Arsenal 2016-17: Get Ready For A Xhak-attack

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,595
Pittsburgh, PA
Poor Jordan Pickford.

This should be about 8-0 (or 8-1 given Monreal's error)
You're absolutely right about Pickford. But can I ask a dumb question for a sec? I know this board loves those.

Monreal makes an intentional back-pass to nobody, because Cech is way outside. It's heading for the 6-yard box. If Cech touches it, it's an indirect kick from that spot (which it was). But if he lets it go, that ball rolls out for a corner, missing the goal by several feet. Wouldn't that have been preferable?

There's video at 4:45 here. I think by the time Cech took a few strides it was clearly going into the side netting. If you can get there with a foot and prevent the corner, so much the better, but why was it necessary that he handle the ball?
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 2, 2006
22,335
Philadelphia
You're absolutely right about Pickford. But can I ask a dumb question for a sec? I know this board loves those.

Monreal makes an intentional back-pass to nobody, because Cech is way outside. It's heading for the 6-yard box. If Cech touches it, it's an indirect kick from that spot (which it was). But if he lets it go, that ball rolls out for a corner, missing the goal by several feet. Wouldn't that have been preferable?

There's video at 4:45 here. I think by the time Cech took a few strides it was clearly going into the side netting. If you can get there with a foot and prevent the corner, so much the better, but why was it necessary that he handle the ball?
I think he was just completely surprised by the situation, lost his bearings a bit, and just wasn't positive that the ball wouldn't roll into the goal. My first reaction was the same as yours - he could have judged the trajectory better and just let it roll out for a corner. But in the heat of the moment it was probably safety first.

The free kick should have been placed much closer to the goal. I love indirect free kicks inside the box just because they're so crazy.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,595
Pittsburgh, PA
Now that'd be an interesting dilemma for Arsenal fans - would they rather have an odious Russian oligarch who built his fortune on the back of "disappearing" annoying labor challenges to his mining operations, but is willing to spend transfer dollars up to the FFP limit?

I enjoy having ownership as one of the things I can hate Chelsea for. That would give me pause.
 

the1andonly3003

New Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,364
Chicago
Time to take a long hard look at this roster as the club enters the summer transfer window. Regardless of what happens up top, there needs to be decisions made for players going out of contract this and next summer. Here is my stab at it (based on transfermarkt.com):

out of contract this summer:

Santi Cazarla (option for next season): time to let him go
Yaya Sanogo: keep and develop?

out of contract after 2017-2018:
Alexis Sanchez: sell at his peak value, don't want to pay high wages during ages 30+
Mesut Ozil: same as Alexis, sell; disappearing during big games was disconcerting
Aaron Ramsay: given his injury history, not sure anything is needed to be done this summer
Ox: he seemed to play well once they shifted to a 3-4-3; offer a new contract
Kieran Gibbs: not sure he has a place given the congestion at the wingback/left back position
Mertersacker: lost 2016-2017 season; perhaps sell to loosen up the CB congestion
Jenkinson: likely gone
Matt Macey: extend and loan out

I'd also look to unload Debuchy and Monreal to give someone like Gibbs/Holding/Gabriel more playing time. Find a new front line with money from Ozil/Alexis sales. Lucas Perez was also a big money acquisition who saw little league action.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-arsenal/vertragsende/verein/11/vertragsendeJahr/2017
 

BostonJack42

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
309

out of contract this summer:

Santi Cazarla (option for next season): time to let him go
Yaya Sanogo: keep and develop?

out of contract after 2017-2018:
Alexis Sanchez: sell at his peak value, don't want to pay high wages during ages 30+
Mesut Ozil: same as Alexis, sell; disappearing during big games was disconcerting
Aaron Ramsay: given his injury history, not sure anything is needed to be done this summer
Ox: he seemed to play well once they shifted to a 3-4-3; offer a new contract
Kieran Gibbs: not sure he has a place given the congestion at the wingback/left back position
Mertersacker: lost 2016-2017 season; perhaps sell to loosen up the CB congestion
Jenkinson: likely gone
Matt Macey: extend and loan out

I'd also look to unload Debuchy and Monreal to give someone like Gibbs/Holding/Gabriel more playing time. Find a new front line with money from Ozil/Alexis sales. Lucas Perez was also a big money acquisition who saw little league action.
Great post.
I am starting to come around on Alexis and Ozil leaving. I think my nightmare scenario is that we have to lose Alexis and we end up keeping Ozil.
I would keep Monreal - versatility as a CB and a LB has helped and I think he still has something left in the tank.
Gibbs: easily my least favorite Arsenal player. Either put him on a bus or throw him under one.
Don't quite understand why Debuchy is still on the squad.
Would not mind Lucas getting some more starts in league cup games. Let's see what he can do.
I would pick up Santi's option - when healthy he's the engine that makes this team run.
Ramsay (his great goal on Sunday not withstanding) needs to do a bit more for me before we resign him.
Resign Ox.
 

JimBoSox9

will you be my friend?
SoSH Member
Nov 1, 2005
16,664
Mid-surburbia
Santi is a bit of a glass cannon, and also not getting younger. That's OK for a more vanilla player, but the fact that pretty much no one player can replace what Cazorla does in the middle od the field, makes it incredibly difficult to establish a consistent system. That's shown up clearly in their form the last few years IMO.
 

miracleofmidre

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2009
275
Brooklyn NY
So Ospina starts, while Cech is on the bench (rumored to have been hurt, but if he's on the bench that isn't likely true). Wenger leaving himself open to criticism here, especially with the back line so injured.

Never a dull moment.
 

SocrManiac

Tommy Seebach’s mustache
SoSH Member
Apr 15, 2006
8,629
Somers, CT
Does any keeper feign injury more often than Ospina? We'll now get to see him limping around for awhile until he forgets he's "hurt."
 

mikeford

woolwich!
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2006
29,491
St John's, NL
Unreal match, honestly blew them off the pitch for 80% of the match

Monreal was goddamn masterful, Per too

Wenger had the boys flying, tremendous job
 

the1andonly3003

New Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,364
Chicago
Unreal match, honestly blew them off the pitch for 80% of the match

Monreal was goddamn masterful, Per too

Wenger had the boys flying, tremendous job
perhaps he told them he was done after today...they won one for Wenger!

we get a rematch in early August: Arsenal vs Chelsea at Wembley for the Community Shield!

so I guess Jose won the "extra hard" season thanks to Arsene...

Jose Mourinho: Community Shield, EFL Cup, Europa League
Antonio Conte: Premier League
Arsene Wenger: FA Cup

Jose wins 3-1-1 :jo
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,595
Pittsburgh, PA
Unreal match, honestly blew them off the pitch for 80% of the match

Monreal was goddamn masterful, Per too

Wenger had the boys flying, tremendous job
Yeah, that game could have easily been 4-0 or 5-1 and it wouldn't have flattered them. Best we saw them all season other than maybe the first PSG match.
 

lars10

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
11,564
Yeah, that game could have easily been 4-0 or 5-1 and it wouldn't have flattered them. Best we saw them all season other than maybe the first PSG match.
They've been flying the past few weeks.. of course they were playing a variety of not great teams (excluding Man City who they also looked good against), but the passing and spacing was better than it has been for months. Great to finish the season having won 9 of the last 10 fixtures. Damn you February and March! Come back Alexis!
 
Some interesting perspectives from Tony Adams in today's Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/may/29/tony-adams-arsenal-arsene-wenger-board

I know he's got a new book to sell, and the reader comments below the line are wholly disparaging of Adams, but quite a bit of this rings true to me.

That aside...what a joyous experience that was on Saturday. I saw another fan suggest that this game was right up there with the likes of the Champions League victories over Real Madrid and Inter Milan back in the day as Arsenal wins in Wenger's career which filled him with the most joy; for me, I'd even go back to the two wins over Man Utd in the 1997-98 season, as occasions where I really didn't believe Arsenal could win but they deservedly won with style, flair and plenty of grit. (BFG! BFG!) Saturday was probably the happiest I've felt as an Arsenal fan in a long time; it even made me stop worrying or caring about Wenger's fate for a while, which is nice.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,595
Pittsburgh, PA
Some interesting perspectives from Tony Adams in today's Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/may/29/tony-adams-arsenal-arsene-wenger-board

I know he's got a new book to sell, and the reader comments below the line are wholly disparaging of Adams, but quite a bit of this rings true to me.
Interesting.

We discuss the people whom Adams can talk to when afflicted with doubt. He shakes his head when asked if he has any idea to whom Wenger might turn when he suffers. “I wonder what’s really going on inside him. But when you meet him one-to-one he’s the most charming, sensitive human being.”
(...)
“He’s also got a weird relationship with money. He’s on £8m a year but Arsenal’s junior coaches are on 30 grand. Chelsea’s coaches are on £90,000. Take £7m, Arsène, and give them all a rise. It’s not like he’s using the money to throw lavish parties for his friends because he hasn’t got none. He’s only got a few guys in France. I feel a bit sorry for him.”
The bolded stood out to me more than the rest. He separated from his wife in 2015. He seems to lead a pretty monomaniacal life. Even Bill Belichick has other hobbies - lacrosse, military history, (probably) snuff films... - but if Wenger does, I've never heard it. He may just be kinda lonely, and Arsenal is all he has.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 2, 2006
22,335
Philadelphia
Giving Wenger a new contract is a shambolic decision by a club that is essentially rudderless at board and ownership level, lacking anybody - except Gazidis to some degree - with any ambition, vision, or footballing knowledge. The Kroenkes just want to turn a buck and a good part of the board are just posh Londoners who see association with a classy football club like the Arsenal as part of their high society repertoire. Wenger delivers what they want so its really no surprise that they retained him.

By the standards of top level clubs, Wenger is a mediocre game day manager and increasingly clueless in his "director of football" type duties. Is there a worse manager/front office combination among the biggest 10 or so clubs in the world? Maybe PSG? But at least they are trying to do something about it (just tried to hire Atleti's DoF, albeit unsuccessfully). Milan if one still counts them in the top ten.

What makes this decision so poor, however, isn't just Wenger's glaring weaknesses and limitations but also the location of the team in the success cycle. The window of opportunity for this squad to win the Premier League title was widest during the 15-16 season and has been narrowing since. Key players like Koscielny, Monreal, Cazorla, Giroud, and Cech are either chronically injured or in their decline phase. Meanwhile, primary competitors figure to strengthen through the transfer market (the Manchester clubs and Chelsea) or have relatively young squads just fully coming into their own (Spurs and Liverpool). There are really two defensible strategies for Arsenal in the abstract right now: Either retain Sanchez and Ozil, make a big splash of their own in the market (especially for a top CF), and give it one last go to compete for the title with this team. Or sell Sanchez and Ozil, invest the proceeds and other money into a lot of high end top young attacking talent (players like Patrick Schick, Kasper Dolberg, Thomas Lemar, Julian Brandt, Pablo Fornals, etc), and start building the foundation of a new team for the future.

I don't think Wenger has it in him to take either course of action just described. I will be surprised if Sanchez and Ozil both commit their futures to Wenger, having gone through the last three-to-four years of never once competing for the PL title or making any kind of run in Europe. And I will be even more surprised if, on top of retaining both, Wenger is willing to act boldly in the market and sign a truly top level CF. At the same time, I don't think he signed on for two more years just to fundamentally rebuild the team. So I expect him to keep the core of the team together, but perhaps without its best player or two, and to replace those players with ready made but inferior players - Riyad Mahrez I'm looking at you - that aren't good enough to give Arsenal the quality to compete for the big trophies but also lack the youth/ceiling to be cornerstones around which a future great Arsenal team could be built.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,595
Pittsburgh, PA
"Never once competing for the PL title"? They finished 2nd last year, their best result for a decade. If that's not "competing", which hair-curling epithets would you reserve for the other 18 teams in the league? They've been down 10, 12, 7, and 16 points from the champions since Ozil arrived. Other than Man City, they've been the most consistently competitive team in the league during that span. Failure to win a title is a bit like a 100+ win team in MLB failing to win the postseason tournament - getting in contention is a matter of skill and steadiness at the helm, but amid small margins, it's a bit of noise once you're up there.

It gets much, much worse than the Wenger-led Arsenal of today. I won't argue your proposals to build on the roster, but arguing for Arsene's defenestration (DeArsenestration?) would be a bit like saying in early 2014, "after losing back-to-back AFC Championship Games in 2012 and 2013, and not having won the title for a decade, Belichick's best days are clearly behind him - time to chuck him and see what new ideas, uh, someone else can bring".
 
I won't argue your proposals to build on the roster, but arguing for Arsene's defenestration (DeArsenestration?) would be a bit like saying in early 2014, "after losing back-to-back AFC Championship Games in 2012 and 2013, and not having won the title for a decade, Belichick's best days are clearly behind him - time to chuck him and see what new ideas, uh, someone else can bring".
It's really not like that.
 

Zososoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 30, 2009
9,201
South of North
"Never once competing for the PL title"? They finished 2nd last year, their best result for a decade. If that's not "competing", which hair-curling epithets would you reserve for the other 18 teams in the league? They've been down 10, 12, 7, and 16 points from the champions since Ozil arrived. Other than Man City, they've been the most consistently competitive team in the league during that span. Failure to win a title is a bit like a 100+ win team in MLB failing to win the postseason tournament - getting in contention is a matter of skill and steadiness at the helm, but amid small margins, it's a bit of noise once you're up there.

It gets much, much worse than the Wenger-led Arsenal of today. I won't argue your proposals to build on the roster, but arguing for Arsene's defenestration (DeArsenestration?) would be a bit like saying in early 2014, "after losing back-to-back AFC Championship Games in 2012 and 2013, and not having won the title for a decade, Belichick's best days are clearly behind him - time to chuck him and see what new ideas, uh, someone else can bring".
Ummmm, what? A 100+ win team DOES WIN the league. That's kind of the point. Cups are the competitions susceptible to noise, leagues are not. Arsenal is more like a team that wins ~90 games every year. Some years that gets them close to the playoffs (winning the pennant), but most years it leaves them a bit short. This year they won 85-88 games and the supporters are riled up, whereas the board is OK merely being in contention for the division, however unlikely it is that they win the thing.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,595
Pittsburgh, PA
I'm talking about the noise differences between a few points among the couple teams at the top, being more comparable to small-sample-size competitions than some sort of infallible evaluation of a team's abilities. The results are the results, but if you played last season 10 times among those teams and rosters, how many of them does Arsenal win? Way more than zero. Likewise the 2013-14 season, where they were leading through week 24. How unlucky do you have to be to have the talent to end up in the top 4 every year for 11 years straight, and somehow not finish first at least once? Some people are ascribing a fixed, almost moralistic quality to what is, at these margins, statistical noise.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 2, 2006
22,335
Philadelphia
"Never once competing for the PL title"? They finished 2nd last year, their best result for a decade. If that's not "competing", which hair-curling epithets would you reserve for the other 18 teams in the league? They've been down 10, 12, 7, and 16 points from the champions since Ozil arrived. Other than Man City, they've been the most consistently competitive team in the league during that span. Failure to win a title is a bit like a 100+ win team in MLB failing to win the postseason tournament - getting in contention is a matter of skill and steadiness at the helm, but amid small margins, it's a bit of noise once you're up there.
By competing for the title I mean having a legitimate, even if relatively small, shot at winning the title as the run-in phase (last seven or eight matches or so) of the season arrives. Arsenal haven't been in that position since 07-08. It is nothing like winning 100 games and then losing in the playoffs due to variance. Its much more like being out of playoff contention by Labor Day every year and then often having a good last couple weeks to end up winning 88-90 games, as Zososoxfan also notes.

It gets much, much worse than the Wenger-led Arsenal of today.
This is the most tired claim in the whole Wenger debate. It is true almost by definition and nobody who wants Wenger out would really argue otherwise. But it also gets much, much better than Wenger as Club Dictator and no other club of comparable size would keep him given the track record of the last ten years.

I won't argue your proposals to build on the roster, but arguing for Arsene's defenestration (DeArsenestration?) would be a bit like saying in early 2014, "after losing back-to-back AFC Championship Games in 2012 and 2013, and not having won the title for a decade, Belichick's best days are clearly behind him - time to chuck him and see what new ideas, uh, someone else can bring".
That analogy is terrible for about a thousand reasons but I'll give you two. First, Belichick making a SB and back-to-back AFC Championship games from 2011-2013 put him much closer to winning his sport's major trophy than anything Wenger has done for about a decade . The much closer analogy would be a manager getting just pipped to a league title and losing a CL final in the previous couple years. Second, process matters. Belichick was widely seen as an elite in game coach and a top level general manager even when he wasn't winning Super Bowls. Wenger is more like Bill Parcells with the Cowboys or Mike Shanahan with the Redskins, not the worst head coach in the league by any stretch but no longer a top level guy in a league that had changed a lot over time and seen the rise of a number of younger, harder working, and more creative competitors.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,595
Pittsburgh, PA
Hold on there, is the FA Cup a major trophy? Or are we only going to define "winning things worth winning" in such a way that bolsters our argument?

FA Cup wins this century:
Liverpool: 2
Chelsea: 3
Man United: 2
Man City: 1
Spurs: 0
Everton: 0
Non-megaclubs: 2
Arsenal: SIX, and 3 of the last 4

Does Wenger's failure of creativity or process only kick in when he's in Europe or trying to maintain health across a league season? Because that's a huge hole in your "it could be much, much better" argument, and seems kinda disingenuous to omit. In a league with six megaclubs rather than 1 (Germany) or 2 (Spain), nobody is ever going to have the run of dominance of a Barca, Real or Bayern, and margins between them are going to be small - certainly not now that United's revenue advantage has been whittled away by its English competitors.

I'll get to the rest when I have more time.
 

coremiller

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,846
The late-season run makes it a lot harder to evaluate Arsenal's season. 5th place is their worst finish under Wenger, but they finished with 75 points and a +33 GD, which is not really any better or worse than they've been in any of the last ten years, and four points better than their 2nd-place finish last year. The difference this year was that 1) the quality of the rest of the top 6 jumped enormously, and 2) their underlying performance metrics (e.g. xGD) declined significantly. They were not nearly as good this year, and only a superhuman season from Sanchez (24G, 10A) covered up a lot of the decline. If Sanchez leaves they could be really screwed -- where are the goals going to come from?

As MMS points out, Arsenal's big problem is that this team was built to peak the last two years, but didn't get over the hump, and it doesn't look like they have a plan for what to do next. The original plan, I think, was that the once-young, now-prime-age British talent (Walcott, Ramsey, Ox, Wilshere, Gibbs, etc.) was going to develop and carry the team forward, but none of those guys panned out as anything more than useful squad players for a side that wants to compete for titles. Arsene's biggest failure the last several years was probably to not cut bait with that development plan sooner and sell those players at the peak of their value. Part of the tolerance for not competing for the title in the 2009-13 period was that the club was building something for the future. That is no longer the case.

Arsenal can't afford to compete on transfers with Man U/City/Chelsea, which means to build a team they need to find budget diamonds and/or develop internally. And the internal development pipeline has dried up. The knock-on effect of their weaker development program has been very little in incoming transfer revenue. Wenger has failed to turn over the bottom half of his squad to generate revenue that could be used to buy more promising players. Arsenal's combined income from player sales the last two seasons is only 11m; the last four seasons combined is only 45m. For comparison, Spurs' transfer revenue the last two years is 119m and the last four years is 272m. The four-year number is boosted by the Bale transfer, but Spurs have also sold a bunch of mediocre players who aren't good enough to play for them for real money (they got 51m combined for Ryan Mason, Nacer Chadli, Andros Townsend, and Paulinho). Liverpool have done something similar, getting 28m last year for spare parts Jordan Ibe and Joe Allen, which allowed them to buy a guy like Wijnaldum who fits their team much better.

If Arsenal can hold onto Sanchez, Ozil, and Bellerin AND sign 2-3 more legit starters (which will require a net spend of >60m), they could compete for the title next year with some breaks, but they would probably be something like joint 4th favorites heading into the season even under that best-case scenario. If they lose Sanchez and Ozil and don't buy superstars to replace them, they will probably struggle to compete for a CL spot.

A year ago I thought Wenger-out was silly, because they probably had the best team in 2015-16 and the team appeared to be peaking, and it was worth giving Wenger one more shot at the title. Last summer, I picked them to win the title this season. But I think this season made clear that Wenger has missed his chance and is getting left behind by the more progressive clubs. He's never fully figured out how to cope with the new hyper-aggressive pressing tactics that Spurs, Liverpool, and City use. The lack of any discernible long-term strategic plan is the reason I think Arsenal should be moving on from Wenger.
 

fletcherpost

sosh's feckin' poet laureate
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,128
Glasgow, Scotland
This is the most tired claim in the whole Wenger debate. It is true almost by definition and nobody who wants Wenger out would really argue otherwise. But it also gets much, much better than Wenger as Club Dictator and no other club of comparable size would keep him given the track record of the last ten years.
This is the crux for me. Wenger is the Dario Gradi of the EPL. (I'm just talking about football matters and nothering else to do with Gradi BTW.)

Sure, Arsenal can compete, on any given day, with any team. But can they, and when did they last mount a serious challenge that didn't fade away with a month or more left in the season.

When they pipped Spurs to second when Leicester won it, no one was fooled. Were they?
 

fletcherpost

sosh's feckin' poet laureate
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,128
Glasgow, Scotland
Hold on there, is the FA Cup a major trophy? Or are we only going to define "winning things worth winning" in such a way that bolsters our argument?

FA Cup wins this century:
Liverpool: 2
Chelsea: 3
Man United: 2
Man City: 1
Spurs: 0
Everton: 0
Non-megaclubs: 2
Arsenal: SIX, and 3 of the last 4

Does Wenger's failure of creativity or process only kick in when he's in Europe or trying to maintain health across a league season? Because that's a huge hole in your "it could be much, much better" argument, and seems kinda disingenuous to omit. In a league with six megaclubs rather than 1 (Germany) or 2 (Spain), nobody is ever going to have the run of dominance of a Barca, Real or Bayern, and margins between them are going to be small - certainly not now that United's revenue advantage has been whittled away by its English competitors.

I'll get to the rest when I have more time.
Reading your guff has made me want to wade in on the main board. I write well. I think i can use my superior vocabulary and the experience gained in debating societies around the South Glasgow Region to great effect.

No one will know I haven;t a fuckin scooby what I'm talking about.

No offence mate but once you get on to talking about the FA Cup wins, when everyone else knows the debate rests on EPL and CL results - it's hard to take you seriously.
 

the1andonly3003

New Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,364
Chicago
Reading your guff has made me want to wade in on the main board. I write well. I think i can use my superior vocabulary and the experience gained in debating societies around the South Glasgow Region to great effect.

No one will know I haven;t a fuckin scooby what I'm talking about.

No offence mate but once you get on to talking about the FA Cup wins, when everyone else knows the debate rests on EPL and CL results - it's hard to take you seriously.
the last time a PL team won the Champions League was Chelsea in 2011-2012...that same team finished 6th in the league

unless an EPL team reaches the limits of FFP rules to build a deep team that runs the table in both league and European play, I think it'll be a long time before we see an English team win a league/European double
 
Hold on there, is the FA Cup a major trophy? Or are we only going to define "winning things worth winning" in such a way that bolsters our argument?
Apart from everything MMS and others have already said, the FA Cup is exactly like the MLB playoffs - it's a lottery and a crapshoot - except that everyone in English football qualifies for the playoffs. Using this logic doesn't help the below argument - it does exactly the opposite:
Failure to win a title is a bit like a 100+ win team in MLB failing to win the postseason tournament - getting in contention is a matter of skill and steadiness at the helm, but amid small margins, it's a bit of noise once you're up there.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 2, 2006
22,335
Philadelphia
Hold on there, is the FA Cup a major trophy? Or are we only going to define "winning things worth winning" in such a way that bolsters our argument?

FA Cup wins this century:
Liverpool: 2
Chelsea: 3
Man United: 2
Man City: 1
Spurs: 0
Everton: 0
Non-megaclubs: 2
Arsenal: SIX, and 3 of the last 4

Does Wenger's failure of creativity or process only kick in when he's in Europe or trying to maintain health across a league season? Because that's a huge hole in your "it could be much, much better" argument, and seems kinda disingenuous to omit. In a league with six megaclubs rather than 1 (Germany) or 2 (Spain), nobody is ever going to have the run of dominance of a Barca, Real or Bayern, and margins between them are going to be small - certainly not now that United's revenue advantage has been whittled away by its English competitors.

I'll get to the rest when I have more time.
I love the FA Cup but I don't really consider it a major trophy. Its nowhere close to as prestigious as winning the league, much less the Champions League, and in my view less prestigious than winning the Europa. The same is basically true for other domestic cups like the Copa del Rey.

Teams regularly treat early round FA Cup ties as opportunities to rotate, which tells you all you need to know about its perceived value vis-a-vis league play. Heck, Chelsea just started an FA Cup semi-final with its two best attackers on the bench.
 

hube

New Member
Apr 4, 2010
224
I said it earlier in the thread - watching Wenger now is like watching Gibbs or Shula late in their careers. He's built up enough goodwill not to fire outright, but it's clear the game has passed him by. The things he brought to the table 20 years ago have long been surpassed and improved upon. It's kind of sad, and I don't see any way things get better over the next two years. Alexis and Ozil are gone, if not this summer then next, and the team will struggle even harder to get back to the CL.

The last several years (a decade?) have been a massive underachievement - they should have won the league at least twice since the last PL trophy. FA Cups are nice, but I don't know that they're on the same level as the league or CL. I won't pretend they should have won a CL since the trip to the final in 06 (which they should have won, but we'll leave that for another time), but their performances have been mostly poor.

The story in both the league and group CL stages is the same - underprepared and overtrained, never taking supposed lesser opponents seriously, and an inability to adjust in-game. That's all down to the manager. In addition, they've failed to fill major holes over several seasons - first at GK, then central defense, now in midfield and at striker (I'll concede the latter is extremely difficult).

It's probably more difficult to win the PL than any other league in Europe. The only manager to adapt over several eras - and it kills me to admit this - is Fergie. I'll always appreciate what Arsene did, but he should have retired at least two years ago.
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,714
@coremiller sums it all up nicely. I'll only add that because of Wenger's stature at the club, he hasn't had to publicly articulate a long term plan or even a 2 year plan to justify his new contract. As a Liverpool fan, one of the most exciting parts right now is watching Klopp go about the business of realizing the plans and promises he's made. He's given the club positive momentum again, and supporters couldn't be more thrilled.

But Wenger brings none of this for Arsenal anymore. The youth pipeline is dry. Sanchez is packing his bags. Ozil seems to be biding his time. Bellerin is waiting anxiously by the phone for Barca to call. And tatically, is 3 at the back the way forward? Or is it something else?

Too many questions, and no one to force Wenger to provide the answers. It's a shame that he is muddying his reputation.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

RIP Dernell
SoSH Member
Mar 24, 2008
7,180
Would you rather win the FA Cup and finish 5th or finish 4th (or finish 6th, but win the Europa League)?

The answer to that question tells you everything you need to know about Wenger's 6 FA Cup titles.