That was then: Celebrating what was

Super Nomario

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Based on past moves -- Collins, Jones, Mankins, Seymour, Milloy, -- my fear would be that Gronk and DMac are the likeliest victims.
I don't think the economics work for Gronk or DMac this offseason, but they are 2018 candidates.

Butler is a guy I could see getting the Collins / Jones treatment. He's definitely earned a big deal but the Patriots haven't tended to sign cornerbacks to big money. They used a high pick on Cyrus Jones and traded for Eric Rowe and have a couple other young guys in Justin Coleman and Jonathan Jones. They could bring Ryan back on a middleish deal, draft a CB in the first or second round, and trade Butler for something valuable (a second?).
 

BigSoxFan

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Ghost and/or Nink?
Would Nink really count? We all kind of expect him to be gone and he really isn't a huge part of the team anymore - more of a situational guy at this point. Gost certainly would qualify in my book. I think Solder would as well.
 

E5 Yaz

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Would Nink really count? We all kind of expect him to be gone and he really isn't a huge part of the team anymore - more of a situational guy at this point.
Point ceded. Nomario's scenario on Butler, meanwhile, is fascinating/chilling
 

jsinger121

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I don't think the economics work for Gronk or DMac this offseason, but they are 2018 candidates.

Butler is a guy I could see getting the Collins / Jones treatment. He's definitely earned a big deal but the Patriots haven't tended to sign cornerbacks to big money. They used a high pick on Cyrus Jones and traded for Eric Rowe and have a couple other young guys in Justin Coleman and Jonathan Jones. They could bring Ryan back on a middleish deal, draft a CB in the first or second round, and trade Butler for something valuable (a second?).
Butler. Are you kidding me? He is an elite corner and someone they would easily give the money to since he is young, plays his ass off and doesn't complain. He is not someone you dump for a second round pick considering he will at least get a first round restricted free agent tender. He is a building block to the defense. The Pats haven't signed anyone to big money at corner because they haven't had anyone as good as Butler since possibly Ty Law or Asante Samuel after that. Butler is also a much better player than Samuel was.
 

BigSoxFan

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Butler. Are you kidding me? He is an elite corner and someone they would easily give the money to since he is young, plays his ass off and doesn't complain. He is not someone you dump for a second round pick considering he will at least get a first round restricted free agent tender. He is a building block to the defense. The Pats haven't signed anyone to big money at corner because they haven't had anyone as good as Butler since possibly Ty Law or Asante Samuel after that. Butler is also a much better player than Samuel was.
I'm not looking forward to the future "Malcolm, GO!" thread...

Jokes aside, I think he certainly qualifies as a possibility, albeit hopefully a remote one. At the end of the day, we have no idea how any player is viewed by BB and staff. I would like to think that Butler will be the next McCourty because he's absolutely earned it and is basically everything you can hope for in a CB. But we don't know what his or his agent's demands are. There is always potential for a divorce no matter who the player is.
 

jsinger121

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I'm not looking forward to the future "Malcolm, GO!" thread...

Jokes aside, I think he certainly qualifies as a possibility, albeit hopefully a remote one. At the end of the day, we have no idea how any player is viewed by BB and staff. I would like to think that Butler will be the next McCourty because he's absolutely earned it and is basically everything you can hope for in a CB. But we don't know what his or his agent's demands are. There is always potential for a divorce no matter who the player is.
Every year the cap is going up. Its time to stop dicking around with young top talent and pay them fair market value.
 

Ed Hillel

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Every year the cap is going up. Its time to stop dicking around with young top talent and pay them fair market value.
I mean "dicking around" has done the team ok. But I do agree they are at a point where they have to pick a few players and spend market value. BB has done so well managing the cap that there is a significant surplus, and letting that just sit around doesn't do much good. Butler seems like the obvious choice to start with, then maybe Hightower, though I wouldn't be totally stunned to see someone like Ryan or Adouye get it instead. Harmon, too. Hightower is getting up there for LB age and he's hurt all the time. If someone gives him guaranteed money that keep him a significant cap hit for 4 years, I can't be too upset if they let him walk.
 

Super Nomario

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Butler. Are you kidding me? He is an elite corner and someone they would easily give the money to since he is young, plays his ass off and doesn't complain. He is not someone you dump for a second round pick considering he will at least get a first round restricted free agent tender. He is a building block to the defense. The Pats haven't signed anyone to big money at corner because they haven't had anyone as good as Butler since possibly Ty Law or Asante Samuel after that. Butler is also a much better player than Samuel was.
I don't really get the "are you kidding me?" reaction after we just saw them trade Collins and Jones (and Hightower might walk, too). Nothing's sacred here.

Flipping it around, I think a lot of the reasons you list are reasons why Butler might not be long for the Patriots. On the open market, what does he get? North of $12 MM / year? $14 or $15 (what Josh Norman signed for last offseason)? If he's interested in maximizing his earnings, I have a hard time seeing the Patriots going in that neighborhood for a cornerback. They just do not value the position that highly in terms of their economic and draft investment (the Patriots spent less than $5 MM in CBs in 2016; only Carolina spent less. They were 32nd in 2015). I expect it will come down to:
1) can they leverage the RFA year of control to sign Butler to a below-market deal?
2) If no, they still might decide to let him play out the year and then let him walk for a comp pick.
3) If they think he might be a headache in a walk year (I don't have any reason to think that, but I wouldn't have had any reason to think that for Jones or Collins, either) or they like the return better than the comp pick, they could trade him.

I wouldn't be surprised by any of the three possibilities, frankly.
 
Apr 7, 2006
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But did Collins and Chandler Jones qualify as "sacred?" The latter was a somewhat inconsistent pass rusher, who wound up shirtless and high at the police department, and the former was freelancing and rumored to be a bit unhappy in the locker room about his contract situation. All we've seen Butler do is work his ass off and stay relatively silent - and at a motime r valuable positin.

Not saying you're necessarily wrong that he'll be gone, but I'm not sure the comparison is on the nose.

Edit: fucking autocorrect and clarity, like always
 

Stitch01

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I don't really get the "are you kidding me?" reaction after we just saw them trade Collins and Jones (and Hightower might walk, too). Nothing's sacred here.

Flipping it around, I think a lot of the reasons you list are reasons why Butler might not be long for the Patriots. On the open market, what does he get? North of $12 MM / year? $14 or $15 (what Josh Norman signed for last offseason)? If he's interested in maximizing his earnings, I have a hard time seeing the Patriots going in that neighborhood for a cornerback. They just do not value the position that highly in terms of their economic and draft investment (the Patriots spent less than $5 MM in CBs in 2016; only Carolina spent less. They were 32nd in 2015). I expect it will come down to:
1) can they leverage the RFA year of control to sign Butler to a below-market deal?
2) If no, they still might decide to let him play out the year and then let him walk for a comp pick.
3) If they think he might be a headache in a walk year (I don't have any reason to think that, but I wouldn't have had any reason to think that for Jones or Collins, either) or they like the return better than the comp pick, they could trade him.

I wouldn't be surprised by any of the three possibilities, frankly.
I don't get it either. Ive moved towards the pay Butler/building block camp, but if they did something like the Jones trade and used the money/assets for something else it would be completely within the Patriots MO.
 

Ed Hillel

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What's the goal here, though? To win the Superbowl 35 million under the cap? Fully understanding that the cap rolls over, eventually you have to spend the money somewhere or it just sits there, not to mention you'll miss the mandated the cap floor over time. If not Butler, then who? It won't be a high-priced free agent, I'd assume, for the same logic as letting Butler walk.

This isn't something I say most years, btw, because the strategy has worked tremendously. At this point in time, though, there's just too much cap space to not use some of it on at least 1-2 market deals.
 

InstaFace

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Well, one alternative BB has preferred through the years is mid-tier FAs for a couple million each, winning the bidding war for the players he really wants, and not having many players who are top-5 at their position (arguably we only have 2), but being far deeper on roster numbers 10-46.

The salary cap has created a stars-and-scrubs salary divide in the league, and the NFL middle class - people who are worth a few million a year but neither 8 figures nor the veteran minimum - has gotten smaller, with fewer suitors having less and less cap space. That's the market inefficiency BB has exploited to bring us, for example, Marty Bennett and Danny Amendola. So, why get 2 premium players at market rate, when you can get 5-6 very good role players and boost depth for the same money?

Bill has kept an awful lot of his powder dry over the years, and I'm not sure I can recall him really splurging on any given year. But he does assiduously play every game he can conceive of (or convince players/agents to play along with) to create more space. Some of that space may just be profit-taking by Kraft, but I'm certain Belichick has carte blanche to spend it where and when he sees the opportunity.
 

MuppetAsteriskTalk

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I believe they've always rolled any excess cap space to the next year, so I don't think there's been any profit-taking by Kraft at the expense of cap space. At least not in recent years.
 

InstaFace

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yes that's true in a cap-accounting sense, but in a cashflow sense that money wasn't spent by the organization, and is available for capital projects or distributions as the Krafts' whims may prefer. No other spending of the team's revenues will affect what room they have under the salary cap.

Back on topic to celebrate What Is, this is a few years old at this point - the Situational Football lecture to (I think) Marquise Hill could certainly have a clip of a certain famous incident appended to it now - but it's still an amazing compilation of the wit and wisdom of BB:

 

Hoodie Sleeves

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What's the goal here, though? To win the Superbowl 35 million under the cap? Fully understanding that the cap rolls over, eventually you have to spend the money somewhere or it just sits there, .
This argument doesn't make sense though - they spend the money every year.

Not spending it on Butler doesn't mean they're not going to spend it at all.

but in a cashflow sense that money wasn't spent by the organization, and is available for capital projects or distributions as the Krafts' whims may prefer. No other spending of the team's revenues will affect what room they have under the salary cap.
You're going to have to explain what you mean by this further. Pretty much every dollar a team can give to a player is accounted for in the cap. The Patriots have spent almost everything they could. There's no extra money that they could have spent - its ALL been rolled over since rolling cap space has been allowed.

They're one of the few teams in the NFL that hasn't done any profit-taking. The argument that they don't spend money just isn't true.
 

Dollar

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I always loved the old clips with Belichick telling Bruschi, Seymour, and Wilfork all kinds of stories about when he used to coach the 80's Giants with LT, Pepper Johnson, and Carl Banks. And it just got me thinking that these days, he's probably telling similar stories about the 01-04 Pats defense to the team today.

It really hit home about 2/3 of the way through that video, when Belichick brings in Russ Francis to talk to the 2003 team, and Belichick points to Francis's banner and says, "Someday a couple of you guys are going to have banners hanging from that stadium too." It sounded almost hard to believe the first time I saw it, but now I'm sitting here wondering if we have enough room in that stadium for all the banners that will need to go up soon enough.
 

InstaFace

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The Patriots were:
- at the median of teams in cap carryover into this coming year ($5.3M)
- ...but were near the bottom in carryover into 2016,
- $7.0M into 2012, right at the median. I can't easily find figures from other recent years.

...ok, so it seems I was wrong on that one, they have not carried over an exorbitant amount year over year.

However, one area the Pats excel at is cash-to-cap ratio, in which they've apparently been among the bottom in the NFL for a number of years running. That means they have done basically as little as possible of punting cap space to the following year in order to squeeze in a little extra cash spending to get players now; they have done without any cap shenanigans of that variety, which means they are the least hamstrung by future promises of basically any club in the NFL. That's the reason for their very high cap space right now, not just spending down to the 95% long-term cap floor as I had assumed.

So I'd say it's likely they will continue to take their medicine up front and not push cap hits into the future. Either way, Ed Hillel appears doomed to continue his laments, as well.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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The Patriots also have carried over all unused space since they've been allowed to (2012) - whereas most teams have not. The Patriots 5.xM rollover amount (of 675M worth of cap over that time) means they've spent 99.3% of what they've been allowed to so far. They just don't do the sort of stupid stuff that gets teams like the Jets in trouble (they're over the cap, and terrible).

Every once in a while a team doesn't carry over everything - Denver left $267K behind in 2015 - apparently the carryover number is due at the end of the regular season and they were worried in the playoffs about someone stealing one of their practice squad players and wanted enough to promote him to the roster left in their salary cap.
 

Ed Hillel

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This argument doesn't make sense though - they spend the money every year.

Not spending it on Butler doesn't mean they're not going to spend it at all.
I understand they usually spend, but the point is that they are in arguably the best cap shape they've ever been in. They have lots of money for relatively few position needs and are set up nicely moving forward. At some point you gotta throw down a market contract or two.
 

DJnVa

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s, and not having many players who are top-5 at their position (arguably we only have 2)
I don't know I could argue for 5: Brady, Gronk, Hightower, McCourty, Butler. To say nothing of Slater.

However, Hightower and Butler aren't being paid like that. Yet. So, perhaps your point holds.
 

Euclis20

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I don't know I could argue for 5: Brady, Gronk, Hightower, McCourty, Butler. To say nothing of Slater.

However, Hightower and Butler aren't being paid like that. Yet. So, perhaps your point holds.
If that's the way we look at it, neither is Brady (18th among QBs in 2016 cap hit) or Gronk (6th among TEs in 2016 cap hit).
 

DJnVa

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If that's the way we look at it, neither is Brady (18th among QBs in 2016 cap hit) or Gronk (6th among TEs in 2016 cap hit).
Well sure, but they aren't on rookie contracts.

I was more making the point that you can argue the Pats do have more than 2 top 5 players, the unique salary of Brady aside.
 

Ed Hillel

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If that's the way we look at it, neither is Brady (18th among QBs in 2016 cap hit) or Gronk (6th among TEs in 2016 cap hit).
I'd argue Gronk is absolutely fair market right now, given you can expect him to miss half the season. Brady is obviously an insane steal.
I don't know I could argue for 5: Brady, Gronk, Hightower, McCourty, Butler. To say nothing of Slater.

However, Hightower and Butler aren't being paid like that. Yet. So, perhaps your point holds.
In addition to Slater, I think there's an argument Trey Flowers could be added to the list as arguably a top 5 guy if we're projecting for 2017. Were there 5 interior linemen better than him the second half of 2016? He's hitting his physical prime now, as well, and should have plenty of room to grow.
 

Euclis20

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I'd argue Gronk is absolutely fair market right now, given you can expect him to miss half the season. Brady is obviously an insane steal.
Certainly could argue that. I'd disagree, as despite the games missed, he's ranked 2nd, 1st, 1st, 11th, 1st, 2nd and 4th among TEs in DYAR in his 7 years as a pro. Since 2011, he's ranked 29th, 17th, 21st, 9th, 2nd and 6th in cap hit.

His cap hit in 2017 is currently 9th among TEs. I'm fairly confident that there aren't 8 TEs more valuable than him right now, even taking into account the injuries.

*edit - Check back in 2018, when his cap hit is currently #1 among TEs.
 

Van Everyman

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Interesting decision to run on third and eight or so with 2:20 left in the game when a first down wins. There's no real clock advantage there. The two minute warning is coming up either way. Pretty conservative. Forgot about that. Also forgot how bad the punt was, though in retrospect a better punt maybe doesn't leave enough time if the Rams score.

Madden's commentary is a bit too conservative. With the Rams having no timeouts, the Patiots could have kneeled at any time and run at least 40 seconds or so. It wasn't a consideration until third down, which never came.
What a great game this was. On the first point, I agree – its kind of amazing to think how conservative the Pats were on their second to last drive, running on third and long, particularly in light of the fact that the final drive a few minutes later took ginormous balls to call.

We all make fun of Madden now for saying he should just take a knee but after 17 years of 4th and 2, punts out of the end zone and what not we forget how conservative the game has been for most of its history (and to Madden's credit, he immediately says that what Brady did on that last drive gave him goosebumps).
 

E5 Yaz

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Yes, Virginia, there is a Johnny Foxborough:

Robert Kraft greeted them in his office and the Patriots owner told Mark that he knew his story, and that he was proud of his resiliency. They visited the trophy room where, at the time, there were four sterling silver footballs waiting for a fifth, and they toured the locker room. The Patriots were out on the practice field, completing their final session at home, so Clagg didn’t get to see Brady, who was embedded in his preparation routine. But they ran into Rob Gronkowski, the star tight end on injured reserve. When he learned the identity of the visitor, Gronkowski chuckled heartily and said, “Wait until Tom hears Johnny Foxborough is here!”

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/02/21/nfl-tom-brady-new-england-patriots-johnny-foxborough-mark-clagg-foxborough-warriors
 

8slim

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Yes, Virginia, there is a Johnny Foxborough:

Robert Kraft greeted them in his office and the Patriots owner told Mark that he knew his story, and that he was proud of his resiliency. They visited the trophy room where, at the time, there were four sterling silver footballs waiting for a fifth, and they toured the locker room. The Patriots were out on the practice field, completing their final session at home, so Clagg didn’t get to see Brady, who was embedded in his preparation routine. But they ran into Rob Gronkowski, the star tight end on injured reserve. When he learned the identity of the visitor, Gronkowski chuckled heartily and said, “Wait until Tom hears Johnny Foxborough is here!”

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/02/21/nfl-tom-brady-new-england-patriots-johnny-foxborough-mark-clagg-foxborough-warriors
What a great story, thanks for posting it. I grew up in town so the "Johnny Foxboro" stuff cracks me up.
 

Al Zarilla

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Wasn't sure which thread to put this in, but here is the Gang Green SB 51 thread, if you've got a half hour or so and want to see it from another side. A lot of hatred for the Pats but also a lot of admissions about the GOAT QB and GOAT coach when it was over. Had to laugh about this post and how we always think Jim Nantz hates the Pats:

I'm not counting out the Cheats unless it's 60-0, but this is NOT what I expected. Jim Nantz, that shill, is probably standing on a chair somewhere with a rope around his neck getting ready to end it all.

http://forums.jetnation.com/topic/131181-super-bowl-game-thread/
 

Bunt4aTriple

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Wasn't sure which thread to put this in, but here is the Gang Green SB 51 thread, if you've got a half hour or so and want to see it from another side. A lot of hatred for the Pats but also a lot of admissions about the GOAT QB and GOAT coach when it was over. Had to laugh about this post and how we always think Jim Nantz hates the Pats:

I'm not counting out the Cheats unless it's 60-0, but this is NOT what I expected. Jim Nantz, that shill, is probably standing on a chair somewhere with a rope around his neck getting ready to end it all.

http://forums.jetnation.com/topic/131181-super-bowl-game-thread/
The fact that there were multiple Best.Superbowl.Ever. posts tells you everything you need to know about that pathetic fanbase.
 

Unin10D

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Just about halfway through but the, "TD Cheats, but missed FG, hardy-har. How does it feel to be the Jets you cheating pricks?" had me spitting up beer. What a pathetic fanbase
 

Al Zarilla

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Just about halfway through but the, "TD Cheats, but missed FG, hardy-har. How does it feel to be the Jets you cheating pricks?" had me spitting up beer. What a pathetic fanbase
Any time a team centers the ball and then the guy tries to kick the ball through the H arrangement, it's called a FG, right?
 

BigSoxFan

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I was fortunate enough to be in the Broncos section for that one. They all thought they were going to witness a massacre. So I guess they were still right about that.
 

Koufax

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From the GangGreen thread:

Well it is what it is. Bill Bellichick basically scribbles F*ck The NYJ on a napkin and then goes to our rival to create the greatest dynasty in sports ever for us to suffer through for the next 20 years​
 

tims4wins

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I despise you Mo Lewis

That's how I always pictured the Jets losing a Super Bowl.


The Dolphins are our rival. We don't beat the Pats enough to call them our rival

Having the Pats in our division is the closest we've come to greatness since 1969
 

Van Everyman

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On a slightly different note, if anyone here has the opportunity they should *absolutely* go to the Pats HOF at Gillette. I took my 9 y/o daughter, who is a giant Pats fan with a friend and his daughter the other day and it is just glorious – better than the NBA and Cooperstown exhibits I've seen (Cooperstown, the plaque hall excepted, is utter shit BTW).

One floor dedicated to the history of the team and a surprisingly well done IMAX-style movie about what the team means to New England, and another floor that has really well done interactive stuff – jumping the snap with Tedy Bruschi, being in the huddle with Brady, Moss and Koppen, and even mimicking the Butler INT. Some great (Raytheon-designed) stuff about the physics of football, some educational stuff and a ton of great NFL Films edited in various ways to capture various insights into the dynasty.

They obviously have put a ton of money into it – and I can't imagine Canton comes close. And the best part of all is that it will be worth going again once they update it all for Lombardi #5 (as of now all they have is White's jersey and shoes I believe).
 

Bowhemian

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I took my son there 3 years ago, and I agree it is a must see for Pats fans. Lots of very cool displays and memorabilia from important Pats events.

I really like the display they have for local high school teams. My sons team won the state championship in 2013. When we were there in spring 2014, I was surprised to see a jersey from our school, as well as the box score on a display. I was impressed, but probably a bit biased since I also coached that team.
IMG_0839.JPG IMG_0840.JPG
 

DJnVa

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Yes, Virginia, there is a Johnny Foxborough:

Robert Kraft greeted them in his office and the Patriots owner told Mark that he knew his story, and that he was proud of his resiliency. They visited the trophy room where, at the time, there were four sterling silver footballs waiting for a fifth, and they toured the locker room. The Patriots were out on the practice field, completing their final session at home, so Clagg didn’t get to see Brady, who was embedded in his preparation routine. But they ran into Rob Gronkowski, the star tight end on injured reserve. When he learned the identity of the visitor, Gronkowski chuckled heartily and said, “Wait until Tom hears Johnny Foxborough is here!”

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/02/21/nfl-tom-brady-new-england-patriots-johnny-foxborough-mark-clagg-foxborough-warriors

The best part is that his high school highlight video is set to Billy Squier's "Stroke"
 

BaseballJones

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2001-02 to 2016-17 (less 2008). 15 Seasons with the Belichick-Brady combo at the helm of the Patriots.

14 of those seasons in the playoffs (93.3% of the time)
14 of those seasons with divisional titles (93.3% of the time)
12 of those seasons with 11 or more wins (80.0% of the time)
11 of those seasons with 12 or more wins (73.3% of the time)
11 of those seasons making it to the AFCCG (73.3% of the time)
7 of those seasons making it to the Super Bowl (46.7% of the time)
6 of those seasons with 13 or more wins (40.0% of the time)
5 of those seasons winning the Super Bowl (33.3% of the time)
5 of those seasons with 14 or more wins (33.3% of the time)
0 of those seasons with fewer than 9 wins (0.0% of the time)

Basically, 3 of every 4 years they're playing for the conference championship. Nearly half of their seasons together, they're in the Super Bowl. One out of every three seasons they're winning a Lombardi.

And never, ever having anything other than a winning season. Only missing the playoffs once, and that on a tiebreaker.

It's just unbelievable.
 

tims4wins

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The Steelers, under Tomlin, have gone to 3 of 10 AFC Championship games. That is pretty good. If they go to the next 7 in a row they still won't have matched BB's 11 in 17 years.
 

mwonow

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2001-02 to 2016-17 (less 2008). 15 Seasons with the Belichick-Brady combo at the helm of the Patriots.

14 of those seasons in the playoffs (93.3% of the time)
14 of those seasons with divisional titles (93.3% of the time)
12 of those seasons with 11 or more wins (80.0% of the time)
11 of those seasons with 12 or more wins (73.3% of the time)
11 of those seasons making it to the AFCCG (73.3% of the time)
7 of those seasons making it to the Super Bowl (46.7% of the time)
6 of those seasons with 13 or more wins (40.0% of the time)
5 of those seasons winning the Super Bowl (33.3% of the time)
5 of those seasons with 14 or more wins (33.3% of the time)
0 of those seasons with fewer than 9 wins (0.0% of the time)

Basically, 3 of every 4 years they're playing for the conference championship. Nearly half of their seasons together, they're in the Super Bowl. One out of every three seasons they're winning a Lombardi.

And never, ever having anything other than a winning season. Only missing the playoffs once, and that on a tiebreaker.

It's just unbelievable.
The Steelers, under Tomlin, have gone to 3 of 10 AFC Championship games. That is pretty good. If they go to the next 7 in a row they still won't have matched BB's 11 in 17 years.
Thanks for these. I'm still chuckling. Cackling, maybe...
 

TFP

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2007
20,370
I still can't get over the fact that no team in their division has had a better record than them in any season since 2000. It legitimately could be 20 years total before they don't have the most (or tied for most) wins in the AFC East.
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
26,951
Newton
That article makes me wonder how long it will be until there is a salary cap or term limits for head coaches ... you know, in the name of parity.