months away!" is not a reason to not play, if opportunities to play can be found. And I don't think a few friendlies are enough of an answer.
 

Bosoxen

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http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/114/mexico/2017/07/23/37282582/was-mexico-really-a-failure-at-the-gold-cup?ICID=SP_HN_1

An argument that Osorio used the Gold Cup to get some youngsters some experience between the Confed Cup and WCQ and shouldn't be faulted for the early exit. I'm inclined to agree that this was a good idea. I didn't see Mexico's group stage games, so I won't opine on those. I thought they played well against Jamaica (the second time), and could easily have won that game 2-0 or 3-0, if not for heroics from the Jamaica keeper and a stupendous goal on a free kick. Between the lack of wear and tear on the regulars and the chance to give meaningful minutes to younger players in a tournament less important than either the WC or the Confed Cup - I'd be OK with that as a Mexico fan.
I'm sympathetic to the attitude that Osorio should be fired but, to me, this has nothing to do with it. The kids got some play and came within a moose's ass hair of getting to the final. I don't see the shame in losing to a team that has reached the final in consecutive tournaments - even though this wasn't even Jamaica's top team either. I think the general sentiment regarding Osorio is just a growing frustration which started with the shellacking at the hands of Chile. Toss in getting pantsed by Germany and losing to Jamaica for the first time ever in the Gold Cup (not to mention failing to score a single goal against them in 180+ minutes), and it's not at all surprising that the natives are restless.

Also, and not that we can claim the high road or anything, it's possible his antics in Russia ruffled more than a few feathers.
 

Quintanariffic

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Agree that more meaningful games are better, and harder to come by for the US, but I don't think having that 2nd Gold Cup is the best way to do it. Hell, I'd rather just make up something incl just US, Can, Mex plus an invited guest team and call it the NAFTA Cup or something. That could easily be moved to each of the three countries every 4 yrs and would include decent opposition instead of wasting time and creating injury risk playing the likes of Martinique, Nicaragua or El Bite-a-dor any more than we have to.
 

InstaFace

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Football at the Summer Olympics is a U23 tournament, not a senior-team tournament. And it's that way so that FIFA can participate in the Olympics while not having it be a real competitor to their showcase event in the World Cup. Talking about having US Soccer or even CONCACAF change their rotational schedule is one thing, but the idea that FIFA would change such a thing seems... quixotic at best.
 

Infield Infidel

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Football at the Summer Olympics is a U23 tournament, not a senior-team tournament. And it's that way so that FIFA can participate in the Olympics while not having it be a real competitor to their showcase event in the World Cup. Talking about having US Soccer or even CONCACAF change their rotational schedule is one thing, but the idea that FIFA would change such a thing seems... quixotic at best.
What's quixotic at best is posting basic stuff that most posters in a forum already know as if to educate them. Give posters who post here regularly the benefit of the doubt. I'm well aware that Olympic football is U23 and wasn't suggesting FIFA change Olympic football (no clue how you inferred the latter). Some people enjoy watching it as is, as a number of younger senior internationals get bigger roles than they do on the senior team. Ten US senior internationals at the pre-Gold Cup camp would have been eligible for the 2016 Olympics, never mind three over-age players who can be selected. It would have been great experience for guys like Miazga, Morris, and Horvath.

As someone said upthread, having one summer off ever four years is beneficial, older players can rest, and younger players can settle into their clubs' off season regimen. European and South American players get two summers off unless they are in the Confed Cup, which many view as an annoyance during their summer vacation.
 
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InstaFace

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I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt, but then your post makes no sense. I enjoy watching Olympic football too, but this discussion sprang out of a "what good is having two gold cups per cycle" / "what else could we do instead" debate. You said "there is always the Olympics", as if that was an answer.

We have failed to qualify in 3 of the last 4 Olympic cycles, because - as you no doubt know - the rosters on the U23 side are highly volatile, practice together less, and the international pecking order is far less certain to reflect the quality of the senior teams. Heck, Mexico failed to qualify in 2000 and 2008. CONCACAF only gets 2 bids out of 16, though it had 2.5 last cycle. So, what good would it do us to pin our hopes on that for both entertainment and practice competing at a high international level of quality? Heck, we're having trouble qualifying for a WCF that's twice the size.

We need all the experience we can get, and the Olympics ain't it. Let the Euro and South American internationals rest on their laurels - it's we who need to get up to their level. Doing so will require extraordinary vision and execution both by the US Soccer executives trying to improve penetration and pipelines in the sport in our country, as well as the players to be the best version of themselves they can be, and the US teams as a whole thereby likewise.
 

Joe D Reid

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I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt, but then your post makes no sense. I enjoy watching Olympic football too, but this discussion sprang out of a "what good is having two gold cups per cycle" / "what else could we do instead" debate. You said "there is always the Olympics", as if that was an answer.

We have failed to qualify in 3 of the last 4 Olympic cycles, because - as you no doubt know - the rosters on the U23 side are highly volatile, practice together less, and the international pecking order is far less certain to reflect the quality of the senior teams. Heck, Mexico failed to qualify in 2000 and 2008. CONCACAF only gets 2 bids out of 16, though it had 2.5 last cycle. So, what good would it do us to pin our hopes on that for both entertainment and practice competing at a high international level of quality? Heck, we're having trouble qualifying for a WCF that's twice the size.

We need all the experience we can get, and the Olympics ain't it. Let the Euro and South American internationals rest on their laurels - it's we who need to get up to their level. Doing so will require extraordinary vision and execution both by the US Soccer executives trying to improve penetration and pipelines in the sport in our country, as well as the players to be the best version of themselves they can be, and the US teams as a whole thereby likewise.
Honestly, if you want to try something visionary, I don't think ginning up a summer tournament the year before the WC is the answer. What you'd really want to do is have something like a 6-week team camp where the team drills together, tries to implement a coherent formation and philosophy, etc. If there's a market inefficiency in international football, it's that most teams don't train enough to develop an understanding.

Now, getting players released for that camp would be interesting. But trying to make that happen is a better use of resources than almost anything else.
 

Infield Infidel

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I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt, but then your post makes no sense. I enjoy watching Olympic football too, but this discussion sprang out of a "what good is having two gold cups per cycle" / "what else could we do instead" debate. You said "there is always the Olympics", as if that was an answer.

We have failed to qualify in 3 of the last 4 Olympic cycles, because - as you no doubt know - the rosters on the U23 side are highly volatile, practice together less, and the international pecking order is far less certain to reflect the quality of the senior teams. Heck, Mexico failed to qualify in 2000 and 2008. CONCACAF only gets 2 bids out of 16, though it had 2.5 last cycle. So, what good would it do us to pin our hopes on that for both entertainment and practice competing at a high international level of quality? Heck, we're having trouble qualifying for a WCF that's twice the size.
This sounds like an argument to expand the Olympics. Expansion seems all the rage in the international football salons, Euro, Asian Cup, AFCON, World Cup, and Copa America have all recently expanded or will expand in their next iterations (some more necessarily than others). Maybe Olympics should be next?

We need all the experience we can get, and the Olympics ain't it. Let the Euro and South American internationals rest on their laurels - it's we who need to get up to their level. Doing so will require extraordinary vision and execution both by the US Soccer executives trying to improve penetration and pipelines in the sport in our country, as well as the players to be the best version of themselves they can be, and the US teams as a whole thereby likewise.
The players aren't automatons, they often play 50+ matches per year for club and country. Having time off may help Euro and SA teams recharge for the World Cup the next year, and playing an extra tournament might be a negative.

As far as entertainment, frankly, the Gold Cup is a half-assed tournament. (I watch, because I'm a junkie). It's the only continental tourney which allows roster changes mid-tournament, it's always in the US save the random game in Toronto, and along with AFCON they're the only two that are biennial (at least AFCON rotates hosts). The first round is glorified scrimmages. Even mid-tier CONCACAF countries send B-teams. Players can always skip, knowing the next one is only two years away. Having it every four years would probably get more players playing. But I get that CONCACAF makes these concessions to make the Gold Cup a larger profit center.

With the US probably in the next two Copa Americas, in 2019 and 2020 (and maybe hosting in 2020), the 2019 and 2021 Gold Cups will probably be even less relevant.
 
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This sounds like an argument to expand the Olympics. Expansion seems all the rage in the international football salons, Euro, Asian Cup, AFCON, World Cup, and Copa America have all recently expanded or will expand in their next iterations (some more necessarily than others). Maybe Olympics should be next?
The Olympics also have to fit into a two-week window (OK, two-and-a-half weeks at a push). How do you add teams to the Olympic tournament and still make that work?
 

Infield Infidel

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Olympic football already starts two days before the opening ceremonies; with starting prior to opening day already breached, they could go a few days earlier. Or they could have a pre-qualifying tournament (I wouldn't be in favor). Most of the games aren't local anyway, although the next three hosts could theoretically do most games in their metro areas.
 

OCST

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The problem with all things CONCACAF is that the minnow-to-legit-contender ratio blows, and always will.

In cricket, there is a "West Indies" team in international competition, with players from island nations from across the Caribbean, that has been an international power, winning the cricket WC and usually competitive with the major cricket nations. I'd love to see something like that - an all-star team from Jamaica, T&T, etc. would be a good side. Unfortunately it will never happen.
 

InstaFace

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Does anybody else feel like Michael Bradley has gotten his mojo back to a certain degree? He's been more consistent of late and has avoided the perplexing errors that plagued him for a while (getting caught in possession, stupidly poor passes).

This jumped out at me:



I still think that high-level teams that can exploit his lack of elite quickness will give him fits, but he can and should boss the next tier down.
Well, Jeff Carlisle agrees with you. I didn't know it was Arena who gave Bradley his first cap back in '06 prior to the WCF, either.
 

67YAZ

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Holy shit, this pitch is bad.

And as I type this, Jozy with a long range missle with a good save by Blake. Acosta gets a foot on the rebound and Blake's hand, too. Broken finger or maybe worse? Close up shows Blake trembling in pain. Yikes.

US has picked up the pace a bit the last several minutes, and probably needs to push it a bit more to break down this defense. The ball has to move quicker around around and through the midfield where Jamaica is dropping off.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Zusi definitely does not have the goods to make any kind of useful Beasleyesque transition to defense.

Of course, the main issue is that unlike Beasley he's never really been any good.
 

crystalline

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Ha, I was just thinking - why no one on the back post?
(Announcers now discussing - game has evolved)
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Arriola is around the ball a lot and looks like he's doing a lot of things out there but nothing ever really seems to come of it. Just not sure on him.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Nice finish. Morris hasn't been great but the final ball has been rough all game given the Pulisic-sized hole in the XI so I won't hate on him too much.