Celtics Trade Deadline Game Thread

joe dokes

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I think there is great hesitation to move Crowder in a deal. The oldest guy on this team is Gerald freakin' Green. I sense that Crowder has that Brandon Bass vibe in the locker room, will play any position, 40 minutes or 10, and is seen as a valuable bridge between whatever star they were talking about and the rest of the team. So including him in a deal seems really unlikely. And Smart seems like he could be 80% of Fat Lever. I dont see Ainge moving him either. In that way, if some trade partner is looking for good-ish now players, that really only leaves Bradley. I'm not being critical, but I think it limits the team's trading ability.
 

joe dokes

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I think there is great hesitation to move Crowder in a deal. The oldest guy on this team is Gerald freakin' Green. I sense that Crowder has that Brandon Bass vibe in the locker room, will play any position, 40 minutes or 10, and is seen as a valuable bridge between whatever star they were talking about and the rest of the team. So including him in a deal seems really unlikely. And Smart seems like he could be 80% of Fat Lever. I dont see Ainge moving him either. In that way, if some trade partner is looking for good-ish now players, that really only leaves Bradley. I'm not being critical, but I think it limits the team's trading ability.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I think there is great hesitation to move Crowder in a deal. The oldest guy on this team is Gerald freakin' Green. I sense that Crowder has that Brandon Bass vibe in the locker room, will play any position, 40 minutes or 10, and is seen as a valuable bridge between whatever star they were talking about and the rest of the team. So including him in a deal seems really unlikely. And Smart seems like he could be 80% of Fat Lever. I dont see Ainge moving him either. In that way, if some trade partner is looking for good-ish now players, that really only leaves Bradley. I'm not being critical, but I think it limits the team's trading ability.
Also his contract is absurdly valuable in this environment. You basically can't get good players for anything close to what he's getting paid.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think there is great hesitation to move Crowder in a deal. The oldest guy on this team is Gerald freakin' Green. I sense that Crowder has that Brandon Bass vibe in the locker room, will play any position, 40 minutes or 10, and is seen as a valuable bridge between whatever star they were talking about and the rest of the team. So including him in a deal seems really unlikely. And Smart seems like he could be 80% of Fat Lever. I dont see Ainge moving him either. In that way, if some trade partner is looking for good-ish now players, that really only leaves Bradley. I'm not being critical, but I think it limits the team's trading ability.
I don't think it has anything to do with the locker room, it's that he's really good, still improving, exactly what they want in their system and has maybe the best non-rookie scale deal in the entire league. There is plenty of vet leadership in the form of Horford, Bradley, etc. Plus any star that comes in is going to be the guy in that lockerroom anyway.

I also think part of it is that moving Crowder in-season is tough because then you aren't filling as many holes as you would, you still are relying on the Thomas/Bradley backcourt too much which really struggles due to size. If they had made a trade today Avery was the better fit to move out in terms of maximizing this season. in the offseason I still think the guy to move is Bradley (or IT but he's been crazy good and that's a tough move to sell the fanbase).
 

Ed Hillel

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For anyone upset today, just remember that Michael Jordan turned down the Nets 2017 pick, as well as 3 other first round picks from the Celtics, in order to draft Frank Kaminsky.
 

BigSoxFan

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For anyone upset today, just remember that Michael Jordan turned down the Nets 2017 pick, as well as 3 other first round picks from the Celtics, in order to draft Frank Kaminsky.
Ainge was ready to mortgage the future for Justise Winslow. Now I feel worse!
 

bowiac

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How is it that in one breath his one year shooting percentage isn't salient but in the other his TS% makes him significantly better? What makes up for the difference that isn't represented in FG%? And Brown's BLK% is 1.3 compared to 1.1% for Butler in that year. Is there a number that represents the relationship between blocks and steals on defense?
I was saying that his improvement elsewhere made up for the changes in his shooting. Butler only got better after his second year, even if he turned out not to be a 38% guy from 3.

The difference between TS% and FG% is that TS% include the impact of threes, and free throws.

BPM is the best "all-in-one" box score stat widely available, but it includes more than just STL% and BLK%. As a rule though, steals are more important than blocks.

Basically, what makes you think Brown can't be as good as Butler besides that obviously Brown has to hit 80% FT to ever make the leap to Butler's level?
I think it's possible Brown can be as good as Butler, but it's a longshot I'd say. That's just cause Butler is really good though, not anything against Brown. He's had a very promising rookie year all-in-all, but it hasn't been so good that he's clearly on some kind of star trajectory.
 

Koufax

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Brian Scalabrine is saying that the Celtics are two players away from being able to challenge Cleveland, and that people underestimate how large the gap is between the Celtics and the Cavs.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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For anyone upset today, just remember that Michael Jordan turned down the Nets 2017 pick, as well as 3 other first round picks from the Celtics, in order to draft Frank Kaminsky.
I thought the final verdict was that while DA offered a boat load of picks, the Nets pick wasn't one of them. Am I remembering incorrectly?
 

bowiac

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Brian Scalabrine is saying that the Celtics are two players away from being able to challenge Cleveland, and that people underestimate how large the gap is between the Celtics and the Cavs.
I think that's a mostly defensible position. Cleveland only lost two games on their way to the NBA finals last year, beat the best regular season team ever, and swept the team that eliminated the Celtics. The Celtics look better this year, but the gap between them was pretty big to start.
 

Cellar-Door

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Brian Scalabrine is saying that the Celtics are two players away from being able to challenge Cleveland, and that people underestimate how large the gap is between the Celtics and the Cavs.
I think it's 2, but not 2 stars. They need 1 star and one more solid big. The hope is that the big is already coming in the form of Zizic to be a poor man's Steven Adams. Horford's addition has been sneaky huge, he makes the offense run so much better.
 

mcpickl

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To the people freaking out that Ainge couldn't land a superstar today, I'd say if your plan is to trade for a really good player, and sign another one in free agency to complete a championship contending team, it's much easier to do it by signing the FA first before making the trade.

If the Celtics do nothing besides letting their expirings/Zeller walk this summer, they'll have 25M to spend under the cap. If they need to get max cap space, they could let Olynyk walk.

If they were able to trade for Butler/George today, they wouldn't have as much cap space unless they did a Mike Ortiz Jr. type deal and moved 3 of Crowder, Bradley, Smart, and Jaylen in the deal.

This summer will have to be the reckoning, since IT will have to get paid the following summer. The order of operation will be tricky if the trade involves the 2017 pick, much like the Love/Wiggins deal, but the FA signing will almost surely have to come first if that's the plan.
 

BigSoxFan

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Brian Scalabrine is saying that the Celtics are two players away from being able to challenge Cleveland, and that people underestimate how large the gap is between the Celtics and the Cavs.
This year maybe but the gap is going to continue to narrow. LeBron turns 33 in a December and Kyrie/Love are always injury risks. A core of IT/Butler/Horford/Crowder/Smart/Olynyk/Zizic/Rozier is pretty solid and you still would have had Nets 2018 and the Memphis, Celtics, Clips picks to dangle or use for reinforcements as well as the rights to Yabusele.

Now that we've stood pat, there the possibilities are basically endless. If Jaylen Brown shows some real growth next year and we nab a top FA this year, today becomes one of those Winslow "phew!" moments.
 

Koufax

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I'm all in on that plan, which means of course that Danny will pull off a blockbuster on draft night upsetting all these carefully laid plans. I'm also looking forward to yabusele, and don't understand why folks have written him off as a future Celtic.
 

DJnVa

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I think just about every person here understands that the Cavs aren't in the Celtics league.

Even the most optimistic posters think that something ridiculous would have to happen for the Celtics to get by them---Irving hurt, LBJ twisting ankle, etc.

But I certainly hope we get that matchup in the ECF.
 

Koufax

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I think that Scalabrine was talking about the radio jockeys who are all over Danny for not making a trade, sounding off about how they had a chance to challenge the Cavs this year (if only LeBron would break a leg) and that the Celts were wrong to keep their powder dry for the future when that path might take 3 or 4 years to bear fruit. My take is that it could be a very entertaining 3 or 4 years -- and beyond.
 

BigSoxFan

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I think that Scalabrine was talking about the radio jockeys who are all over Danny for not making a trade, sounding off about how they had a chance to challenge the Cavs this year (if only LeBron would break a leg) and that the Celts were wrong to keep their powder dry for the future when that path might take 3 or 4 years to bear fruit. My take is that it could be a very entertaining 3 or 4 years -- and beyond.
They both could be right. Clearly, the Celtics' future is very bright with all the picks and young talent but there's also a chance that we could miss an opportunity. Love and Kyrie aren't exactly Cal Ripken.

As for the Warriors if it got that far, well, who had Houston beating LA in 1986? Shit happens. The Warriors are probably on their way to a Spurs-like run so this is a problem we'll eventually have to deal with.
 

leetinsley38

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I think that Scalabrine was talking about the radio jockeys who are all over Danny for not making a trade, sounding off about how they had a chance to challenge the Cavs this year (if only LeBron would break a leg) and that the Celts were wrong to keep their powder dry for the future when that path might take 3 or 4 years to bear fruit. My take is that it could be a very entertaining 3 or 4 years -- and beyond.
Yeah, the talking heads make it seem like Danny had to cash in all his chips right now, or rebuild and wait 3-4 years for everyone to develop. Obviously that's an oversimplification. We may only have to wait 4 months exactly in fact - June 23rd, the day of the draft. That's when Danny has made his best deals in the past (#5 for Ray which set up the KG domino; KG/PP for 4 Brooklyn picks, etc). The price of Butler/George will be less. The value of the picks will be more solid - we'll know the draft order, and the hype from the scouts and everyone will fall in love with these prospects and pump up those values.
Danny's best attribute is his patience. Some GM is going to mess up. A Magic type that just got on the job and wants to make a splash; a shortsighted GM on the hot seat, etc.
DA is playing the long game and we are having our cake and eating it too in the meantime
 

Koufax

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A short while ago Kevin McHale was part of the broadcast team for a Celtics game. He was asked whether the Celtics should make a move for Butler at the trade deadline. He said no, because there are better deals to be had on or around draft day.
 

biff_hardbody

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I was saying that his improvement elsewhere made up for the changes in his shooting. Butler only got better after his second year, even if he turned out not to be a 38% guy from 3.

The difference between TS% and FG% is that TS% include the impact of threes, and free throws.

BPM is the best "all-in-one" box score stat widely available, but it includes more than just STL% and BLK%. As a rule though, steals are more important than blocks.


I think it's possible Brown can be as good as Butler, but it's a longshot I'd say. That's just cause Butler is really good though, not anything against Brown. He's had a very promising rookie year all-in-all, but it hasn't been so good that he's clearly on some kind of star trajectory.
I appreciate the dialogue. Ultimately I agree that Butler's 2nd year is, without question, better than Brown this year. If that difference is a few steals and FT% I'm supremely optimistic, as shooting free throws seems like a skill that should be able to be improved. And Brown is 2 years younger. Lots to look forward to.
 

Marbleheader

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Both seemed to say the plan is to use the draft picks. Looking for two top players. If they can get one via trade, they'll do it, but they're not going to panic and make a bad deal for the sake of making one.
 

Koufax

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The price of Butler/George will be less. The value of the picks will be more solid - we'll know the draft order, and the hype from the scouts and everyone will fall in love with these prospects and pump up those values.
The hype part is important. Until the trading deadline, the hype was all about Butler and George. Around draft day, the hype will be all about these fantastic 18 & 19 year olds. Market values will change.
 

moondog80

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In a world where the Cs sign Gordon Hayward this offseason, who says no to a Derrick Favors/Avery Bradley trade?
 

sox311

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That's what she said.
In a world where the Cs sign Gordon Hayward this offseason, who says no to a Derrick Favors/Avery Bradley trade?
I was about to question Favors health, then I remembered that we would also have to question Avery's health. I am just not sure that Danny, Brad, and management are too worried about the rebounding that Favors presumably would bring and would far greater value a big to space the floor, like Kelly.
 

BigSoxFan

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The Hayward decision is going to be huge for this team, assuming we are in the running. If you add him and Fultz to this team, Ainge will be able to dangle Nets 2018/Bradley/Crowder for another impact frontcourt player if he so chooses.
 

moondog80

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I was about to question Favors health, then I remembered that we would also have to question Avery's health. I am just not sure that Danny, Brad, and management are too worried about the rebounding that Favors presumably would bring and would far greater value a big to space the floor, like Kelly.
Are we sure the Cs will match any offers on Okynyk? To me he seems like a guy some team like Brooklyn will throw 70 mil over 4 years at, which could leave us quite thin up front since Zeller, Amir and Jerebko are also potentially gone. Part of the appeal of Favors is that he'll have one year left at only 12 mil.
 

bowiac

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With the benefit of a couple of days, my one regret is they didn't get Noel. I think he's a pretty great fit for this roster, and it doesn't seem like it would have taken much to beat what Dallas offered (unless they really value Justin Anderson a lot, which is plausible). If you trade for him, you don't need to resign him. I'd be willing to burn the 2018 Celtics pick on the option value of Noel.
 

Cellar-Door

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Are we sure the Cs will match any offers on Okynyk? To me he seems like a guy some team like Brooklyn will throw 70 mil over 4 years at, which could leave us quite thin up front since Zeller, Amir and Jerebko are also potentially gone. Part of the appeal of Favors is that he'll have one year left at only 12 mil.
Sure? Nope not at all. Even if they don't Favors isn't good, I'd rather try and run back Amir on another 1 year deal, or sign a free agent, or just bring over Yabusele with Zizic. Trading Avery for a player who isn't good is just an awful idea.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Sure? Nope not at all. Even if they don't Favors isn't good, I'd rather try and run back Amir on another 1 year deal, or sign a free agent, or just bring over Yabusele with Zizic. Trading Avery for a player who isn't good is just an awful idea.
He's still only 25. I wouldn't mind having him on the C's next year but not for AB and not at the expense of maybe being able to sign Hayward, regardless how small that chance is. Plus, I think it is a given Zizic is coming over next year so we may not even need an Amir type anyway.

Are we sure the Cs will match any offers on Okynyk? To me he seems like a guy some team like Brooklyn will throw 70 mil over 4 years at, which could leave us quite thin up front since Zeller, Amir and Jerebko are also potentially gone. Part of the appeal of Favors is that he'll have one year left at only 12 mil.
I'd guess it depends how Olynyk finishes the year. He's been playing a bigger part lately and that part could expand even further. You'd like to see him play more minutes but the dude gets into foul trouble a lot. He's also kinda been the same player since he joined the league. If he ends up getting 28-30 minutes the rest of the way, a 14/7/2.5 Olynyk on .550/.400/.700 shooting is going to get paid. He's interesting because part of his results scream exploiting match ups and picking spots, but the reason he only plays 23 minutes a game is fouls.
 

plucy

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a rock and a hard place
If the C's want to maintain max cap space and make the BKN pick going into 17-18, then they will need to lose Olynyk or Bradley or Crowder with another small piece (Rozier, Jackson, rights to Yab or Zizic). And the return can only be future picks. It will be difficult to replace Kelly, but not the others (well, not as much).
 

Cesar Crespo

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I think it's all but a given Avery Bradley is traded this offseason regardless of what happens unless Smart is traded. Marcus Smart is already better and should only get better with age. Rozier isn't nearly as good but next season I doubt the gap is that big. While he isn't the shooter Bradley is, he does some other things better and his shot is still improving. His age 22 season is comparable to AB and AB took the next step forward in his age 23 season. That might be me being slightly high on Rozier and not that high on Avery Bradley though. I think AB's defense is overrated and I think he's closer to a .370 3 point shooter than the .409 he's shooting this year. Rozier is the better passer and rebounder unless you think AB learned how to rebound this offseason and not the system.

Plus if we draft a guard, there's not much need for AB. Hopefully we could get a rim protector for him but gl with that.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think it's all but a given Avery Bradley is traded this offseason regardless of what happens unless Smart is traded. Marcus Smart is already better and should only get better with age. Rozier isn't nearly as good but next season I doubt the gap is that big. While he isn't the shooter Bradley is, he does some other things better and his shot is still improving. His age 22 season is comparable to AB and AB took the next step forward in his age 23 season. That might be me being slightly high on Rozier and not that high on Avery Bradley though. I think AB's defense is overrated and I think he's closer to a .370 3 point shooter than the .409 he's shooting this year. Rozier is the better passer and rebounder unless you think AB learned how to rebound this offseason and not the system.

Plus if we draft a guard, there's not much need for AB. Hopefully we could get a rim protector for him but gl with that.
Don't sleep on Ainge trading IT and keeping the other two. In many ways he probably has the best trade value, but is the hardest to build around.
 

CreedBratton

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Sure? Nope not at all. Even if they don't Favors isn't good, I'd rather try and run back Amir on another 1 year deal, or sign a free agent, or just bring over Yabusele with Zizic. Trading Avery for a player who isn't good is just an awful idea.
You would rather have Amir Johnson than derrick favors? That is absolute insanity talk. Amir is a terrible basketball player and can't be off this team fast enough. Favors is a very solid player, who has had injuries cloud the perception of his skill. There is a question of whether he is too injury prone, same of Bradley. But that deal can't happen until the Hayward situation works itself out. Need max money available for him (obviously).
 

CreedBratton

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Don't sleep on Ainge trading IT and keeping the other two. In many ways he probably has the best trade value, but is the hardest to build around.
One problem is there will be a riot if Thomas is traded. Most loved Celtic since Bird left outside of Pierce & KG.
 

bowiac

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I'm with Cellar-Door on Amir being at least roughly as good as Favors. They have different skillsets, and I can see the case that Favors would be a better fit for the Celtics, but Amir is a good player. They're close enough that I wouldn't consider Favors to be a meaningful upgrade, even with Amir getting another year older.
 

Cellar-Door

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You would rather have Amir Johnson than derrick favors? That is absolute insanity talk. Amir is a terrible basketball player and can't be off this team fast enough. Favors is a very solid player, who has had injuries cloud the perception of his skill. There is a question of whether he is too injury prone, same of Bradley. But that deal can't happen until the Hayward situation works itself out. Need max money available for him (obviously).
Yeah I definitely would, especially if I can get Amir for just money and favors would cost me assets, I'd prefer to have better than either, but if those are my choices it's no contest. Favors is a small amount better as a rebounder, he might be a bit better on D, but it's pretty close and Favors is a TERRIBLE offensive player. He's really really bad on that end, and his incompetence makes his team worse whenever he's on the floor. Ideally you replace Amir with Zizc and either bring back Olynyk or add another big.
 

Cesar Crespo

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If they really need height, I could see Zizic and Yabusele on the C's next year. At the very least, both will be playing in Maine and a phone call away. I guess Yabusele could be stashed again but he needs to play against much better competition.
 

Cellar-Door

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One problem is there will be a riot if Thomas is traded. Most loved Celtic since Bird left outside of Pierce & KG.
I doubt Danny cares, also I doubt it lasts long. As long as the team plays well (also if they trade him they probably do it to bring in a star). The reasonable fans recognize that paying an all offense 5'8" guy who relies on his quickness 35-40M a year well into his 30s is a bad idea. The mouthbreathing contingent will be fine if they win, and honestly... who gives a shit if they're angry on talk radio, the tickets will still sell.
 

BigSoxFan

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I doubt Danny cares, also I doubt it lasts long. As long as the team plays well (also if they trade him they probably do it to bring in a star). The reasonable fans recognize that paying an all offense 5'8" guy who relies on his quickness 35-40M a year well into his 30s is a bad idea. The mouthbreathing contingent will be fine if they win, and honestly... who gives a shit if they're angry on talk radio, the tickets will still sell.
The Celtics only have to pay Isaiah what the market dictates. Every other team will have the exact same reservations. He's going to be a 29 year-old 5'8 PG when he hits FA. I think the Celtics will be able to retain him cheaper than most expect.
 

Cellar-Door

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The Celtics only have to pay Isaiah what the market dictates. Every other team will have the exact same reservations. He's going to be a 29 year-old 5'8 PG when he hits FA. I think the Celtics will be able to retain him cheaper than most expect.
There's always one dumb team that sees POINTS PER GAME! and a GM trying to save his job or an owner asking for a splash. I bet he gets maxed or close to it by someone.
 

The Mort Report

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There's always one dumb team that sees POINTS PER GAME! and a GM trying to save his job or an owner asking for a splash. I bet he gets maxed or close to it by someone.
Then let that team overpay him and have a built in reason why he was not retained. Any well run team knows you won't win with him as the first option, and he really should be the 3rd behind a 2/3 and a 4/5. Would I hate to lose him ? Absolutely, the guy bleeds green and I hope he finishes his career here. But if he chases money over rings, something I actually think he wouldn't do, then thanks for making me feel tall