Playoff Game Thread

Kliq

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Conley might end up being the greatest player to never make the All-Star team.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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So does anyone still think Demar DeRozan isn't a very good player?
He is very good but some metrics don't value him highly and his midrange and rim attacking skills are, like feathered hair, not in style like they were many years ago.

More importantly, we have a DeRozanDebate(tm) every few months in this forum. There are always going to be folks who think he is is not very good. I don't agree with them but I get their line of thinking.
 

Kliq

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The PG position is just so stacked right now; it is crazy to think that in the upcoming draft there are 3-5 more franchise PGs coming into the league.

Let's play a game:

Player A: 27--6-5 per game, 44/37/89 shooting, 7.7 3FGA per game, 7.3 FTA per game, 24.1 PER, 58 percent true shooting percentage.

Player B: 25-7-4 per game, 44/33/85 shooting, 4.8 3FGA per game, 6.9 FTA per game, 23.5 PER, 55 percent true shooting percentage

Pretty comparable seasons, Player A has a slight edge in efficiency but otherwise extremely similar.

Player A was Damian Lillard's season this year; a year he did not make the All-Star game and will not make All-NBA. Player B was Derrick Rose's MVP year.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Speaking of defense, I know I shouldn't listen to the nonsense that Stephen A. and Kellerman spew — and I guess this may fall under me getting cranky at someone side-eyeing the Warriors — but I choked on my coffee his morning when they both agreed that John Wall was the best PG in the playoffs, and that he was better than Curry because he was much better on defense.

Why is Wall better on defense than Curry again?

Because Curry has crushed him by defensive RPM this season (#13 to #55 among PGs); and beat him the season before (#6 to #14), and the season before (#2 to #4)?
Because Curry is a better defensive rebounder?
Because Curry gets more steals?
Because Curry is key part of a consistently elite defense (#2 this season) and Wall is a key part of a consistently crappy one (#20)?
Because Curry has totally destroyed Wall in their head-to-head matchups? (10-2 record, 30.3 pts per 36 on .693 true shooting to Wall's 16.9 pts on .486 true shooting)

Or is it more because, as Draymond Green recently noted, Curry has light skin and comes from a good family?
 

BigSoxFan

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Speaking of defense, I know I shouldn't listen to the nonsense that Stephen A. and Kellerman spew — and I guess this may fall under me getting cranky at someone side-eyeing the Warriors — but I choked on my coffee his morning when they both agreed that John Wall was the best PG in the playoffs, and that he was better than Curry because he was much better on defense.

Why is Wall better on defense than Curry again?

Because Curry has crushed him by defensive RPM this season (#13 to #55 among PGs); and beat him the season before (#6 to #14), and the season before (#2 to #4)?
Because Curry is a better defensive rebounder?
Because Curry gets more steals?
Because Curry is key part of a consistently elite defense (#2 this season) and Wall is a key part of a consistently crappy one (#20)?
Because Curry has totally destroyed Wall in their head-to-head matchups? (10-2 record, 30.3 pts per 36 on .693 true shooting to Wall's 16.9 pts on .486 true shooting)

Or is it more because, as Draymond Green recently noted, Curry has light skin and comes from a good family?
You seem to take every perceived slight against a Warrior personally...
 

smastroyin

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Without hearing it in context, I would guess they are just overly influenced by how well Lillard played while ignoring what Schroeder is doing against Wall.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Haha, maybe a little personally, but more just as a slight against rational, evidence-based analysis.

I guess if you're being charitable you could say that it's just a scouting-based observation, but I think there's almost zero chance Kellerman or Smith understand the two teams' defensive schemes well enough, or have observed the players closely and extensively enough on the defensive end to make such a bold claim. Defensive metrics like DRPM are noisy and unreliable, so people tend to ignore them. But then we're left with a self-perpetuating tautology like "screw all the numbers, we know Wall is a much better defender than Curry, because people like us say he's the much better defender."

I know my posting here doesn't change any of that, but I think one of the great things about sites like SoSH is that they question ESPN-style common wisdom that isn't actually grounded in evidence.
 

BigSoxFan

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Haha, maybe a little personally, but more just as a slight against rational, evidence-based analysis.

I guess if you're being charitable you could say that it's just a scouting-based observation, but I think there's almost zero chance Kellerman or Smith understand the two teams' defensive schemes well enough, or have observed the players closely and extensively enough on the defensive end to make such a bold claim. Defensive metrics like DRPM are noisy and unreliable, so people tend to ignore them. But then we're left with a self-perpetuating tautology like "screw all the numbers, we know Wall is a much better defender than Curry, because people like us say he's the much better defender."

I know my posting here doesn't change any of that, but I think one of the great things about sites like SoSH is that they question ESPN-style common wisdom that isn't actually grounded in evidence.
Honestly, I don't disagree with most of your opinions. I think the shooter label impacts the perception of Curry's other skills more than anything else. Some people still view him as the frail shooter that came into the league in 2009.
 

ElUno20

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Honestly, I don't disagree with most of your opinions. I think the shooter label impacts the perception of Curry's other skills more than anything else. Some people still view him as the frail shooter that came into the league in 2009.
I'd say quite the opposite. He is like the prime Shaq of 3pt shooting and it leads to him (rightfully so in today's game) being put on the NBA Mt. Rushmore.
 

Sam Ray Not

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I think the shooter label impacts the perception of Curry's other skills more than anything else. Some people still view him as the frail shooter that came into the league in 2009.
Yeah, I'm sure that's a big part of it. And I don't mean to diminish the awesomeness of John Wall. But as Kliq notes, this is an insanely stacked era for PGs, which is what makes Kellerman's confident claim that Wall is the clear best among them so silly. The default assumption should be that he's not in the class of Curry, Harden, Westbrook and CP3, who by both advanced metrics and general acclaim are Top 5-8 NBA players. Then you get to the next tier of PGs — Conley, Lillard, IT, Lowry, Wall, Irving — and if you want to advocate for Wall towards the top of that tier, well, fine.

On a related note, I kinda feel like the Wizards, while a dynamic and cool young team, seem to talk about themselves and carry themselves like they're several notches above what they've ever actually achieved; and Kellerman and Stephen A's comments about Wall feed in that. Would love to see the Cs (or even the Hawks!) take them down a peg.
 
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DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Yeah, I'm sure that's a big part of it. And I don't mean to diminish the awesomeness of John Wall. But as Kliq notes, this is an insanely stacked era for PGs, which is what makes Kellerman's confident claim that Wall is the clear best among them so silly. The default assumption should be that he's not in the class of Curry, Harden, Westbrook and CP3, who by both advanced metrics and general acclaim are Top 5-8 NBA players. Then you get to the next tier of PGs — Conley, Lillard, IT, Lowry, Wall, Irving — and if you want to advocate for Wall towards the top of that tier, well, fine.

On related note, I kinda feel like the Wizards, while a dynamic and cool young team, seem to talk about themselves and carry themselves like they're several notches above what they've ever actually achieved; and Kellerman and Stephen A's comments about Wall feed in that. Would love to see the Cs (or even the Hawks!) take them down a peg.
Brother, it's Max Kellerman. He and SAS just started following the NBA two weeks ago. Their "takes" are no more informed and actually may be less so than all of our friends who just started following basketball because playoffs.

In other news, the guy who appears to have actually earned even more respect from actual NBA pundits is Kawhi. He would be the no-doubt MVP if the voting were held today.

My guess is current voting would look like this:

Kawhi
LeBron
Harden
Curry
Westbrook

I would argue that LeBron should win it and that Curry should be higher than Harden but I suspect most voters would disagree based on discounting James because he has been doing it for so long and Curry for being on a super team.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Yeah, I'm sure that's a big part of it. And I don't mean to diminish the awesomeness of John Wall. But as Kliq notes, this is an insanely stacked era for PGs, which is what makes Kellerman's confident claim that Wall is the clear best among them so silly. The default assumption should be that he's not in the class of Curry, Harden, Westbrook and CP3, who by both advanced metrics and general acclaim are Top 5-8 NBA players. Then you get to the next tier of PGs — Conley, Lillard, IT, Lowry, Wall, Irving — and if you want to advocate for Wall towards the top of that tier, well, fine.

On a related note, I kinda feel like the Wizards, while a dynamic and cool young team, seem to talk about themselves and carry themselves like they're several notches above what they've ever actually achieved; and Kellerman and Stephen A's comments about Wall feed in that. Would love to see the Cs (or even the Hawks!) take them down a peg.
Funny I heard someone on the radio make this same argument - that John Wall is so good he's a legitimate MVP candidate (given what he means to his team) but he may not be a top 5 PG.

Kind of crazy.

But remember - this being an era of PGs isn't necessarily because PGs are better but because of the rule changes that make people like IT and Lillard so valuable. It's kind of insane that a shot from 23 feet is 1.5x any regular shot and 3X a free throw.

BTW, John Wall is finally healthy this year so that explains a lot about his better playing year. SI had a good article on him this week: https://www.si.com/nba/2017/04/26/john-wall-washington-wizards-nba-playoffs-scott-brooks
 

ElUno20

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Brother, it's Max Kellerman. He and SAS just started following the NBA two weeks ago. Their "takes" are no more informed and actually may be less so than all of our friends who just started following basketball because playoffs.

In other news, the guy who appears to have actually earned even more respect from actual NBA pundits is Kawhi. He would be the no-doubt MVP if the voting were held today.

My guess is current voting would look like this:

Kawhi
LeBron
Harden
Curry
Westbrook

I would argue that LeBron should win it and that Curry should be higher than Harden but I suspect most voters would disagree based on discounting James because he has been doing it for so long and Curry for being on a super team.
I find them both annoying but claiming the two of them casually follow basketball is just as dumb as the stuff they spew for click bait daily. They are both huge bball fans.

The real meat of it is simple. For a large segment of NBA fans, Steph isn't gritty/real enough. Regardless of whatever analytics and actual accomplishments there are, he'll never win that group over.
 

Kliq

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It's hard for me to believe Steph is anything more than an average defender when he is almost always the worst defender on the court for his team.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I find them both annoying but claiming the two of them casually follow basketball is just as dumb as the stuff they spew for click bait daily. They are both huge bball fans.

The real meat of it is simple. For a large segment of NBA fans, Steph isn't gritty/real enough. Regardless of whatever analytics and actual accomplishments there are, he'll never win that group over.
They claim to be huge basketball fans but they aren't in the weeds looking at the stats beyond what they can read in the box scores. They aren't paid for analysis - they are paid for takes.

In the meantime, your team is looking tough as hell tonight. Paul Pierce's NBA career is on the line and the Clippers are all about keeping it alive.
 

ElUno20

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Great effort tonight. Not sure if they showed him on the ESPN broadcast but the local broadcast has shown balmer and he is losing his mind.
 

ElUno20

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Took Austin a game to knock the rust off but he was huge tonight. Gave Paul some much needed help
 

ElUno20

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The Jazz have a better chance of not getting smoked by 40 a game against the Warriors but I don't give a shit. I hope CP is special once again today
 

Fishy1

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CP needs some help. Too much to shoulder on his own
I don't know. He seems to score every time he has the ball. Rivers should be spot-up shooting and that's it. He's a disaster.

EDIT: They just seem weirdly undisciplined on offense for a team that's got the point god. I don't know how you can let Rivers dribble away multiple possessions in a row without pulling him from the game -- unless you're his Dad, of course.
 

ElUno20

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I don't know. He seems to score every time he has the ball. Rivers should be spot-up shooting and that's it. He's a disaster.

EDIT: They just seem weirdly undisciplined on offense for a team that's got the point god. I don't know how you can let Rivers dribble away multiple possessions in a row without pulling him from the game -- unless you're his Dad, of course.

While CP can get what he wants, he has to save something for the final stretch. So it'll be rivers or Crawford trying to get "hot"
 

CreedBratton

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I like jazz more than clips but wanted LA to win to help make it easier for Hayward to head to Boston
 

Kliq

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The numbers suggest Chris Paul is one of the best PGs ever. If you watch him and all of the things he does on the court you would tend to agree. Yet, his team always seems to flame out in the playoffs? Injuries, coaching issues, and other players underperforming are always a factor, but when does CP3 begin getting some of the blame. As others have stated above, for a guy that controls the game with an iron grip, their offense has been all over the place.
 

Kliq

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The Clippers are down by a ton and Utah's big men have been called for every touch foul.