The sixers and building a winner

Status
Not open for further replies.

DannyDarwinism

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 7, 2007
4,883
Nah, it was just a joke about the deferred Zizic takeover, or as I like to call it (as of right now, anyway), "Upping the Ante: 2018". Maybe the spoiler didn't show up posting from my phone.

Though it does raise an interesting question: going forward, assuming a healthy Process, who do you choose between him, Davis and KAT?
 

bowiac

Caveat: I know nothing about what I speak
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 18, 2003
12,945
New York, NY
You think he's gonna be better than Anthony Davis or Towns?
Obviously a guess, but I'd take him ahead of both (barring injury). I'm reading a fair amount into how much he's improved just from the start of this season already. He's already 22, but still a rookie, so I'm guessing his growth curve is still pretty steep from just actually playing games.

I don't feel strongly of course.
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
I think he's better than towns now personally, he's a LOT better defensively. But I wouldn't fight you on a different view.

Davis has a concerning injury profile but if you're ignoring that I'd go Davis, embiid Kat. But I think they'll all close enough for most orders to be fair.

Best in the East.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Nah, it was just a joke about the deferred Zizic takeover, or as I like to call it (as of right now, anyway), "Upping the Ante: 2018". Maybe the spoiler didn't show up posting from my phone.

Though it does raise an interesting question: going forward, assuming a healthy Process, who do you choose between him, Davis and KAT?
Quick segway. It hasn't been discussed on this board but at CelticsNuts I've been drooling for months at the leap Zizic is taking at age 19 both in his ball skills and physicals. He is going to be an impact rotational player for us out of the block next year. I'm legitimately giddy about him.
 

Pxer

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2007
1,702
Maine
Quick segway. It hasn't been discussed on this board but at CelticsNuts I've been drooling for months at the leap Zizic is taking at age 19 both in his ball skills and physicals. He is going to be an impact rotational player for us out of the block next year. I'm legitimately giddy about him.
I realize Zizic is going to be ready for the NBA next year. No way they stash him another year to delay his clock, right?
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
I realize Zizic is going to be ready for the NBA next year. No way they stash him another year to delay his clock, right?
I'd have to say no chance. He's at worst ready to assume backup minutes much like Jokic did immediately upon entering the league. Here's hoping for a similar leap for Zizic. I still wanted Ainge to draft BOTH Z-Bigs.....Zizic and Zubac (over Yabu) so we'll see how that plays out.

Back to topic.....of the three being discussed I'd have to place Towns a solid 3rd on that list. When you begin checking off the boxes you cannot ignore that he is the least athletic of the three (by comparison still plus for position) and by far the worst defensively where the other two shine. Embiid has the potential to surpass Davis as he is more explosive but right now flip a coin imo. What's interesting is that as the league becomes more guard oriented we have some ridiculously offensively skilled young bigs still not yet in their prime. They are still coming from overseas and Ayton is still in HS!
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
When does Jokic force himself into the conversation? I'd guess if he keeps it up all season, that would be when. I mentioned this in the NBA thread, but over his last 11 games 23.5ppg, 10.3rpg, 4.9apg, .624/.462/.816 shooting in 29.8mpg. Over his last 21, 19.7/9.9/4.6 on .647/.441/.813 shooting in 27.2mpg. Still only 21 games, but if he keeps it up he's the best shooter and passer of the 4. Jokic is quite foul prone though. The Nuggets are 11-10 in those games, and have won 4 of their last 5. I guess it also depends on how you classify big men. Cousins, Porzingis et al. Even Giannis is 6'11.

There are so many great big men in the game right now it's almost reminiscent of the 80-90's with Shaq, Mourning, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Parrish, etc.

I just wonder what will happen when Embiid starts to play 34-34 minutes a game and how he holds up. He's averaging 25.3mpg and hasn't played 30 minutes or more all year so he can probably exert more energy on the court when he's out there. Still, the fact he is in discussion for best big in the game is a lot better than those rumors of him being 300 lbs and never playing. He's already accomplished more than Greg Oden.
 
Last edited:

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,731
There are so many great big men in the game right now it's almost reminiscent of the 80-90's with Shaq, Mourning, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Parrish, etc.
Admittedly the new group are all still very young, but it's interesting that the earlier group you cite all won a ton of games, whereas the new group doesn't seem to have much connection to winning yet. This is certainly partly because of their youth, but also shows how much the game has changed, with Draymond Green and Tristan Thompson playing the 5 at crunch time for the best teams in the league (Green is awesome but hardly a traditional 5).
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Admittedly the new group are all still very young, but it's interesting that the earlier group you cite all won a ton of games, whereas the new group doesn't seem to have much connection to winning yet. This is certainly partly because of their youth, but also shows how much the game has changed, with Draymond Green and Tristan Thompson playing the 5 at crunch time for the best teams in the league (Green is awesome but hardly a traditional 5).
Remember that all of the older guys listed in the post above had played either 3 or 4 seasons of high level college basketball competing against other 3-4 year college players without the one and done rule. So when you say todays guys are young it very true in that they are REALLY young compared to that other group.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Yeah, it's really hard to classify big men now because people over 6'10 are no longer limited to PF or C. The traditional 5 doesn't even really exist any longer and as you alluded to, they are all really young. Even Cousins is still 26. None of them have really had talent alongside them either.

Myles Turner (20) is another guy who doesn't fit the traditional mold and looks ridiculous. Maybe it's just today's NBA with their emphasis on offense and pace of game that people are putting up stats we aren't used to seeing. Kinda like back in the day when Denver would average 120+ points a game. Then we had to endure the Bad Boy era where no one scored over 100.

Plus, like I said earlier, does Giannis qualify as a big man? Where is the cut off? Is it height or is it position? Then is Anthony Davis a PF or a Center? Tim Duncan and Pau Gasol won a bunch of titles too so while none of the current group of won anything, big men have still won some titles.

edit: Speaking of which, Nuggets at Wolves tonight. Too bad Jokic's ankle is bothering him a little.
 
Last edited:

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
I'm not one to cheer an injury but the kings pick swap is looking a lot more interesting with gay done for the year. That's a bad team and a boogie check out or injury from being as bad if not worse than the nets.

How the kings through in a pick swap and a pick with zero protection on a salary dump and now sauce is actually worth a roster spot too!

The Lakers, however, look bad. At some point it's going to be worth them tanking to save their top 3 protected pick I would guess, despite what they have said.

Nets worst team in the league.
Heat appear to be full tank so will be close.

Then? Kings, suns, mavs, magic could drop in?
 

sox311

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 30, 2004
1,753
That's what she said.
How the kings through in a pick swap and a pick with zero protection on a salary dump and now sauce is actually worth a roster spot too!

The Lakers, however, look bad. At some point it's going to be worth them tanking to save their top 3 protected pick I would guess, despite what they have said.

You would really think these GMs would learn from Billy King and now Vlade. With the new CBA we won't see many SuperStar players changing teams and King's stupidity and Vlade's following suit, not to mention the Philly/LA pick, there won't be many, if any first round draft picks of non playoff teams being traded in the near future.
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
Both these deals were so crazy.
The nets one was bad from day one but at least they got some big names.

The kings? I have no clue.
When the deal broke sixers fans were like we got stauskas for nothing? For salary that still leaves us under the floor? Nothing else?
Then it was like plus a 2016 swap right. OK well that's not worth much.
And a 2017. Hmm the kings are bad and they could be good by then. Nice freeby.

Then the UNPROTECTED 2019 first was added and I know I was worried what else was going to them as it made zero sense.
And then the full deal was announced and it was all for two stashed second round bigs. Wtf.

I will never understand that deal. They gave up on a first round pick, and two mildly (but not for long) overpaid bench players, and 2016 2017 swap right AND an unprotected 1st to sign Rondo? This has got to be worse than the nets right?

I mean the nets might have had a year or two out of it. Maybe, and it was a desperate move to be relevant for the Brooklyn move. What the kings were thinking? I literally have no idea.
 

sox311

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 30, 2004
1,753
That's what she said.
Well, not only Rondo, they were trying to get Wes Matthews and his single bad Achilles. Hey! He could have helped Rudy Gay if they were teammates today. And after that fell through it was Monta they were after, none worth what they did of course.

That trade is unbelievable for any reason to make it. King and the Nets did get KG, Pierce, Terry and a couple picks back. But Sacramento isn't looking to be giving up a possible first overall pick here, like the Nets may be.

The LAC/CLE Baron Davis trade which got Cleveland Kyrie has to be one of the worst ever outcomes, and you would think no one would ever trade a true unprotected pick after that, then along game Billy and Vlade, I guess...

Crazy... I don't know why any GM would trade a first round pick without the simple protection from it being traded if it is a top two pick. It would be understandable if Danny would trade the Nets pick to Chicago for Jimmy Butler. But if he traded the Memphis pick to Orlando for Biyambo, or any move like that, there would be an automatic top three protection on it one would think, no questions asked.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Well, not only Rondo, they were trying to get Wes Matthews and his single bad Achilles. Hey! He could have helped Rudy Gay if they were teammates today. And after that fell through it was Monta they were after, none worth what they did of course.

That trade is unbelievable for any reason to make it. King and the Nets did get KG, Pierce, Terry and a couple picks back. But Sacramento isn't looking to be giving up a possible first overall pick here, like the Nets may be.

The LAC/CLE Baron Davis trade which got Cleveland Kyrie has to be one of the worst ever outcomes, and you would think no one would ever trade a true unprotected pick after that, then along game Billy and Vlade, I guess...

Crazy... I don't know why any GM would trade a first round pick without the simple protection from it being traded if it is a top two pick. It would be understandable if Danny would trade the Nets pick to Chicago for Jimmy Butler. But if he traded the Memphis pick to Orlando for Biyambo, or any move like that, there would be an automatic top three protection on it one would think, no questions asked.
The answer is really simple if you think about it (in many cases anyway). If a GM is on the hot seat and needs to impact his team immediately the trading partners are well aware of this and recognize the leverage that they have in demanding the pick come with no protection. For the GM, if the deal doesn't bring the desired immediate result he's not likely to be around when that draft pick is made anyway. Many times the fault should be on the owner who approves the deal recognizing that his GM is making the trade with his own best interests in mind and not the best interests of the basketball team.

In King's case I feel strongly that the opposite was true......and that Prokhorov was the one demanding that King make bold moves for the move to Brooklyn. I stopped trying to figure out what is going on in Sacramento a long time ago other than always being a believer that they never were close to having Cousins on the trading block.
 

cheech13

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 5, 2006
1,608
Weren't there claims at the time that Vlade was unaware of the stretch provision or pick protections? Not only that, I believe they thought they had Wes Matthews and/or Monta in the bag when they made the deal but in reality the agents were just using them to drive up their price to other terms. The deal still would have been bad, but if you viewed it as Stauskas, pick swaps and a first rounder for Rondo/Matthews or Monta you could at least buy the logic.

That whole offseason was a mess for the Kings. There was so much turnover in the front office and they lacked a unified vision as to what they were doing.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
51,291
Billy King trading what became the Lillard pick for the right to overpay over-the-hill Gerald Wallace was maybe worse than any of them, at least if you consider each trade at the moment it was made. As mentioned, the KG trade fulfilled its (horribly misguided) purpose and you could hypothetically imagine the Nets maybe staying relevant through the delivery of these picks. Wallace, though, was instantly an insane desperation move to give up a lotto pick (to be fair the top 3 protection was downright savvy by BK standards) for a useless player.

I remember many at the time wishing we had sent them Pierce for that pick.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,470
Somewhere
I don't know if it's the worst all time, but the Bucks trading up for Tractor Traylor when Nowitzki and Pierce were on the board...
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Billy King trading what became the Lillard pick for the right to overpay over-the-hill Gerald Wallace was maybe worse than any of them, at least if you consider each trade at the moment it was made. As mentioned, the KG trade fulfilled its (horribly misguided) purpose and you could hypothetically imagine the Nets maybe staying relevant through the delivery of these picks. Wallace, though, was instantly an insane desperation move to give up a lotto pick (to be fair the top 3 protection was downright savvy by BK standards) for a useless player.

I remember many at the time wishing we had sent them Pierce for that pick.
The crazy thing here is that for years when I lived in NC and saw Gerald play his "prime" years live and in person I was certain that he was the most overrated player in the league. A nice second unit guy or a Crowder role playing type with a starting unit.....but in Charlotte the ball went through him on offense as they had few if any players who could create their own shot and most years he didn't defend the opponents top wing scorer. That was left to the Bogans, Diaw, and others depending on the season. The only year I recall when he did defend the opponents best scorer was the year they had Adam Morrison and Walter Herrmann at the forward positions with him where he was forced to.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Blew a pretty big lead against the Bucks tonight but pulled off the win and they were playing without Embiid.
 
Last edited:

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
On the second day of a back to back with travel. No less.

I don't even know what to do any more.

I was expecting to add two high lottery picks. Right now it COULD be zero if Lakers tank and the kings don't collapse.

Of course then the Lakers is unprotected next year and there is still an unprotected Kings the year after.

I can't believe how fun this team is.
Most passes per game in the league (Boston is second)
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

Internet Cowboy, Turbo Accelerator, tOSU Denier
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
On the second day of a back to back with travel. No less.

I don't even know what to do any more.

I was expecting to add two high lottery picks. Right now it COULD be zero if Lakers tank and the kings don't collapse.

Of course then the Lakers is unprotected next year and there is still an unprotected Kings the year after.

I can't believe how fun this team is.
Most passes per game in the league (Boston is second)
You can't look at it like that. You have to look at it as the team being what it is (going 2 for 2 on the road on back to back nights without Embiid makes me realize that I have no idea what the team is, but let's table that for now) with Ben Simmons about to hop into the roster, and with, at some point, some great picks coming the Sixers way. My lackadaisacal approach to NBA fandom will allow me to hop right on the Sixers bandwagon while keeping an asscheek on the Celtics bandwagon AND always keeping a calm eye towards the Nets bandwagon. But right now, today.....it is hard not to be amped up by the Sixers. I can't imagine a better fit for the city of Philadelphia than Joel Embiid either.
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
I know dude. You take every time that you're getting worse picks because you have potential 2 way superstar, and the main risk to that is injury.
Let alone that you haven't had a minute with your first overall pick.

I'm happy. But I thought embiid was capable of this EVENTUALLY. The fact it's out of the gate is mental. That said the idea of adding Smith/Ntilikina let alone a Fultz was exciting too.
I had the dream of Fultz and Jackson and just silly things resulting.

I think there's a decent chance Ntilikina is in play, which fine with me. Great D (again) and I think he is a great fit.
I'm loving the ride, don't get me wrong.

Saric flashes, and downside is a glue guy for me. I'm also really encouraged by TLC too. He's goign to be good to great defensively

The Embiid/ Noel, Simmons/ Saric/ Ilyasova, Covington/?(imagine Jackson here!), TLC/Sauce, TJ/ Ntilikina type lineups look outright terrifying defensively. The current starting (and excellent) lineup has three defensively excellent players at Centre wing and point. That covers and allows floor spacing at PF and SG (Ilyasova and Sauce). Simmons replacing ilyasova adds an crazy amount of creativity and even more speed and passing, but less spacing.
It's effective, but it needs Embiid to make up for the constant blow bys allowed by sauce and ilyasova.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,502
4.5 games out of the playoff spot and 5 games out of the sixth seed. I guess Brown made clear that Embiid's minute restriction isn't increasing this year (wonder if that changes if they get to the playoffs?).

Is Embiid going to play in the Future's game?
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
I don't know how many more minutes Embiid would be getting anyway. Look at the young big men other than Davis not many big guys get more than 30. I doubt he plays a lot more.
I think the back to back hold out will remain.

All star futures game, probably, a lot of rest around it and he deserves it. If he makes the all star game then no.

If they make the playoffs there are no back to backs, and I would expect a minor minute bump.
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
be interesting to see what they do today. Game got flexxed to national game vs a good opponent and Embiid is questionable. If he plays I think that's indicative that he'll play playoffs etc should they make it. If they hold him out, it means health first and more up in the air
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,502
be interesting to see what they do today. Game got flexxed to national game vs a good opponent and Embiid is questionable. If he plays I think that's indicative that he'll play playoffs etc should they make it. If they hold him out, it means health first and more up in the air
Well I guess they are serious since Embiid played his 28 minutes.

And Embiid is ridiculous. He can face up, hit 3Ps, go right or left (the opening left-hand flush was absurd) but the one sequence where he blocked a shot on one end, got the loose ball, dribbled down the court and then backed down his defender and converted a right hand power move was jaw dropping.
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
He is


Here's that sequence. The block is... Just utterly insane.

There's no way if he's healthy this team isn't going to be decent. If Simmons is good and they can add more... Yeah.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Embiid isn't playing today and possibly not playing tomorrow because he experienced soreness in his left knee following the Rockets game and they are being extra cautious.

If you're a sixers fan, wouldn't you rather he not play in the All Star game had he been selected?
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
Okafor didn't play in the game tonight despite being healthy because he's out of shape? I have no idea what is going on here.
His knee has been hurting from a minor scope last season. Honestly I don't care but it's not going to make him tradable saying shit like this.

TJ mfking McConnell BTW has really got better. He's racking up assists, defense has improved. He's good now. If he had the range to shoot threes he'd be a player. As it is, he's a real bench player. Rumor today is Cleveland is interested in him.
 

oumbi

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 15, 2006
4,167
How bad is a torn meniscus? Too bad for Embiid. I hope it heals quickly and fully.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,502
Okafor didn't play tonight; saw report that he was shaking hands with arena personnel as if he knew a trade was going to happen soon.

Hope NOP is smart enough to include some lottery protections.
How bad is a torn meniscus? Too bad for Embiid. I hope it heals quickly and fully.
Not bad enough for surgery apparently.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Ahh. So it is retroactive. I thought 3-4 weeks from today, which would bring us to Mid March. It would give him a month of games, not sure it's worth it at that point.
 

Imbricus

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 26, 2017
4,810
How bad is a torn meniscus? Too bad for Embiid. I hope it heals quickly and fully.
I think it depends partly on how severe is the tear (obviously), but also which zone of the meniscus it is. The zone that has a good blood supply has the best chance of healing; unfortunately, most of the meniscus doesn't. Still, increasingly the preferred option among most of the population for a meniscus tear is simply rehab; that's been shown in multiple studies to be as effective as surgery. However, for an NBA athlete, the calculus may change. In the old days, they just removed a troublesome meniscus, then got smart and realized it wasn't as superfluous as some thought, as the incidence of arthritis increased in patients who had had this crescent-shaped piece of tissue taken out.
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
Ahh. So it is retroactive. I thought 3-4 weeks from today, which would bring us to Mid March. It would give him a month of games, not sure it's worth it at that point.
Yeah he's missed 9 games already, so add the next few and the all star break. We shall see. If Simmons is back I could see the value in playing time for the two if they are both healthy.
If not? Maybe not. Hard to know to be honest.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.