The Plan For the #1, er, #3 Overall Pick?

JCizzle

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I agree the knee concerns are obviously worth proper due diligence, but is there any evidence or indication that it's something serious? I doubt many athletes get through a season without some sort of nagging issue, and I imagine his coaching staff was pretty sensitive to protecting him with nothing to really play for and an image to protect with Porter coming in next year (at the time). I can't find much on the actual injury other than it was a sore knee with some swelling that his coach said he could have played through in the short term if there was something at stake.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I agree the knee concerns are obviously worth proper due diligence, but is there any evidence or indication that it's something serious? I doubt many athletes get through a season without some sort of nagging issue, and I imagine his coaching staff was pretty sensitive to protecting him with nothing to really play for and an image to protect with Porter coming in next year (at the time). I can't find much on the actual injury other than it was a sore knee with some swelling that his coach said he could have played through in the short term if there was something at stake.
The bizarre thing to me at the time was that Romar WAS playing him through it and NOT protecting him. I watched these games when he was pulled for a long stretch then later returned. Then he played the next game. Then he was shut down for the season. I have no idea how serious it is but when 18-year olds have knee soreness serious enough to be removed from games then miss two stretches of games......I'm concerned. When this player is your potential #1 overall pick it better check out. We don't want to be drafting Brandon Roy in this spot.

My trading down isn't your typical "trading down" is Ainge has concerns about Fultz' knee while having targeted someone like Jackson or Tatum.....it's more of a situation of getting your guy, reducing your cap hold (if you are going to have a shot at Hayward), and adding another young big. Or a move for Porzingis which gets more intriguing to me by the day.
 

Sam Ray Not

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If you're looking to feel better after last night, here's a scouting breakdown of Fultz's handle: http://fansided.com/2017/05/10/markelle-fultz-ball-handling-kyrie-irving-nba-draft/
Very nice. Rare to see that combo of length and precocious feel for the game. As the article points out, "top speed" tends to be an overrated quality in hoops. How fast was the top speed of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Ray Allen, Curry et al.? None of those guys beat John Wall or Brandon Jennings in a footrace.

I'm only a mild Celtics fan, but as a Pac 10 guy, I'm hella stoked to see the Cs move forward with a core of Jaylen (roll on you Bears!), Markelle (bow down to Washington!) and — next draft — DeAndre Ayton (bear down, Arizona!)
 

Auger34

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One thing nobody has brought up is Fultz' knee checking out. He missed two small stretches of games in the final month of the season to knee soreness.

If this is a concern to Ainge (or if his smooth approach to the game is a concern) it would not surprise me at all for Ainge to swap with Phoenix (4) or Sacramento (5) with the latter having more intriguing prospects to include in Cauley-Stein and Labissiere. I'll also throw one out there that I've got my eye on that typically doesn't happen within a conference much less a division.......Fultz, Avery Bradley, and our #1 pick in '18 (not the Nets pick) for Porzingis. The Phil met with Kristaps brother last week and reportedly the conversation did not go well.......if Phil wishes to maximize his return for Porzingis dealing with Ainge for Fultz is the ticket.
That last hypothetical offer is fascinating.
My pause would be that that '18 pick would lose value to the Celtics because the top 10 of the 2018 draft is pretty much exclusively players that play the 3 to the 5 and the Celtics would be set at every one of those positions.
I wonder if Phil would be interested in a similar offer but with Crowder and the BKN 2018 #1 vs Fultz and the Boston 2018#1. The core of the future Celtics would be much more balanced with Porzingis and Fultz vs. Porzingis and Ayton.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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James Dolan does not care about anything but making sure MSG is full the nights that Billy Joel isn't playing there.

Porzingis is the most popular Knick in 30 years. Dolan isn't trading him.
 

HomeRunBaker

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James Dolan does not care about anything but making sure MSG is full the nights that Billy Joel isn't playing there.

Porzingis is the most popular Knick in 30 years. Dolan isn't trading him.
What if Porzingis plays hardball and says he isn't returning to the States in the fall? He made his voice very clear in the past two months that it is him or Phil moving forward.
 

HomeRunBaker

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That last hypothetical offer is fascinating.
My pause would be that that '18 pick would lose value to the Celtics because the top 10 of the 2018 draft is pretty much exclusively players that play the 3 to the 5 and the Celtics would be set at every one of those positions.
I wonder if Phil would be interested in a similar offer but with Crowder and the BKN 2018 #1 vs Fultz and the Boston 2018#1. The core of the future Celtics would be much more balanced with Porzingis and Fultz vs. Porzingis and Ayton.
No, you need a shiny new star to sell to the fan base and the Knicks have never been able to truly rebuild under Dolan for his refusal to take two steps back to move forward. He would need to be convinced that Porzingis will never re-sign with New York which is looking as though could be the case following Jackson's meeting with his brother which was immediately followed by Jackson firing Assistant Coach Josh Longstaff who was a very close personal friend of Porzingis.
 

NoXInNixon

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What if Porzingis plays hardball and says he isn't returning to the States in the fall? He made his voice very clear in the past two months that it is him or Phil moving forward.
It's hard to imagine a sane person choosing Phil over Kristaps. But then, it's Dolan so you never know.
 

Imbricus

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Actually, on Fultz's knee, HRB, I did mention it way upthread:

One question on Fultz: He did have a sore right knee that bothered him enough in February and March that he sat out a number of games. There's very little information on the nature of this injury, from what I can see on the internet. I found some speculation that it was perhaps a meniscus tear. Does anyone know? Obviously knee injuries are concerning.

So the question: What kind of access to his medical records will the Celtics have? And would they be allowed to do an MRI/other testing of their own (I would think not, but ...)?
Glad you brought it up again. My question still stands (for anyone who knows): What access to his medical records will the Celtics have? I'd be less concerned about a knee sprain than a meniscus tear, as those can suddenly get ugly.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Actually, on Fultz's knee, HRB, I did mention it way upthread:



Glad you brought it up again. My question still stands (for anyone who knows): What access to his medical records will the Celtics have? I'd be less concerned about a knee sprain than a meniscus tear, as those can suddenly get ugly.
Sorry I didn't recall that earlier in the thread.

This is a perfect example of why I'm a huge proponent of players choosing agent representation before meeting with or working out with anyone. Fultz attended the Combine on his own and as far as I know hasn't signed with anyone yet.

Aside from the medicals is it in Fultz' best interest to go to a team which has a clear plan for him to be their franchise player or to the Celtics and be in a logjam for playing time? Do you have him workout or not and if so how much? Do you release medicals or allow their team doctors to examine him. The LAST thing Fultz would want is to be red flagged by the team holding the #1 overall pick which could filter down. If he has Brandon Roy's knees he better not allow team doctors to look at him.....a wise agent will know how to best protect him. If Fultz is calling his own shots well, he's an 18-year old kid so I'm sure Ainge will get all the information he deems necessary.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I agree the knee concerns are obviously worth proper due diligence, but is there any evidence or indication that it's something serious? I doubt many athletes get through a season without some sort of nagging issue, and I imagine his coaching staff was pretty sensitive to protecting him with nothing to really play for and an image to protect with Porter coming in next year (at the time). I can't find much on the actual injury other than it was a sore knee with some swelling that his coach said he could have played through in the short term if there was something at stake.
Certainly nothing out there right now to suggest he has the knees of Brandon Roy, who was known to be a ticking time bomb from day one.
 

Kid T

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We already addressed young bigs in last years drafting of Zizic (5) and Yabusele (4) although somehow landing Ayton with the Nets '18 pick would be a major coup.
I hope you are right but i project them to be more of a role player type rather than a star (which is what I am hoping to get from the 2018 pick).
 

HomeRunBaker

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Certainly nothing out there right now to suggest he has the knees of Brandon Roy, who was known to be a ticking time bomb from day one.
How do you know there is nothing though? All that we know is that an 18-year old got pulled from a game due to a sore knee, missed 2 games, returned for 2 games one of which he returned after leaving to so to the locker room, then was shut down for the season.

I don't know if he has Brandon Roy knees either but he absolutely had some type of problem with his knee and hasn't played in a competitive situation since. That's all I'm saying.
 
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nighthob

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Well for one thing he's about 17 major knee surgeries shy of Brandon Roy's college mark.
 

Imbricus

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I don't know if he has Brandon Roy knees either but he absolutely had some type of problem with his knee and hasn't played in a competitive situation since. That's all I'm saying.
I think this is a really good point. Clearly, he's not a Harry Giles. But then again, look at Greg Oden: Portland didn't think he had knee problems and even did an MRI before the draft and the test looked good. Fultz isn't a seven footer, so that helps, but the Celtics would be smart to do due diligence. I'd want to know at least what was wrong at the end of the season: if the ligaments were sprained, that should be less of a problem than a tear in the meniscus.
 

southshoresoxfan

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Maybe if we are REALLY lucky we can convince the Heat to give us Justice Winslow and 14 for #1.

Stop overthinking this guys. They are drafting Markelle Fultz.
 

Imbricus

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I disagree. It's not overthinking. A few months ago, this guy had sore knees and missed some games. It seems fair to ask how serious the problem was. Anyway, the Celtics are aware of this, I'm sure.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I would pay to see the workout between Fox and Ball that apparently Ball is open to.

edit: apparently DeAngelo Russell liked a tweet that said that no way Lakers should draft Ball.

Well yeah.....that's Russell's job he'd be drafted to take before Magic ships him out of town to a place like Sacramento. Who would want that?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Well yeah.....that's Russell's job he'd be drafted to take before Magic ships him out of town to a place like Sacramento. Who would want that?
But but but . . . . they can play together, right?

And as for Sacramento - seems to me if they are that high on Hield, neither Hield nor Russell would be a great fit (Fox though would be) but who knows with Sacramento?
 

djbayko

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snowmanny

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IIRC Isiah with one a Thomas wouldn't talk to Dallas because he wanted to be the number two pick for Detroit.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Is there any player in sports more hated than Lonzo Ball for reasons beyond his control? I'd like to see him succeed. It'd be good for the NBA.
 

nighthob

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But wouldn't it be more entertaining to watch the Lakers rebuild rest (and fail) on the shoulders of Lonzo Ball and the BIG BALLERs?
No, the greatest hilarity would be for the attention whoring LaVar to see his son drafted by Sacramento. The tweetstorm would be epic.
 

nighthob

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Is there any player in sports more hated than Lonzo Ball for reasons beyond his control? I'd like to see him succeed. It'd be good for the NBA.
I don't think anyone really hates Ball. His father, on the other hand...
 

koufax32

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Is there any player in sports more hated than Lonzo Ball for reasons beyond his control? I'd like to see him succeed. It'd be good for the NBA.
False.

Of course he is heavily influenced by his father but ultimately he could choose to walk away from Dad's psychosis and distance himself from that. Either because he's convinced himself that father knows best or because he values the comfort of the status quo above any benefits from cutting the apron strings (shoe strings?) it doesn't really matter. It's his choice.
If he fails I will enjoy it immensely because 1) I am a bad person and 2) he will have brought it on himself.
 

the moops

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Is there any player in sports more hated than Lonzo Ball for reasons beyond his control? I'd like to see him succeed. It'd be good for the NBA.
Well...Announcing you are leaving for the NBA a few seconds after losing your last college game, and then telling the team with the #1 pick that you are not going to work out for them
 

LondonSox

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I think Simmons is a bit of a hack at times but you see his suggestion yesterday?

Sixers get number 1 pick
Kings get 3, 37 and Boston 2018 first
Celtics get 5, 10, Saric, Lakers 2018 first

Obviously this is highly unlikely but what you guys think? It's more interesting than all agreeing Fultz and done.
I think I would do it though I would agonize. Which probably means about fair.
I'd suspect that the kings might not do that anyway but 3, Saric and Lakers 2018 without them is not impossible
 

BigSoxFan

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Don't see why Kings would do it. Decent chance Fox is there at #5.

From the Celtics perspective, #5, 10, Saric, Lakers 2018 seems like a haul for #1. But if Fox goes #3, then that leaves either Jackson or Tatum, which makes this deal a slam dunk. I like Fultz but Jackson/10/Saric and a likely lotto pick next year would be a no brainer for me.
 

JCizzle

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Looks like the workout might get scheduled soon:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19497896/markelle-fultz-talked-danny-ainge-hopes-top-pick-boston-celtics

Potential No. 1 overall pick Markelle Fultz told ESPN he has had multiple conversations with Boston Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge since the draft combine earlier this month and is hopeful of being selected first in the June 22 NBA draft.

"I've talked to Danny a few times, and they want to get me to come out there for a visit," Fultz told ESPN on Tuesday. "They just want to get a chance to know me better as a person."

Fultz said he has yet to firm up a day when he will visit the Celtics, and likely work out for management and coaches.
Multiple sources told ESPN that Fultz is the frontrunner to be selected first overall.
---

Re: Simmons proposed trade, I don't like it. Someone accurately made the point earlier that fans (in general, not necessarily on here) always complain about having too many complementary players and that we didn't trade the assets for a star. We finally get the #1 pick, and we're talking about flipping it for multiple pieces on a team already loaded with pieces. We're lucky to be in position to finally get a clear cut #1 talent, I think we should keep it and hope he lives up to his potential.
 
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Dahabenzapple2

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Looks like the workout might get scheduled soon:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19497896/markelle-fultz-talked-danny-ainge-hopes-top-pick-boston-celtics





---

Re: Simmons proposed trade, I don't like it. Someone accurately made the point earlier that fans (in general, not necessarily on here) always complain about having too many complementary players and that we didn't trade the assets for a star. We finally get the #1 pick, and we're talking about flipping it for multiple pieces on a team already loaded with pieces. We're lucky to be in position to finally get a clear cut #1 talent, I think we should keep it and hope he lives up to his potential.
agree - unless they change the game to 7 on 7, or unless we think that the combination of one of the # 5 & #10 has a better chance of being a top 5-10 NBA player, NO WAY to make that trade.
 

BigSoxFan

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agree - unless they change the game to 7 on 7, or unless we think that the combination of one of the # 5 & #10 has a better chance of being a top 5-10 NBA player, NO WAY to make that trade.
I think it all depends on how much you value Jackson or Tatum because in that scenario, one of them will be there because Fox would be going #3. I was also intrigued by the potential of the Ball Effect to tear apart the Lakers from within. Thus, it'd basically be:

Jackson/Tatum
#10 (Collins would be my guy)
Saric
Lakers 2018

For

Fultz
2017 #37
2018 #25-30ish

Fultz would basically have to be a stud to match that kind of value although I can understand the arguments against.
 

nighthob

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Don't see why Kings would do it. Decent chance Fox is there at #5.

From the Celtics perspective, #5, 10, Saric, Lakers 2018 seems like a haul for #1. But if Fox goes #3, then that leaves either Jackson or Tatum, which makes this deal a slam dunk. I like Fultz but Jackson/10/Saric and a likely lotto pick next year would be a no brainer for me.
I might think about #3, Saric, and the Lakers 2018 #1 for Fultz. But I would probably want Sacramento's 2019 #1 as well. Fultz is the only tier 1 talent in this pool, and trading down for lesser offensive players would take a real premium for me. And mostly because trading down to #3 would be part of a push for Butler or George, and both teams are going to want to raid Boston's cupboard heavily in any trade.
 

Saints Rest

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I agree that the Celts need top-end talent, not more role players.

Looking ahead, and thinking optimistically . . .
For this coming season:
Thomas, Smart, Fultz, Rozier
Hayward, Brown, Crowder, Yabu
Horford, Zizic
plus filler for end of bench
(assumes AB gets shipped out and that IT4 is ready for the start of the season)

For 2018:
Add the Nets Pick, perhaps trade Crowder or IT4 (pending who the pick is and what IT4 wants).

Key questions:
  • Can Rozier show an improvement arc such as AB went thru? Can his defense get to AB level?
  • Can Fultz and/or Hayward become the go-to guy to replace IT4 scoring by the start of 2018?
  • Can Zizic and Yabu be an improvement on Amir?
  • How lucky can the Celts get in a second lottery?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I think it all depends on how much you value Jackson or Tatum because in that scenario, one of them will be there because Fox would be going #3. I was also intrigued by the potential of the Ball Effect to tear apart the Lakers from within. Thus, it'd basically be:

Jackson/Tatum
#10 (Collins would be my guy)
Saric
Lakers 2018

For

Fultz
2017 #37
2018 #25-30ish

Fultz would basically have to be a stud to match that kind of value although I can understand the arguments against.
I think it depends on how bad you think the Lakers will be - more specifically, whether they would take Ball. If the Lakers take Ball, I'd do it just because (i) you're only guaranteed Jackson/Tatum if the Lakers pick Ball #2 and (ii) I think getting two top picks next year would be unbelievable.

Maybe the chance of Jackson/Tatum or the #10 pick to be a top 10 NBA player is less than Fultz, but to properly evaluate the trade, you have to add in the chance of getting one of Doncic, Porter, or Ayton to that.

Neither SAC nor PHI are doing that trade though.
 

BigSoxFan

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I think it depends on how bad you think the Lakers will be - more specifically, whether they would take Ball. If the Lakers take Ball, I'd do it just because (i) you're only guaranteed Jackson/Tatum if the Lakers pick Ball #2 and (ii) I think getting two top picks next year would be unbelievable.

Maybe the chance of Jackson/Tatum or the #10 pick to be a top 10 NBA player is less than Fultz, but to properly evaluate the trade, you have to add in the chance of getting one of Doncic, Porter, or Ayton to that.

Neither SAC nor PHI are doing that trade though.
Unless something drastic happens, I don't see how the Lakers aren't a bottom 7 or 8 team again next year. Having their pick and Brooklyn's would be intriguing to me given the potential in the top 5. But if you made a trade like this, you'd have too many young players and would likely take a step backwards.

As nighthob mentioned, it should take a lot to get us to move off of Fultz since neither Jackson nor Tatum appears to be an elite scorer/creator in the NBA.

I'm sure Ainge is going to get bombarded with these kinds of offers and he'll certainly listen to see just how motivated some of these teams are. Philly seems to still be in asset accumulation mode so I'd be surprised if they made a trade like this. And who the hell knows with Sacramento although I think they'd be crazy to give up 5/10 for 3. At 5, they can sit back and take whoever is left and 10 gives them another upside pick. And since no decent FA is going to Sacramento any time soon, they need to hold onto these picks.
 

nighthob

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Honestly Sacramento is irrelevant to the discussion. Boston neither wants nor needs one pick on the tier 2/tier 3 threshold and a pick solidly in the tier 3 range. A Boston/Philly direct deal is a lot more possible, but as I said, because it makes it easier for Boston to make a hard push for George or Butler.